GUILTY UK - Karen Buckley, 24, Glasgow, Scotland, 12 April 2015 - #2

[blefuscu]

Steady on.

That judge does not seem to have suggested that Karen was drunk, nor that she was to blame. His remarks were directed at Leanne Roberts who was convicted of assaulting another woman outside a bar. The implication is that she (Roberts) was so drunk that she could have easily been abducted herself and killed.

"I find it incredible that young people can get so drunk that they don't even know who they're with," said Judge Cadbury.
"One only has to think about the horrible situation in Glasgow to see how serious this could have been.
"It's very, very worrying how young girls put themselves in such very, very vulnerable positions."
Judge Cadbury told her: "There is a drinking problem because she (Roberts) can't remember what she did.
"That is a problem. I am sure you are now aware of how vulnerable you made yourself."

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/572164/Karen-Buckley-judge-criticised-Glasgow-attack-murse

I can't see anything wrong with his observation. Let's not forget that it's actually a criminal offence to be drunk and disorderly or drunk and incapable in public.

This is not directed to the poster but is about what the judge has said.

"I find it incredible that young people can get so drunk that they don't even know who they're with," said Judge Cadbury.
"One only has to think about the horrible situation in Glasgow to see how serious this could have been.
"It's very, very worrying how young girls put themselves in such very, very vulnerable positions."
Judge Cadbury told her: "There is a drinking problem because she (Roberts) can't remember what she did.
"That is a problem. I am sure you are now aware of how vulnerable you made yourself."

That IS the very essence of victim blaming. Instead of blaming the one who is attacking, the judge blames the "young girls" who have "made themselves vulnerable". Hello? If other people didn't attack, murder and rape others then it wouldn't be an issue. "Young girls" should be able to go out and have a drink without being held accountable for the actions of those who attack them! I don't even drink but am sick of reading of judges and police forces highlighting what women do and how they are "supposed" to act in public, rather than addressing the violence of their attackers.

 

[Alyce]

Police have established that Karen did not leave without her jacket, she had given her jacket to a friend earlier that night because a zip had broken on her dress. The article also says that it is understood the man accused of her murder may have exercised his right to an independent autopsy". Aer Lingus regional have offered to fly Karens remains home to Cork, it is hoped this may happen tomorrow or Friday.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...nd-before-leaving-glasgow-nightclub-1.2185423

That says to me there will be no admission of guilt from AP

 

[zwiebel]

Off topic but a woman's body has been discovered in what looks like quite a public place in Edinburgh. No further details yet though.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...d-Woman-s-body-found-on-footpath-in-Edinburgh

 

[zwiebel]

A Moderator needs to do that, they copy over the first post(s) when they start a new thread. I can ask one to add the link to thread 1, unless someone else wants to. Zwiebs?

Sorry, I wasn't around. Did you ask?

ETA, never mind, I'll ask anyhow, just in case.

 

[Cherwell]

This is not directed to the poster but is about what the judge has said.

"I find it incredible that young people can get so drunk that they don't even know who they're with," said Judge Cadbury.
"One only has to think about the horrible situation in Glasgow to see how serious this could have been.
"It's very, very worrying how young girls put themselves in such very, very vulnerable positions."
Judge Cadbury told her: "There is a drinking problem because she (Roberts) can't remember what she did.
"That is a problem. I am sure you are now aware of how vulnerable you made yourself."

That IS the very essence of victim blaming. Instead of blaming the one who is attacking, the judge blames the "young girls" who have "made themselves vulnerable". Hello? If other people didn't attack, murder and rape others then it wouldn't be an issue. "Young girls" should be able to go out and have a drink without being held accountable for the actions of those who attack them! I don't even drink but am sick of reading of judges and police forces highlighting what women do and how they are "supposed" to act in public, rather than addressing the violence of their attackers.

I give up. I cannot see how anyone can interpret sensible advice as "victim blaming". It would be a perfect world if there were no wicked people out there who get gratification from harming or killing those weaker than themselves. But it isn't a perfect world, and those people exist. It is simply commonsense that others (be they men, women or children) do whatever they can to avoid making themselves more vulnerable to such predators. Would you really encourage your sister or daughter to go out and get blind drunk? Or your brother or son, because bad things happen to young men too?

In this case the aggressor was so drunk that she couldn't remember assaulting her victim. Public drunkenness is an offence and even young girls are not entitled to drink to such excess. In no way was this judge blaming the victim. His remarks were addressed to the aggressor.

