GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

[C.greek]

Wether he raped libby isnt in question she was intoxicated and vulnerable and COULD NOT CONSENT to sex so the only issue is did he murder libby or not.

Oh definitely! There is no question on my part about that! The defence though did not admit to rape.

 

[Deleted member 239019]

For misadventure Libby has to start outside the park in Oak Road.

People can't speculate on her being left close to the river by PR because that hasn't been his defence.

In none of his stories does he take her into the park. So no 'left close to the river' option should be considered really. It is not been presented for some reason. Which is, in itself, suspicious.

Earlier CCTV shows she can barely walk and has often been helped up. The darts players found her lying in snow.

By this point she'd be colder and her blood alcohol is still 3 times the legal drink limit as per the toxicology reports. The terrain is less conducive to walking. She avoids all CCTV.

How do the misadventure theorists get her to the river avoiding CCTV from outside the park?

Who was the man?

I'd like to know this to

 

[Sally4x]

No case will ever yield total proof and 100% certainty tho. Or very few.

The Lindsay Birbeck case had a teenager convicted of murder and the only real evidence was of him moving her body in a wheelie bin and burying it. He had been seen in the vicinity of where she went missing, but nothing more than that. He claimed that someone had told him to move the body.

 

[Lyall0814]

The Lindsay Birbeck case had a teenager convicted of murder and the only real evidence was of him moving her body in a wheelie bin and burying it. He had been seen in the vicinity of where she went missing, but nothing more than that. He claimed that someone had told him to move the body.

I assume there was clear evidence of murder in that case? Juries seem to ask themselves "If the accused didn't do it, who else did?" and if they have no answer to that they'll convict. I can think of a few that are similar. But there is clear evidence of murder for them in those cases at least. We don't have that in this one - if we did I think we'd have had the verdict fairly soon.

 

[Chambo1994]

The Lindsay Birbeck case had a teenager convicted of murder and the only real evidence was of him moving her body in a wheelie bin and burying it. He had been seen in the vicinity of where she went missing, but nothing more than that. He claimed that someone had told him to move the body.

The CCTV was far more conclusive than this case though unfortunately. His own parents took him in.

This does raise a point for me though, not just this case but in general, why in 2021 do we still have such grainy CCTV cameras, you’d think the capability would be there for them all to be HDTV!

Would make things far easier to spot and examine IMO!

 

[Tortoise]

The Lindsay Birbeck case had a teenager convicted of murder and the only real evidence was of him moving her body in a wheelie bin and burying it. He had been seen in the vicinity of where she went missing, but nothing more than that. He claimed that someone had told him to move the body.

LB had most definitely been murdered and he was definitely disposing of her body.

This jury is being asked to consider a lot more to get to that inference. Even I would say more than experts in pathology could say beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

The CCTV was far more conclusive than this case though unfortunately. His own parents took him in.

This does raise a point for me though, not just this case but in general, why in 2021 do we still have such grainy CCTV cameras, you’d think the capability would be there for them all to be HDTV!

Would make things far easier to spot and examine IMO!

We would still have to deal with spiders!

 

[Sooty]

We know what PR did was wrong.

But...
I don’t think PR knew what he did was wrong. (Apart from the fact that he saw it as cheating on his wife)
I don’t think he thought masturbating in the street was wrong. He referred to these crimes as ‘silly’ showing no understanding for how they affected the women.
I don’t think he saw having sex with Libby was wrong.
I don’t think he thought at all that Libby would even remember it the next day so I don’t think he thought there was a risk he would be reported.

ETA what he thinks obviously doesn’t alter the crime - but it does eliminate a possible motive

 

[Ruthbullock]

The CCTV was far more conclusive than this case though unfortunately. His own parents took him in.

This does raise a point for me though, not just this case but in general, why in 2021 do we still have such grainy CCTV cameras, you’d think the capability would be there for them all to be HDTV!

Would make things far easier to spot and examine IMO!

The yeast factory CCTV along the riverbank was really high definition- still didn’t pick anything up apart from headlights over 350m away. Still surprised that it has managed to pick up nothing along the riverbank or even crossing the park, especially as looking in the opposite direction SA could see a person. Whilst LS had dark clothes on, she had bare legs which would stand out against the darker background, likewise PR had a relatively light looking coat on.

 

[Lyall0814]

LB had most definitely been murdered and he was definitely disposing of her body.

