UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #22

[Stumpyaura]

Yes, I was just looking back on Sam Alford's testimony and while I think he may have over-estimated some of his times I can't ignore the fact that they must have lasted several minutes at least, after about 12:15, for him to recollect different periods of screams and intervals.

If Libby was screaming after the rape, he hadn't asphyxiated her during the rape.
If Libby was screaming because she thought he was going to rape her, that means she hadn't yet been raped by at least about 12:17 - and that means shortening the screams SA heard to just 2 minutes overall. I think the pauses and patterns suggest it was longer than 2 minutes. If he hadn't raped her by 12:17 I don't think there's any chance he managed to rape her and get her in the river and himself back to the car by fast walk, in less than two minutes.
If Libby was screaming during the rape the same applies - he had to have asphyxiated her when the screams stopped and my impression, from the pattern noticed, is she was still screaming beyond the time he would have left her (12:17-12:18) to get back to his car.

I don't think he could have asphyxiated her.

Reminder of SA's testimony

Mr Alford said: “Initially, some screams were intermittent with 30 seconds or a minute between them. At first I sort of ignored them then the second one was a pattern to them and then that’s what sort of made me think - it’s hard because where I live is near the uni accommodation is teenagers on the park, girls screaming, people out having parties on the park so you tend to ignore it. It happens all the time.

“Then I heard the screams again and when I looked I couldn’t see anyone on the park. The screams were enough to make me think, ‘what could that be?’ but it was the pattern - they weren’t constant and that’s what sort of stood out for me.

Pawel Relowicz is giving his account of what happened to Libby - updates

Good analysis. I think she wasn't screaming when he raped her as I think he raped her quickly after arriving and probably still near the car. I have always thought the pattern of screaming relates more to being chased and caught or being led/carried and threatened or realising where you're going so think the screams were related to being taken and put in the river. When I say chased, I know she couldn't run well due to being inebriated.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

As I understood from the witnesses The 12:30 was when the phone was last checked - hence the use of ‘about 12:30’.
This is the same as Mr Alford saying that he checked his phone at 12:14 and then guesstimated his timings from there.

I think there could be a difference. SA is more specific in my mind. Looked at phone 12:14 and heard screams 2-3 minutes later. The couple say about 12:30 we heard screams. Not we looked at our phones and heard screams at that exact time, 5 minutes after, 5 minutes before. It just that small but to me significant difference that for me questions when the couple determined the time. Again I do not doubt they heard screams. MOO

 

[Sooty]

Imo these have to be the same screams ..no way was a fox screaming in the same area of the park as sams screams a couple of minutes later ...and why did he not hear them? He was looking out the window at the time

Its a common comment people make if hearing a scream ..."could be a fox" ...

Sam after hearing his screams was still looking to see if a group of students were around? ...do we ignore that he thought it still might be frivolities causing the screams ...yet convince ourselves there was a fox next to libby because one of the couple wondered it was a fox?
Sorry if it sounds sarky but the similarities in the screams make it nigh on impossible they are not connected

I think that’s a good point - having additional witnesses adds credibility to the testimony in some ways, it doesn’t detract from it for me. It doesn’t mean that one is true and one isn’t, however it does highlight how difficult perhaps it is to keep track of time in the middle of the night. 15 minutes is easily lost in the mind fog of the wee hours in my experience

Edited to add:

it is worth remembering that these were originally witnesses for the prosecution. They declined to use them because, I assume, they knew it wouldn’t fit.
MOO

 

[Skigh]

And running for 3-4 hours in the middle of the night. What reasonable person does that?

And come home,change clothes and go for another run.
I wonder if he actually believes his own lies.
I suppose he could not say I told her I am moonlighting as a taxi driver.
I do think the police would have spoken to her. Wish they could say what she told them.

 

[JosieJo]

I think the jury might have some thinking to do around the screams

Intermittent screams heard by both in the same area of the park .... if we take the best case prosecution times from Sam he still has her screaming at the time PW left in his car.
This new witness is saying around 12.30 ...so imo we now have a best case scenario from the prosecution of Sams latter prediction of hearing screams around 12.23 more likely...

