GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

[Joolz1975]

Weather here looking ok so hopefully they will get a full day and fingers crossed a verdict!

 

[jamjim]

Day 18 - jury set to continue talks
It is now Day 18 of the Libby Squire murder trial and the jury is set to continue to meet to decide a verdict on the charges of rape and murder against Pawel Relowicz.

The jury were sent out last Thursday.

We'll continue our coverage live from Sheffield Crown Court.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks

 

[Newthoughts]

I've not ever said he is not responsible for her death in some way or another ... but no matter how vile or perverted or even dangerous he might be ...the law still requires his level of involvement to be proven by the prosecution and classified correctly

I feel no matter how fit a person is the fact that that persons car pulls up at 12 .11hrs and his car arrives back home at 12.22hrs I would have to consider that tight

It appears that a some locals disagree with that. I'm not quite sure what the issue is with timing is? It's 359 metre there. 359 metres back? He's 24 not 64

 

[Niner]

Wednesday, Feb. 10th:
*Trial continues (Day 18)-VERDICT WATCH! (Day 5) (@ 10:30am UK) – UK – Liberty “Libby” Anna Squire (21) (last seen Jan. 31, 2019 outside Welly Club in Hull; found Mar. 20, 2019 from Grimsby Docks in the Humber Estuary) - *Pawel P. Relowicz (24/now 25) arrested (Feb. 6, 2019 on suspicion of abduction) officially charged (Oct. 30, 2019) with murder & rape. No plea entered yet. Not guilty plea entered on Jan. 12, 2021.
Trial began on Jan. 12, 2021. Trial will be in Sheffield. Richard Wright QC will lead, Mr. Woolfall prosecutor. Oliver Saxby QC for defense. Trial expected to last 6 weeks. Jury: 5 men & 7 women. Day 1 (4/2/21) of deliberations: 2 hours. Day 2 (5/2/21) of deliberations: 5 ½ hours. Day 3 (8/2/21) of deliberations: 5 hours 15 mins. Day 4 (9/2/21) of deliberations: 5 hours & 50 mins. Total deliberations: ~18 hours 35 mins. (Reporter has ~15 hours of deliberations).
Was originally charged (18/3/19 & 10/5/19) with 5 counts of burglary, 4 counts of voyeurism, 3 counts of outraging public decency & 1 count of receiving stolen goods. On Aug. 12, 2019 plead guilty to 9 charges including voyeurism (4 counts), outraging public decency (2 counts) & burglary (3 counts). Relowicz jailed for 8½ years.
Trial (Days 1-16) & Deliberation Days (1-3) (12/1/21 - 8/2/21) reference post #106 here:
VERDICT WATCH - UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25
Feb 9th Tuesday, Day 17 of Verdict Watch (Day 4): The jury members have all arrived & have been sworn in again & they will now continue their deliberations for a 4th day. Jurors began deliberations at 10:30am.
@2:50pm: Jury are now coming back in after giving in a note. It was a question about re-reading the witness statement of SA. Justice Lambert has read to the jury what Mr. A said in his evidence at the time he gave it. He was the man who lived in a house just next to Oak Road playing fields who heard a woman screaming and then saw a man hurrying away from the park. (#166) here:
VERDICT WATCH - UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25
@2:57pm: The jury have now gone back out to carry on considering its verdict.
@4:30pm: Jury sent home with no verdict reached. The 12 members will return again tomorrow 10/2/21 @ 10:30am - weather permitting - to continue deliberations once more.

 

[Chambo1994]

We don't know his exact level of fitness but he was definitely a lot fitter than most to be doing the job he was.

It’s been made clear in previous threads that his job would have no element on his fitness, he was a production line worker at a butchers factory, he was not lifting heavy objects all day.

The “he could easily carry her, he’s a fit young man” is an opinion not a fact.

When lockdowns over, go down to your local gym and have a look at what people lift, you’ll be surprised to see that the “big” guys aren’t living as much as some of the “smaller” guys...

PR probably could have carried LS, but sprinting with someone who is 60kg plus on your back over a distance of more that 300 metres would be extremely difficult in the space of a couple of minutes IMO

 

[JosieJo]

It appears that a some locals disagree with that. I'm not quite sure what the issue is with timing is? It's 359 metre there. 359 metres back? He's 24 not 64

Some do some dont ...locals vary.
The 359 metres quoted by the prosecution is conveniently as the crow flies

Many people think the timeline is tight not just me as does the defence...also even the prosecution are twitchy about it ...they purposely try to cover it in their opening speech before the defence bring it up

I accept some people don't have a problem with the timing ...just as many do worry about it ....no one is right or wrong here

 

[Newthoughts]

Temp differences don't help though in hypothermia(i mean from -2 to a warmish car and out again in -2). In any case what i wanted to say was that the rape must have been a terrible ordeal for her which wouldn't possibly leave her with the strength to stand up. We saw in cctv that already before the rape she needed help to stand up when she fell. Why all of a sudden would she be able to stand up on her own and walk to the river? Especially considering she was raped on top of all other things that were happening to her body because of alcohol and the cold?