I am not going to be drawn into further discussion on this but I despair sometimes.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Off topic but a woman's body has been discovered in what looks like quite a public place in Edinburgh. No further details yet though. QUOTE]


Thanks for adding it to the UK thread - is there anything else current that needs to go on there? I live in fear of missing a case somehow

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-to-cases-on-Websleuths-*No-Discussion*/page4

 

[Irishguy]

That says to me there will be no admission of guilt from AP

That is what I thought, looks like a not guilty plea will happen andd Karens family will be dragged through a trial.

 

[Irishguy]

A bit OT but I'm of Irish background although longterm in Australia (came out as a young child). Is there less stranger murders in Ireland? I do try to read some Irish papers and my impression was that stranger murder of women and children is very unusual. I remember when a little boy in Cork went missing approximately 7 years ago and it was commented how highly unusual it was. In that case it was some young neighbour that killed him in anger and hid the body.

I am aware of the cases you have mentioned especially Jill and Michaela.

Indeed but these events may be rare but they have shown that it can happen to anyone, and both the Jill Meagher case and Karen's case both show the last moments of their lifes on CCTV in the company of their killer and alleged killer in Karens case. Its chilling stuff, Jill was last seen alive on CCTV being pestered by serial rapist and murderer Adrian Bayley and Karen was last seen on CCTV walking away from the club with the man who allegedly beat her repeatedly with a spanner strangled her and disposed of her body in a horrific way. These are two similar cases in the same number of years the CCTV making it very real and chilling for people.

 

[Alice Bernadette]

Indeed but these events may be rare but they have shown that it can happen to anyone, and both the Jill Meagher case and Karen's case both show the last moments of their lifes on CCTV in the company of their killer and alleged killer in Karens case. Its chilling stuff, Jill was last seen alive on CCTV being pestered by serial rapist and murderer Adrian Bayley and Karen was last seen on CCTV walking away from the club with the man who allegedly beat her repeatedly with a spanner strangled her and disposed of her body in a horrific way. These are two similar cases in the same number of years the CCTV making it very real and chilling for people.

I was wondering what the situation was like in Ireland? There have been a few cases in Australia over the years. I live in Perth and remember the Claremont Serial Killer as does everyone that lives here. One of the victims was from an Irish family Ciara Glennon. The Claremont Serial Killer has never been caught. I was just saying that it appears much rarer in Ireland that you get these stranger murders. I get that impression from following the Irish news. I was just wondering if that was the case from someone living in Ireland?

 

[skibaboo]

Sorry, I wasn't around. Did you ask?

ETA, never mind, I'll ask anyhow, just in case.

I completely forgot, sorry Zwiebs!

 

[Irishguy]

I was wondering what the situation was like in Ireland? There have been a few cases in Australia over the years. I live in Perth and remember the Claremont Serial Killer as does everyone that lives here. One of the victims was from an Irish family Ciara Glennon. The Claremont Serial Killer has never been caught. I was just saying that it appears much rarer in Ireland that you get these stranger murders. I get that impression from following the Irish news. I was just wondering if that was the case from someone living in Ireland?

Yes these kinds of random killings of women are rare, we do have a cluster of missing women in the Leinster area in th 1990s, a man was arrested after carrying out an abduction,brutal rape and attempted murder.He was caught after hunters came across him and the woman in the woods. He was a suspect in the disappearances of the other women but it never came to anything. Some info on the link you may find useful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Murphy_(criminal)

 

[blefuscu]

I give up. I cannot see how anyone can interpret sensible advice as "victim blaming". It would be a perfect world if there were no wicked people out there who get gratification from harming or killing those weaker than themselves. But it isn't a perfect world, and those people exist. It is simply commonsense that others (be they men, women or children) do whatever they can to avoid making themselves more vulnerable to such predators. Would you really encourage your sister or daughter to go out and get blind drunk? Or your brother or son, because bad things happen to young men too?

In this case the aggressor was so drunk that she couldn't remember assaulting her victim. Public drunkenness is an offence and even young girls are not entitled to drink to such excess. In no way was this judge blaming the victim. His remarks were addressed to the aggressor.

I am not going to be drawn into further discussion on this but I despair sometimes.

In reply, no I don't "encourage" my daughter to go out and get blind drunk. And I don't "encourage" ANYONE to go out and get blind drunk. However, I don't find it reasonable for a judge to make such comments about Karen Buckley when there is NO evidence that she had made herself "vulnerable" through drink. I find it insensitive to her family and friends.

The judge is obviously talking about making ones-self "vulnerable" and not talking about becoming "aggressive" through the intake of alcohol. My point is that we should focus on the aggressors and remind THEM that they are responsible for their actions. If they attack someone that is their fault. You are right, it's not a perfect world, and sometimes people go out for a few drinks and end up completely wasted. However that gives someone else no right to attack them.