 

[Sarahjo]

I dont mean its madness that a fox can mistaken for human...I absolutely agree ...its that there just happened to be one the same area of the park as libby that Sam didn't hear while looked out the window...thats the "madness" imo

Yeah, both have heard the same screams and they were not screams of a fox.. I am leaning towards him leaving Libby alive in the street, her then walking into the park, scared, confused, screaming.. We already know from previous witnesses near the bus stop that she was very distressed, crying, wailing as such so the state she was in already coupled with the traumatic experience of being raped she would have been beside herself, completely traumatised and not knowing where she was or what shes doing has wandered the wrong way looking for help, screaming and wailing and wandered too far in the wrong direction.. only my opinion of course.. though did he go back??? thats the only part of the narrative that makes me think otherwise....

 

[mrazda71]

They said about 12:30. This is where I start to wonder. About 12:30. If you looked at that time, wouldn’t you know the time? 12:28, 12:32? Now maybe if it was months after you heard screams and had to report to the police but just a day or a few days later? Or I am just a nut that remembers exact times. I do not doubt the couple heard screams. I am just curious about the time. MOO

No I agree with you ... plus, what were they doing when they heard the screams? Sleeping? Watching TV? anything ... you'd hear a scream ... register it, say to other person 'did you hear that or shhhhh' listen again - was that a scream? Etc then potentially pick up your phone its 12.26 by then so in your mind it's 'around 12.30' ... I think they potentially did hear the same screams, I just think their time is off ...

I attended several lectures with Dr Chelsea Slater, forensic psychologist on Eye witness testimony and was shocked at how unreadable it can be - that's one reason why police need as many witnesses to come forward as possible to a sort of average can be worked out.

ETA -Im very observant (more than the average person/trauma response) and we took part in mock crimes and it's true ... we all remembered different things and all together we proved useful but individually, none were 100% accurate on all details.

 

[Dotta]

The legalities of his other indecent behaviour in public, that he has since been convicted for, didn't seem to worry him though JMO

Yes you are right. But technically having sex in public place is Illegal and I tnink he meant that.

 

[bos]

Duh, I’ve only just sussed it was the prosecution questioning the Claremont witnesses.

probably as well it was a short day!

 

[sundaaaay]

Hmmmm- it’s a bit of a stretch to throw a body in the river and naively believe the body would not be found. There’s plenty of news articles about bodies being recovered from the river. He may have hoped his dna had vanished, but I don’t think he thought there would never be a body recovered and previously the prosecution argument has been based around his knowledge of CCTV helping him, now it’s his worst enemy. Sometimes I tip my hat off to the prosecution, other times I struggle to see his point.

He very almost did get away with it, had her body not been found there may never have been a court case

 

[JosieJo]

Yeah, both have heard the same screams and they were not screams of a fox.. I am leaning towards him leaving Libby alive in the street, her then walking into the park, scared, confused, screaming.. We already know from previous witnesses near the bus stop that she was very distressed, crying, wailing as such so the state she was in already coupled with the traumatic experience of being raped she would have been beside herself, completely traumatised and not knowing where she was or what shes doing has wandered the wrong way looking for help, screaming and wailing and wandered too far in the wrong direction.. only my opinion of course.. though did he go back??? thats the only part of the narrative that makes me think otherwise....

I'm not saying for a minute its true ...but the theory that he claims he had consensual sex then once his "anger" with her shouting and scratching at him (his version not mine) died down he went to see if she was still out wandering in the snow or had fallen down

 

[Tortoise]

I think there could be a difference. SA is more specific in my mind. Looked at phone 12:14 and heard screams 2-3 minutes later. The couple say about 12:30 we heard screams. Not we looked at our phones and heard screams at that exact time, 5 minutes after, 5 minutes before. It just that small but to me significant difference that for me questions when the couple determined the time. Again I do not doubt they heard screams. MOO

Let's hope they were questioned about their times and it was missed out of the reporting. Otherwise it looks to be undisputed.

 

[Cherwell]

I think that’s a good point - having additional witnesses adds credibility to the testimony in some ways, it doesn’t detract from it for me. It doesn’t mean that one is true and one isn’t, however it does highlight how difficult perhaps it is to keep track of time in the middle of the night. 15 minutes is easily lost in the mind fog of the wee hours in my experience

No I agree with you ... plus, what were they doing when they heard the screams? Sleeping? Watching TV? anything ... you'd hear a scream ... register it, say to other person 'did you hear that or shhhhh' listen again - was that a scream? Etc then potentially pick up your phone its 12.26 by then so in your mind it's 'around 12.30' ... I think they potentially did hear the same screams, I just think their time is off ...

