UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20

[Corneileus]

Not even the first visit to the park, or the prior drone activity, third visit to the park, dragging Libby into his car if never violent to women, the bruises on Libby's body, the pathologist inability to say she definitely drowned, the inability to rule out asphixiation as a cause of death, the not going to police when Libby was reported missing.

Third visit to the park could have been to try to have sex/rape her again. He did not find her so proceeded masturbated down Newland avenue. If he had killed her/has killed her, he's completely off his dial to carry on with his behaviour masturbating here and there and seeking out more thrills. Im not saying this isnt the case but hmmm. Its quite complicated all this, Ive not studied the subject but Id have thought someone who just murdered someone and wanted to get away with it might of been keeping a much lower profile than the defendant did on that tragic night.

 

[Newthoughts]

Techy question - has he taken the stand because he wanted to change his story and it was the only way he could present it at this stage?

I'm wondering about that as well. It would be useful to know from the legal point of view.

I would hope that a defendant couldn't just change their story and then there be means of questioning them on those changes properly. As he can no longer be formally questioned by police my guess is that the DNA evidence is what has forced him to take the stand.

The only other way round it would have been to plead guilty to rape but not murder. IMO that might have been his best option.

But it could be arrogance.

 

[Ruthbullock]

He knew that Libby would be found eventually if he just raped and left her there in the cold etc. How was he then going to explain his semen in her, her account of what really happened if she survived. If he left her alive, she would tell what happened, if he raped and killed her he would be tied to her murder when his semen was discovered and her body would provide more DNA evidence of him and injuries. If he was scared to admit his other voyeuristic crimes, there's no way he'd want people to know he was a rapist and/or murderer. His only Solution was to get rid of her body in the most obvious place (the river) and he nearly got away with it only her body turned up.

His DNA was his calling card- he left it all over the place and never batted an eyelid about it.

 

[havntgotaclue]

He is completely contradicting himself too..Out all evening looking for sex but then felt guilty cheating on the wife, left libby by the road but then checked the park for her later (but says they didn't go in the park). If there is actual CCTV of them both entering the park and only him leaving the park, why would he now come up with this nonsense that can clearly be disproved?! Doesnt make sense. I'm struggling to figure out if he really is the worlds worst liar or the HDM reporting of the trial has missed out a few key bits of

 

[mrjitty]

Techy question - has he taken the stand because he wanted to change his story and it was the only way he could present it at this stage?

Presumably.

Personally I think it is a terrible strategy, but it is the only way he can explain his DNA as he had not given that version pre-trial

 

[Newthoughts]

Third visit to the park could have been to try to have sex/rape her again. He did not find her so proceeded masturbated down Newland avenue. If he had killed her/has killed her, he's completely off his dial to carry on with his behaviour masturbating here and there and seeking out more thrills. Im not saying this isnt the case but hmmm. Its quite complicated all this, Ive not studied the subject but Id have thought someone who just murdered someone and wanted to get away with it might of been keeping a much lower profile than the defendant did on that tragic night.

Good points but to me they are more suggestive of a great deal of confidence that Libby will not be found.

IMO he's not expecting to be caught but he's just raped someone. If there was any chance she was alive or her body left in the park he would be caught.

Once they'd tested her for rape his DNA would match loads of his other samples on the database. Even he must have realised police would take a rape more seriously than his other crimes and look for evidence. And with all that against as well it wouldn't look good.

I think he knew he was safe

He has a quick prowl round the student areas again after his third return to the park. It is more than possible that that masturbation was frustration at not finding a student so perhaps just filling a condom to leave on someones door to frighten them

 

[havntgotaclue]

He is completely contradicting himself too..Out all evening looking for sex but then felt guilty cheating on the wife, left libby by the road but then checked the park for her later (but says they didn't go in the park). If there is actual CCTV of them both entering the park and only him leaving the park, why would he now come up with this nonsense that can clearly be disproved?! Doesnt make sense. I'm struggling to figure out if he really is the worlds worst liar or the HDM reporting of the trial has missed out a few key bits of info? Perhaps a combo of both?