I personally don't care about the woman who was so drunk she can't remember attacking someone. She is the aggressor in that case. What I do care about us victims who are trashed in the media for not fitting nicely into gender or societal stereotypes of what is appropriate behaviour.

 

[Alice Bernadette]

Yes these kinds of random killings of women are rare, we do have a cluster of missing women in the Leinster area in th 1990s, a man was arrested after carrying out an abduction,brutal rape and attempted murder.He was caught after hunters came across him and the woman in the woods. He was a suspect in the disappearances of the other women but it never came to anything. Some info on the link you may find useful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Murphy_(criminal)

Very scary individual. I don't understand how these violent criminals are not locked up indefinitely. Someone like him shouldn't have a passport either especially as he is quite likely a serial killer. I'm sure wherever he goes the police will keep an eye on him but he should be in jail. If he stayed in Ireland and was found out I can imagine a mob giving him some of his own medicine. I'm going to read up more about him.

 

[Irishguy]

Very scary individual. I don't understand how these violent criminals are not locked up indefinitely. Someone like him shouldn't have a passport either especially as he is quite likely a serial killer. I'm sure wherever he goes the police will keep an eye on him but he should be in jail. If he stayed in Ireland and was found out I can imagine a mob giving him some of his own medicine. I'm going to read up more about him.

He has lived in Britain, Holland, Spain amongst others. free movement across the EU, sex offenders and criminals should not be allowed free movement across the EU in my opinion.

 

[Alice Bernadette]

He has lived in Britain, Holland, Spain amongst others. free movement across the EU, sex offenders and criminals should not be allowed free movement across the EU in my opinion.

Absolute madness and it doesn't make sense. People should go to their MPs and complain or write letters. Anyone who has committed a violent crime shouldn't be allowed travel or enter other countries even if they are in the EU.

 

[zwiebel]

Absolute madness and it doesn't make sense. People should go to their MPs and complain or write letters. Anyone who has committed a violent crime shouldn't be allowed travel or enter other countries even if they are in the EU.

Here in Germany I can drive to a street in a town and have one foot in Holland, one in Germany. I've accidentally driven into Spain from France, and the Czech Republic from Germany. Only noticed because the language on the road signs changed. It's impossible to prevent travel unless all the old borders (and more) are resurrected. To anywhere in the EU except the UK that is.

Countries can ban people from setting foot on their territories - the Polish man suspected of raping and killing a little girl in Calais recently was banned from entering France because of a previous crime. It's very hard to enforce those though, especially in countries where cctv is limited so car registration plates aren't captured and flagged up to authorities. A 50-year-old man here ran off with a 13-year-old he'd groomed since she was 11; he's zig-zagged all over Europe successfully evading authorities.

 

[suzyjackson]

Police have established that Karen did not leave without her jacket, she had given her jacket to a friend earlier that night because a zip had broken on her dress. The article also says that it is understood the man accused of her murder may have exercised his right to an independent autopsy". Aer Lingus regional have offered to fly Karens remains home to Cork, it is hoped this may happen tomorrow or Friday.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...nd-before-leaving-glasgow-nightclub-1.2185423

BBM I don't understand this - she did leave without her jacket, why would the police say she didn't?

If the friend had it then she must have left without it. What am I missing here?

 

[sar2them1984]

I think they are trying to differentiate between leaving your jacket as in "she left her jacket in the cloakroon" and giving her jacket to a friend to wear. She did leave without her jacket but it was planned. If that makes sense

 

[suzyjackson]

I think they are trying to differentiate between leaving your jacket as in "she left her jacket in the cloakroon" and giving her jacket to a friend to wear. She did leave without her jacket but it was planned. If that makes sense

OK but I still don't really understand the significance. Originally I guess all the girls would have left together and the jacket would have been returned at a later date but even if the girl who needed the jacket had left at a different time to Karen she might have given the jacket back, she might not. Are they saying there's a connection between the jacket and the murder. I'm just not getting why this is important.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

OK but I still don't really understand the significance. Originally I guess all the girls would have left together and the jacket would have been returned at a later date but even if the girl who needed the jacket had left at a different time to Karen she might have given the jacket back, she might not. Are they saying there's a connection between the jacket and the murder. I'm just not getting why this is important.

No, no connection between the jacket and the murder. It's just that initial reports said she left without her jacket (which led people to believe she only meant to nip out briefly) but then her friends explained one of them broke the zip on her dress and Karen gave her her jacket to cover up.

I don't think its relevant, just solves a minor mystery as to why she might have left her coat behind.