I'd agree with this. It confirms the screams, but I wouldn't put too much weight on the timings.

 

[mrazda71]

I dont mean its madness that a fox can mistaken for human...I absolutely agree ...its that there just happened to be one the same area of the park as libby that Sam didn't hear while looked out the window...thats the "madness" imo

We haven't been told that Sam didn't hear foxes or an owl or any other creature at 'around 12.30 a.m' have we?

 

[Newthoughts]

I'm not sure an urban fox in heat is going to be bothered by humans.

I'm not sure why Sam Alford didn't hear it having already been alerted to screams he described as human.

Sam Alford lives by the park so would be used to the sound of mating foxes.

Boyfriends initial thought, and current thought by the sound of it, was animal. The first thought of anyone hearing foxes mating for the first time is not animal. Second time it is. He doesn't even look out of the window.

Timing is far vaguer than Sam Alford's plus no visual support

Completely missed Alford's set of screams



Given all the other evidence and PRs lies I don't think for me that introduces sufficient doubt of his guilt. Not clear on timing could be same screams . Not clear on source could be fox

 

[Sarahjo]

I'm not saying for a minute its true ...but the theory that he claims he had consensual sex then once his "anger" with her shouting and scratching at him (his version not mine) died down he went to see if she was still out wandering in the snow or had fallen down

well, he went back out to do some more of his nasty stuff after he left her so whats to say he didn't go back looking for her to do something to again, he didn't find her so went elsewhere to get his kicks again..

 

[Ruthbullock]

Is anyone else not convinced by the 12.30 'screams' witness statements?

Sams testimony is much more convincing to me, seeing as he identied the screams as human, got up to look and saw 'a man' leaving the park.

I’m more convinced with the students witnesses- we all discussed with locals at the beginning about screams being misheard and have done on other cases as foxes. on top of that we have had it confirmed they rang it into the police the day she was reported missing (which we have questioned about the other report, I’m not saying it isn’t the case, merely that we haven’t heard it stated). Also some of us were a bit dubious about the length of time in the dead of night he was seemingly looking out of the window, even for many minutes after screaming stopped, and despite only looking at his clock twice seemed to be able to guesstimate exactly how many minutes had passed. Ask anyone to predict a minute- the majority of people will be incorrect even when trying to count the seconds (look at the cube on tv if you need more proof). The biggest question mark over this statement is he was so convinced it was a woman desperately screaming- yet didn’t ring 999 immediately.

 

[JosieJo]

I'd agree with this. It confirms the screams, but I wouldn't put too much weight on the timings.

Its difficult to put any weight on any timings ..ok Sam looked at his text at 12.14 ....he gives us his variation on timescale himself ..he had her alive up to anything from 12.19 hrs to 12.23 hrs ...pw was in his car at both times.
I think when someone has added their own "variation" on times as sam has its difficult to extend out of these variations even further ...as variations already been considered by the witness themself
I'd say the couple timings could easily be out ...but imo it just adds credence to Sams later time of 12.23

 

[mrazda71]

Yes you are right. But technically having sex in public place is Illegal and I tnink he meant that.

Masturbating in public is also just as illegal.

 

[Cherwell]

Yeah, both have heard the same screams and they were not screams of a fox.. I am leaning towards him leaving Libby alive in the street, her then walking into the park, scared, confused, screaming.. We already know from previous witnesses near the bus stop that she was very distressed, crying, wailing as such so the state she was in already coupled with the traumatic experience of being raped she would have been beside herself, completely traumatised and not knowing where she was or what shes doing has wandered the wrong way looking for help, screaming and wailing and wandered too far in the wrong direction.. only my opinion of course.. though did he go back??? thats the only part of the narrative that makes me think otherwise....

In this scenario I would have thought sobbing and wailing would be a more likely reaction than the "desperate" screaming heard by SA. I know people who saw her on Beverley Road used the word 'screaming', but I'd have expected that to be more along the lines of anger or frustration.