GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

[Tortoise]

For misadventure Libby has to start outside the park in Oak Road.

People can't speculate on her being left close to the river by PR because that hasn't been his defence.

In none of his stories does he take her into the park. So no 'left close to the river' option should be considered really. It is not been presented for some reason. Which is, in itself, suspicious.

Earlier CCTV shows she can barely walk and has often been helped up. The darts players found her lying in snow.

By this point she'd be colder and her blood alcohol is still 3 times the legal drink limit as per the toxicology reports. The terrain is less conducive to walking. She avoids all CCTV.

How do the misadventure theorists get her to the river avoiding CCTV from outside the park?

Who was the man?

That is not true and has been pointed out before, to this same assertion.

His lies have to be examined. People are free to accept he lied about where he raped Libby.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

09:48
Tough decisions to be made
As the jury enters day five of its deliberations it is clear difficult decisions have to be made.

The members have to decide whether Pawel Relowicz whether he raped Libby and whether he murdered her or is guily of manslaughter. You can find more about the choices they have by clicking here

Jury to decide if Libby death was murder, manslaughter or tragedy

Thanks jamjim. Had a skip through the thread to find this - appreciate your updates!

 

[JosieJo]

Technically one group will be right and one wrong since we only been presented with two scenarios tho I know what you mean.

We have Murder and placing in the river by PR or misadventure starting from outside the park.

PR hasn't given us the option of considering him bringing Libby closer to the river in any of his statements for some reason. Therefore I don't see why he should be given the benefit of the doubt on that by postulating an scenarios where he had. He's lied for a reason.

If Libby had been found dead in the park or even he'd said he'd taken closer to the river I would have reasonable doubt.

There is also later evidence that has to be considered - why lie about something that was very likely going to be discovered.

It does not have to be starting at the park ...

The prosecution puts her in the park towards the river therefore we have to ask have they proven that ...yes imo because of the screams and man exiting ...we can then ask from that point in the park did he kill her or run away having committed rape only ..at that area in the park already proven

 

[Bethan]

Maybe he just left her for dead the first time, before realising while he was having a nice hot bath that she could still be lying there in the freezing cold. On his return he realised she was dead and the river was an obvious means of instant disposal.

I do appreciate all this is pinned on the shed area NOT being the scene of the crime, but we only have his word that it was and I really don’t trust his word. At the point he was arrested and questioned Libby hadn’t been found and only he would know she was in the water, so he had to keep his version of events far away from the river.

I see I´ve just posted a very similar thought to you Cags...( though I’m still 200+ posts behind this morning)

 

[Newthoughts]

I wasn't thinking she was trying to find her way to the river, more wandering distraught and could have been for some time.

She had to start that journey from outside the park if we accept PRs defence. We have two options believe his defence or the prosecution. Why speculate another into existence to give him a benefit of the doubt that he's avoided himself?

She hasn't really got unlimited time. Her body temp is 35 degrees which is not yet dangerous but it's not going to stay at that forever. It will drop down to dangerous at some point without intervention. She will die of hypothermia. So she has to get in before that.

The darts players had to help her up from lying in the snow Others had helped her up as well. She's fallen several times already. Her knees were cut. She's been cold for longer now and she's in more open territory.

IMO based on what we've seen there is a high likelihood that she'll waste some of that time falling over and struggling to get up without help. Or she'll stop and rest in the snow as seen. None of which will help her hypothermia. IMO

She gets into the park from Oak Road to stumble around. The ratio of parkland to river is way higher for park. There is CCTV of parts of the park that she avoids.

There seems to be an upward bank presenting an incline to get to the river.

The prosecution pointed to weeds and other obstacles and specifically stated it would be difficult to fall into that river.

She has to do more than drown she has get swept into that Humber Estuary.

Yet she doesn't slip or take the path of least resistance - she soldiers on. Carefully avoiding leaving any evidence of her stumblings around.

IMO the likelihood of her dying on dry land in the park is statistically way higher based on all that than her getting inyo

If PR had says he'd taken her close to the river - maybe I'd think misadventure. But he doesn't - fortuitously avoiding DETAILED discussions of timing and terrain. Beyond he'd have to sprint. If his defence avoid the option of him being in park I can't speculate it into existence unlike them because he has says he didn't!!