This jury is being asked to consider a lot more to get to that inference. Even I would say more than experts in pathology could say beyond a reasonable doubt.

I don't think so. The defence invited the jury to consider Libby might have walked into the river herself, because of depression or disagreement with a housemate or other preexisting problem. Naturally he didn't suggest to them that if she did go into the river voluntarily it's far more likely she did so because she'd just been raped, in which case PR is responsible and the 'was it murder or was it manslaughter' question is one that simply wouldn't be considered in most cases where a rape victim died shortly after being attacked.

 

[Scorpiette]

What happens if the jury are split 6/6 or similar. Is there a retrial or would that count as innocent (for the murder/manslaughter charge)?

 

[Tortoise]

I don't think so. The defence invited the jury to consider Libby might have walked into the river herself, because of depression or disagreement with a housemate or other preexisting problem. Naturally he didn't suggest to them that if she did go into the river voluntarily it's far more likely she did so because she'd just been raped, in which case PR is responsible and the 'was it murder or was it manslaughter' question is one that simply wouldn't be considered in most cases where a rape victim died shortly after being attacked.

or misadventure.

 

[Tortoise]

What happens if the jury are split 6/6 or similar. Is there a retrial or would that count as innocent (for the murder/manslaughter charge)?

If they don't enter a not guilty verdict I think they are just discharged and the prosecution gets to retry it with a new jury, if they decide to.

If they enter not guilty I think the prosecution needs new evidence to bring the case again.

 

[Mommysleuth11]

What happens if the jury are split 6/6 or similar. Is there a retrial or would that count as innocent (for the murder/manslaughter charge)?

I wondered this and looked into it, it would be considered hung jury, they would be discharged and the prosecution would have 7 days to notify the court if they wished to proceed with a retrial.
Second retrial is usually pretty automatic if prosecution so wished but after that if still no decided verdict, it wouldn't go to a third retrial for example.

Edited to add link

Retrials | The Crown Prosecution Service

 

[Joolz1975]

We know what PR did was wrong.

But...
I don’t think PR knew what he did was wrong. (Apart from the fact that he saw it as cheating on his wife)
I don’t think he thought masturbating in the street was wrong. He referred to these crimes as ‘silly’ showing no understanding for how they affected the women.
I don’t think he saw having sex with Libby was wrong.
I don’t think he thought at all that Libby would even remember it the next day so I don’t think he thought there was a risk he would be reported.

Find that offensive to be honest. Almost like making an excuse for his behaviour, of course he knew it was wrong! Just because he trivialised his behaviour as silly does not mean he did not know the impact his behaviour would have on women.

 

[elliefant]

He knew it was wrong. I can well believe he felt it shouldn’t be wrong though.

 

[mrazda71]

We know what PR did was wrong.

But...
I don’t think PR knew what he did was wrong. (Apart from the fact that he saw it as cheating on his wife)
I don’t think he thought masturbating in the street was wrong. He referred to these crimes as ‘silly’ showing no understanding for how they affected the women.
I don’t think he saw having sex with Libby was wrong.
I don’t think he thought at all that Libby would even remember it the next day so I don’t think he thought there was a risk he would be reported.

ETA what he thinks obviously doesn’t alter the crime - but it does eliminate a possible motive

I do not believe for a single second that Relowicz didn't think his prior offending was wrong.

He says NOW 'oh it's just my silly little fetish' because if he told the truth 'my sexual desire is driven by the fear in the faces and screams of the women I force to take part in my sex act' ... the jury wouldn't still be deliberating on day 5.

 

[Sooty]

Find that offensive to be honest. Almost like making an excuse for his behaviour, of course he knew it was wrong! Just because he trivialised his behaviour as silly does not mean he did not know the impact his behaviour would have on women.

No offence to anyone intended whatsoever, and I am not making any excuses. There are many people however, that still think this way - they think it’s some sort of entitlement and that it’s easy to get away with.

 

[Cherwell]

A guilty verdict on the rape charge is surely inevitable. I am fairly confident that failing a guilty verdict on the murder/manslaughter charge, he will get a very heavy sentence for that.

 

[Joolz1975]

No offence to anyone intended whatsoever, and I am not making any excuses. There are many people however, that still think this way - they think it’s some sort of entitlement and that it’s easy to get away with.

Just because someone thinks are entitled to masturbate in the street or steal sex toys or rape does not mean they do not know it is wrong though.