Hes the worlds worst liar and HDM isnt much better. We dont call the local rag the daily fail for nothing ..

 

[JosieJo]

Just a few waking thoughts after reading the last few points

I also think pleading guilty to rape (going down the lines of i was violent but she couldn't consent i took advantage) and not guilty to murder would have been a better defence strategy

I do think if he killed her it was a massive step up for him and if he is clever enough to know about cameras and clever enough to think i must put her into the river because of my semen (in a split second)
I agree that going back out in that area a few hours later was at odds with this.

I find the claim that they had sex by the park gates so bizarre im wondering if part truth and that is where he attacked her ....but if she was killed or unconscious getting her into the river in ghe timescale is virtually impossible

 

[Sooty]

If we take PR at his word that they had consensual sex (obviously not) and he drove off. What legal, rather than moral, responsibility for her welfare could be imposed? Just showing my ignorance here. Apologies if discussed before.

 

[mrjitty]

IMO the best path to acquittal was for counsel to argue "you have your suspicions but no one can prove how libby died so my client has to walk"

I think this testimony is a disaster for the defence because instead of taking the jury into his confidence about that night, he has told yet another unbelievable pack of lies which indicate he is hiding what happened to libby.

He needed to throw some red meat, so that the jury might believe he was finally telling the truth - that he did something bad short of murder.

This is a disaster for the defence now

 

[mrjitty]

I also think pleading guilty to rape (going down the lines of i was violent but she couldn't consent i took advantage) and not guilty to murder would have been a better defence strategy

RSBM

Precisely.

Or even better - just say nothing

 

[mrjitty]

Good points but to me they are more suggestive of a great deal of confidence that Libby will not be found.

RSBM

The consciousness of guilt is there from the start. He knew Libby wouldn't suddenly turn up having run away to friends or be found the bushes somewhere.

 

[JosieJo]

I'm struggling to make any scenarios fit this morning based on the evidence so far .. id be fairly convinced the man seen walking across the park by the scream witness was him at that time on night ....but the difficulties walking her or forcing her into the park based on cctv and her unsteadiness etc or carrying her any distance are at odds with the 7.5 min
Libby was 5ft7 and not a tiny petite child like student

 

[Newthoughts]

Re people concerns with the timing.

Back in the pre covid summer of 2019 when we could still go to beaches and relax - my lazy daughter saw the tide was out and settled down to sunbathe instead. Her boyfriend then picked her up and ran to sea with her and dumped her in. It didn't take very long at all.

Admittedly it was daylight but she wasn't drunk or hypothermic and sand is not easy to walk on. Tho she was laughing not screaming she was wriggling. And she is pretty much the same age as Libby.

PR was bulky, filled with adrenaline and ready for action. He'd been to that park already hadn't he.

Libby was slight, drunk and hypothermic and probably taken totally by surprised.

 

[Newthoughts]

I'm struggling to make any scenarios fit this morning based on the evidence so far .. id be fairly convinced the man seen walking across the park by the scream witness was him at that time on night ....but the difficulties walking her or forcing her into the park based on cctv and her unsteadiness etc or carrying her any distance are at odds with the 7.5 min
Libby was 5ft7 and not a tiny petite child like student

I struggle with how she could get into that river herself. She was barely able to walk when we saw her. By the time PR leaves she's been raped and is still going to have all the coordination problems of being slightly hypothermic added to complete shock of that

She doesn't just have to get into the river she has to get in far enough to be washed into the Humber Estuary. There is a slope bank up to it and there are reeds and mud banks at the side of it and it winds around alarmingly. There are good chances of her getting caught somewhere

There were brambles as well which probably would have caught some clothing. And she managed it without even losing a shoe.


Then there is PRs confidence. Two hours later he's filling a condom with DNA that would link him straight back to Libby if he'd left her alive or dead in the park. I don't see him as bright but I don't think he's that stupid.

IMO

 

[Ktboo]

Having seen the approach taken by the defence today, it wouldn't surprise me if they have 'character witnesses' lined up, to support the picture they're trying to paint of PR as 'pervy but wouldn't hurt a fly'.