Defence cannot have it both ways! Either he left her in Oak Road or they forward only options they've had him claim!

He comes back later and spends 4.5 minutes. If he knows where to look that's enough. But there's a whole park to search realistically. Yet, like Libby he also manages to avoid CCTV and quickly ascertains she's not there.

Then he has another stalking session culminating in a seconds long wank into a condom that he seems to lose by a medical centre that involves him walking away from his house and his car. Where was he taking that? My guess is as a gift - very confident if he'd just talked someone.

On arrest - despite the likelihood someone who'd died of misadventure would be found - he lies about having sex

All.oponion based on what we know

 

[C.greek]

12:58
'What happened at Oak Road?'

Mr Saxby said: “What happened at Oak Road? What is the evidence? Five areas: The CCTV, Alford, Brewster and Durkin, the DNA, evidence of Dr Lyall and evidence of Professor Deakin.

“The prosecution theory: They don’t have to prove precisely how Pawel Relowicz killed Libby Squire but there is only a limited amount of options and they have to prove that he did actually kill her. Their case in opening was that ‘at Oak Road having exited his vehicle, we say Relowicz raped Libby and killed her, causing her death during that act of sexual violence which culminated in him putting her dead or dying into the River Hull’ as in he put his hand over her mouth, asphyxiating her.

“Of the seven and a half minutes he was away from his car, the theory continued, ‘that window was more than enough time for the defendant to have taken or pursue Libby out into the playing fields, sexually attacked and killed her, put her body in the river and run back to the car.’ Sprint, more like.

“They were good enough to accept it was ‘tight’ the timing. You see the maps and the photos, you know the distances and the conditions - dark, wet and slippery. There is a lot to be done in that time, including taking or pursuing her. If there is one bit of hard work I ask you to do is this: What is it they’re saying happened to Libby? They have to present some sort of violent scenario, how did she get to by the water? Did he rape her by the car, kill her there and then carry her? Did he take her along the path and rape her by the pond and kill her? Where was this pursuing? It’s because of the intermittent screaming - not one terrible scream, that’s why they use that word because they want you to picture him pursuing her.

“He did get her over there by the river, one way or another. He took her and chased after her for a period and raped her and so on. No wonder they needed him to be running on Sam Alford’s account. Perhaps because of this problem they have another variation - we were told it is perfectly possible he didn’t put her body into the water until the third visit.

“Those are the theories, framed you may think, by the evidence.”

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

Thank you! This imo is just raising few doubts about the timing. It's not directly contradicting it nor discarding the possibilities.

 

[jamjim]

10:34
Jury being called back in

The jury being called back into court before members will once again begin deliberations for the fifth day.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks

 

[Joolz1975]

10:34
Jury being called back in

The jury being called back into court before members will once again begin deliberations for the fifth day.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks

I feel like today will be the day you bring us news Jamjim so in advance thank you for all the updates.

 

[elliefant]

I have a feeling today’s the day too! Hope so.

Thank you @jamjim for keeping an eye on it so much.

I feel like today will be the day you bring us news Jamjim so in advance thank you for all the updates.

 

[Tortoise]

10:34
Jury being called back in

The jury being called back into court before members will once again begin deliberations for the fifth day.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks

I find this interesting. When I did jury service we used a back entrance to the court deliberating rooms each day, after deliberations had started.

 

[JosieJo]

I find this interesting. When I did jury service we used a back entrance to the court deliberating rooms each day, after deliberations had started.

I wondered about this too ... thought I might be reading too much into it

 

[Newthoughts]

12:58
'What happened at Oak Road?'

Mr Saxby said: “What happened at Oak Road? What is the evidence? Five areas: The CCTV, Alford, Brewster and Durkin, the DNA, evidence of Dr Lyall and evidence of Professor Deakin.

“The prosecution theory: They don’t have to prove precisely how Pawel Relowicz killed Libby Squire but there is only a limited amount of options and they have to prove that he did actually kill her. Their case in opening was that ‘at Oak Road having exited his vehicle, we say Relowicz raped Libby and killed her, causing her death during that act of sexual violence which culminated in him putting her dead or dying into the River Hull’ as in he put his hand over her mouth, asphyxiating her.