Agree

From the pictures we've seen, from what locals have said AND even from the prosecutions summing up (which as far as we're aware the defence didn't mention) - it looked like a river that would not be easy to fall into. In a drunk and hypothermic state.

We have no way of knowing if 15 mins later she was still able to walk or not though ..so remains a real possibility imo

How likely is that, given what we've already seen on CCTV? She was already falling over. She's now been hypothermic for longer. And she's been raped. And PR is adamant he left her in Oak Road.

How would she make that effort? To get up, traverse the park, climb an incline which is probably slippy to see the lights of industry then thru the weeds into the river. Rather than stumblng back to path of least resistance and falling over and dying in the park. Or on the banks?

I know it is essential to find the truth but it does kind of feel like PR is being given the benefit the doubt over everything and Libby none.

A fit 24 year who has managed to rape somebody is suddenly too helpless to do it despite some local people saying he could. A drunk hypothermic girl we've seen falling could however go for a yomp across a park and into a river.

IMO misadventure would be likely if Libby's body had been found in the park. If PR had admitted to 'having sex' right at the start because he'd be concerned she'd be found.

 

[Chambo1994]

It appears that a some locals disagree with that. I'm not quite sure what the issue is with timing is? It's 359 metre there. 359 metres back? He's 24 not 64

A lot of locals also agree it would be tough to agree with the timing too It appears recently we have had a couple of new posters who claim they are local agree with the timing, but prior to that it was mostly doubted.

Age also has no bearing on fitness, there’s plenty of 64 year olds who are far fitter than 24 year olds!

 

[JosieJo]

Agree

From the pictures we've seen, from what locals have said AND even from the prosecutions summing up (which as far as we're aware the defence didn't mention) - it looked like a river that would not be easy to fall into. In a drunk and hypothermic state.



How likely is that, given what we've already seen on CCTV? She was already falling over. She's now been hypothermic for longer. And she's been raped. And PR is adamant he left her in Oak Road.

How would she make that effort? To get up, traverse the park, climb an incline which is probably slippy to see the lights of industry then thru the weeds into the river. Rather than stumblng back to path of least resistance and falling over and dying in the park. Or on the banks?

I know it is essential to find the truth but it does kind of feel like PR is being given the benefit the doubt over everything and Libby none.

A fit 24 year who has managed to rape somebody is suddenly too helpless to do it despite some local people saying he could. A drunk hypothermic girl we've seen falling could however go for a yomp across a park and into a river.

IMO misadventure would be likely if Libby's body had been found in the park. If PR had admitted to 'having sex' right at the start because he'd be concerned she'd be found.

I'm sorry but whether she could get up and walk a short distance or not if he left her alive is nothing but speculation...none of us know ...or should state it as a fact ...its possible and no one can know as no evidence has been presented to say any different

 

[NottReds50]

PR probably could have carried LS, but sprinting with someone who is 60kg plus on your back over a distance of more that 300 metres would be extremely difficult in the space of a couple of minutes IMO

Do you think Libby weighed that much, 10stone? she was very slender. He was 14 stone, so that would be ~75% of his body weight, nothing alarming about that.

Either way, carrying her ~300m would mean pretty much next to the park entrance. That would probably be over 7.5 minutes, but if they near the river, timings are significantly easier to accept

 

[Newthoughts]

It’s been made clear in previous threads that his job would have no element on his fitness, he was a production line worker at a butchers factory, he was not lifting heavy objects all day.

The “he could easily carry her, he’s a fit young man” is an opinion not a fact.

When lockdowns over, go down to your local gym and have a look at what people lift, you’ll be surprised to see that the “big” guys aren’t living as much as some of the “smaller” guys...

PR probably could have carried LS, but sprinting with someone who is 60kg plus on your back over a distance of more that 300 metres would be extremely difficult in the space of a couple of minutes IMO

I don't think anyone has ever remotely suggested he sprinted with her on his back tho. There are lots of ways to get people from point A to B without hoisting them onto your back and sprinting.

I would imagine a combination of half drag half pick up around the waist would be far easier and more likely then the effort to lift her higher. Her reactions would too slow to react and she's physically weaker.

It is very easy for males to overpower females as the shocking rape statistics show. She was hardly in a position to fight back.

 

[JosieJo]

Heres hoping there is a verdict for the family today each day must be torture for them

 

[Newthoughts]

I'm sorry but whether she could get up and walk a short distance or not if he left her alive is nothing but speculation...none of us know ...or should state it as a fact ...its possible and no one can know as no evidence has been presented to say any different

And the fact he couldn't do it in the time allotted is also speculation yet stated again and again with little to say why

 

[Chambo1994]

I don't think anyone has ever remotely suggested he sprinted with her on his back tho. There are lots of ways to get people from point A to B without hoisting them onto your back and sprinting.

I would imagine a combination of half drag half pick up around the waist would be far easier and more likely then the effort to lift her higher. Her reactions would too slow to react and she's physically weaker.

It is very easy for males to overpower females as the shocking rape statistics show. She was hardly in a position to fight back.

I never once said she didn’t fight back, I’ll make that clear at the start. Nor is there anywhere on this post or the 100s of others I have made any doubt about the rape.