I remember reading an article early on, with his hairdresser saying what a lovely bloke he was. Can't find the exact piece now, but this round-up mentions several friends & acquaintances giving positive comments, including the hairdresser: '‘To me he was a normal, friendly, quite quiet guy.’ Also a local shopkeeper: '‘I was never scared of him or felt threatened. He would just come and buy his things then leave.'
Sister of Polish butcher arrested over disappearance of Libby Squire insists he's innocent | | Express Digest
I suspect several of these people may feature later, after PR has finished his testimony & been cross-examined.

i always take these character references with a pinch of salt tbh. Of course PR isn’t going to be threatening in a shop and of course he would just buy things and leave... that’s pretty standard, normal behaviour. His crimes are sexually motivated and targeted at young women. Of course he’s going to be acting normal in a shop, at the hair dressers, etc.

 

[Stumpyaura]

I've mentioned it before but we don't know for sure that there was any kind of struggle involved in the rape. A female, alone in a dark park with no means of escape or contacting anyone could very easily be frozen and 'comply' with demands in order to survive. Many rape victims report being frozen with fear and not fighting back as they'd imagined they would. I have also had the horrible image since the description of the screams that he may have been chasing her. It's unbearable to consider as that would be my worst nightmare, but is it possible he threatened her and forced her to walk into/further into the park after the rape and then she ran ahead and the screams are him catching up with her/fear of him behind her?

 

[Challwood]

Two things come to mind for me, firstly the scratches to his face and chest and the experts opinion on her inability to run due to her physical state at the time. View attachment 281202View attachment 281203

I've mentioned it before but we don't know for sure that there was any kind of struggle involved in the rape. A female, alone in a dark park with no means of escape or contacting anyone could very easily be frozen and 'comply' with demands in order to survive. Many rape victims report being frozen with fear and not fighting back as they'd imagined they would. I have also had the horrible image since the description of the screams that he may have been chasing her. It's unbearable to consider as that would be my worst nightmare, but is it possible he threatened her and forced her to walk into/further into the park after the rape and then she ran ahead and the screams are him catching up with her/fear of him behind her?

 

[Stumpyaura]

View attachment 281204 View attachment 281205 Two things come to mind for me, firstly the scratches to his face and chest and the experts opinion on her inability to run due to her physical state at the time. View attachment 281202View attachment 281203

I take the point re running maybe walking ahead. I was looking for a theory why the screams were intermittent. If you were being carried and able to scream you'd imagine it might be continuous. I'm sure that he ended her life, I'm not suggesting that Libby went into the river herself. I'm just thinking if she was moving herself through the park that could have speeded up the time with him not needing to carry her the whole distance.

The scratches could have come at any time. I'm not suggesting Libby wouldn't have fought back at all, I'm just responding to posters who can't imagine how someone could be raped in this timescale imagining a struggling, resistant victim. Plus I think he'd be quick.

 

[Mommysleuth11]

(snipped by me for focus) ... But, having raped and killed Libby, could he have left her in/near the park somewhere, hoping when she was found it would appear as though (in his words) she had fallen and frozen and if semen was found, how would it link to him? his dna isn't on the police database at this point.
But, then he remembers the camera.
But which camera, I wonder? 'Beverley Road', says the reportage. Is this a mistake? Do they mean Beresford Avenue? and if so, surely whatever happened is within view of that camera.

Sorry if this has already been answered I haven't fully caught up.
In Hull there is a centralised CCTV system across the city (i forget the name now) i believe its run by the council or at least contracted ny them.

These cameras are mounted on high poles, perhaps 20/30 ft in the air, they are highly visible to anyone around and they move in different directions. There is one on the Beverley road/Cottingham Road junction that I believe captured much of the far off (red/green arrow) footage of Libby. I think this is the camera he was talking about and I don't think there is anything strange or unusual in him noticing it or knowing it was there. They are meant to be visible, much like a deterrent. They are also monitored 24 hours in an office in the city centre.

ETA link
Hull's creaking CCTV network set for a £400,000 revamp