“Of the seven and a half minutes he was away from his car, the theory continued, ‘that window was more than enough time for the defendant to have taken or pursue Libby out into the playing fields, sexually attacked and killed her, put her body in the river and run back to the car.’ Sprint, more like.

“They were good enough to accept it was ‘tight’ the timing. You see the maps and the photos, you know the distances and the conditions - dark, wet and slippery. There is a lot to be done in that time, including taking or pursuing her. If there is one bit of hard work I ask you to do is this: What is it they’re saying happened to Libby? They have to present some sort of violent scenario, how did she get to by the water? Did he rape her by the car, kill her there and then carry her? Did he take her along the path and rape her by the pond and kill her? Where was this pursuing? It’s because of the intermittent screaming - not one terrible scream, that’s why they use that word because they want you to picture him pursuing her.

“He did get her over there by the river, one way or another. He took her and chased after her for a period and raped her and so on. No wonder they needed him to be running on Sam Alford’s account. Perhaps because of this problem they have another variation - we were told it is perfectly possible he didn’t put her body into the water until the third visit.

“Those are the theories, framed you may think, by the evidence.”

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

Those are refutations of the prosecution claims not what they say happened.

PR clearly states he left her on Oak Road. His defence does not pick him up on that. They do NOT offer it as a lie that he's told. Hence THEY genuinely avoid questioning him on timing!

 

[bos]

Idiosyncrasy of the judge - dotting all the is & crossing the t’s
High profile/justice needing to be seen to be done
Geography of that particular court/no back way to room or because of a COVID secure one-way system

Or something else?

 

[jamjim]

Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Jury retire to consider verdict - 10:35
Sheffield Crown Court 1 T20207204

https://www.thelawpages.com/court-hearings-lists/Sheffield-Crown-Court.php

 

[Blondiexoxo]

They need a full days worth of deliberating starting at 9-9.30 and ending at 5ish. There’s simply not enough time to make progress when the start times are so late and the finish time so early. Not expecting them to do 12 hours but if I was on this jury I’d be frustrated that just when we get somewhere it’s a break or time to go home then having to come back and rehash everything from the day before, plus bad weather days which I know can’t be helped. If I was on a jury I’d be prepared to stay til at least 5, these hours are almost part time. I know it’s not their fault but maybe the judge should give them a longer day to try and make some progress. JMO

 

[Tortoise]

Those are refutations of the prosecution claims not what they say happened.

PR clearly states he left her on Oak Road. His defence does not pick him up on that. They do NOT offer it as a lie that he's told. Hence THEY genuinely avoid questioning him on timing!

Again, the jury is free to decide he lied about where he was, and that the timings don't support what the prosecution alleges, if that is what they think the evidence on timing shows (cctv and witnesses).

 

[Lyall0814]

It’s been made clear in previous threads that his job would have no element on his fitness, he was a production line worker at a butchers factory, he was not lifting heavy objects all day.

The “he could easily carry her, he’s a fit young man” is an opinion not a fact.

When lockdowns over, go down to your local gym and have a look at what people lift, you’ll be surprised to see that the “big” guys aren’t living as much as some of the “smaller” guys...

PR probably could have carried LS, but sprinting with someone who is 60kg plus on your back over a distance of more that 300 metres would be extremely difficult in the space of a couple of minutes IMO

Difficult, yes, but I expect it suddenly becomes easier when you know your freedom depends on you doing it.

 

[jamjim]

Sophie Corcoran
@sophcorcoran
Jury has been sent out again, they are now into their fifth day of deliberations. Updates here:

Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Sophie Corcoran
@sophcorcoran
Jury has been sent out again, they are now into their fifth day of deliberations. Updates here:

Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks

This is what I’m talking about it’s 11am
They’ve probably only just sat down to get started and they’ll be sent for lunch soon. I really feel for Libby’s family. I hope the judge gives them longer, fingers crossed they reach a verdict today.

 

[Newthoughts]

This is what I’m talking about it’s 11am
They’ve probably only just sat down to get started and they’ll be sent for lunch soon. I really feel for Libby’s family. I hope the judge gives them longer, fingers crossed they reach a verdict today.

Let's hope they search for the most plausible version of the truth on all evidence and Libby gets justice.