Dragging or pulling by her waist would slow him down, making the timing difficult to understand IMO

I mentioned sprinting as that’s the only way he could get every action suspected done in the 7.5 minutes IMO, the world record for 400m is 45 seconds...

 

[Newthoughts]

I never once said she didn’t fight back, I’ll make that clear at the start. Nor is there anywhere on this post or the 100s of others I have made any doubt about the rape.

Dragging or pulling by her waist would slow him down, making the timing difficult to understand IMO

I mentioned sprinting as that’s the only way he could get every action suspected done in the 7.5 minutes IMO, the world record for 400m is 45 seconds...

So what is your issue with the timing? Why couldn't he have done it?

 

[JosieJo]

And the fact he couldn't do it in the time allotted is also speculation yet stated again and again with little to say why

Which is exactly what I said ...none of us know either way ...and there have probably (likely to most peoples frustration) been hundreds of posts on why some people think that the timings are tight..measurements...averages ...photos..videos..weather ...could probably list lots more ..to say it gets repeated with "little to say why" is inaccurate and unfair..people have opinions ...lots of ...for all different reasons ...on the whole sensible well thought out reasons ...opinions vary it doesn't make any wrong or right ....anyway let's hope there's a verdict today ...in reality none of us will ever know exactly what happened

 

[C.greek]

But the prosecution didn't put forward and specialist either to say that a further 15 min after being "raped" it was be extremely unlikely she would be able to get up and walk?

Because the prosecution think that she was left dead or dying after being raped. Jmo

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

Wednesday, Feb. 10th:
*Trial continues (Day 18)-VERDICT WATCH! (Day 5) (@ 10:30am UK) – UK – Liberty “Libby” Anna Squire (21) (last seen Jan. 31, 2019 outside Welly Club in Hull; found Mar. 20, 2019 from Grimsby Docks in the Humber Estuary) - *Pawel P. Relowicz (24/now 25) arrested (Feb. 6, 2019 on suspicion of abduction) officially charged (Oct. 30, 2019) with murder & rape. No plea entered yet. Not guilty plea entered on Jan. 12, 2021.
Trial began on Jan. 12, 2021. Trial will be in Sheffield. Richard Wright QC will lead, Mr. Woolfall prosecutor. Oliver Saxby QC for defense. Trial expected to last 6 weeks. Jury: 5 men & 7 women. Day 1 (4/2/21) of deliberations: 2 hours. Day 2 (5/2/21) of deliberations: 5 ½ hours. Day 3 (8/2/21) of deliberations: 5 hours 15 mins. Day 4 (9/2/21) of deliberations: 5 hours & 50 mins. Total deliberations: ~18 hours 35 mins. (Reporter has ~15 hours of deliberations).
Was originally charged (18/3/19 & 10/5/19) with 5 counts of burglary, 4 counts of voyeurism, 3 counts of outraging public decency & 1 count of receiving stolen goods. On Aug. 12, 2019 plead guilty to 9 charges including voyeurism (4 counts), outraging public decency (2 counts) & burglary (3 counts). Relowicz jailed for 8½ years.
Trial (Days 1-16) & Deliberation Days (1-3) (12/1/21 - 8/2/21) reference post #106 here:
VERDICT WATCH - UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25
Feb 9th Tuesday, Day 17 of Verdict Watch (Day 4): The jury members have all arrived & have been sworn in again & they will now continue their deliberations for a 4th day. Jurors began deliberations at 10:30am.
@2:50pm: Jury are now coming back in after giving in a note. It was a question about re-reading the witness statement of SA. Justice Lambert has read to the jury what Mr. A said in his evidence at the time he gave it. He was the man who lived in a house just next to Oak Road playing fields who heard a woman screaming and then saw a man hurrying away from the park. (#166) here:
VERDICT WATCH - UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25
@2:57pm: The jury have now gone back out to carry on considering its verdict.
@4:30pm: Jury sent home with no verdict reached. The 12 members will return again tomorrow 10/2/21 @ 10:30am - weather permitting - to continue deliberations once more.

Thanks for update!

Are you doing the court updates today? Nice to share the honours, m'lud!

 

[Chambo1994]

So what is your issue with the timing? Why couldn't he have done it?

I think we’ve discussed this previously. But my issue is, I see the timeline would have to be like this;

Arrive, Rape, Kill, Panic/Thought, lift and carry, dispose, return to car.

so my doubts about that being possible in the 7.5 minutes;

The rape would have had to have started instantly or alternatively LS would have had to have fled instantly and been tracked down by PR (that could link to the screaming)
The rape would have had to have lasted seconds.
The killing would have had to have lasted seconds
There would be no time process for PR to think how or where to hide the body
PR would have also had to negotiate the terrain and area around the river with 50 - 60kg of dead weight

When I take all the above in to account I can’t fit in the timeframe. It is possible disposal could be on visit 3. But again I’d find it tight, this is just my opinion.

 

[JosieJo]

Because the prosecution think that she was left dead or dying after being raped. Jmo

Obviously they did but its their job to prove no other scenario was possible