UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #22

[C.greek]

It seems when discussing the validity of the scream witnesses (which imo are the same screams) its ignored that the timing of both screams are when PR is at his car or leaving.
So although the overall sequence of events Sam witnessed would fit the prosecution version...timing doesn't...even though Sam allowed for his own variation due to memory

At 12.15 PR was definitely not in his car nor leaving. The man Mr Alford saw leaving the park was seen later than 12.15 when he heard the screams.

 

[Challwood]

Sorry if this has long been discussed/discredited but I’ve just been reading through old news articles and came across this report about further screams heard from 12.30 am. Do we know if these were later found to be nothing to do with Libby’s investigation?

Neighbour tells of hearing a terrified woman's scream at the time Libby went missing | Daily Mail Online

 

[Tortoise]

At 12.15 PR was definitely not in his car nor leaving. The man Mr Alford saw leaving the park was seen later than 12.15 when he heard the screams.

This is true, but we know he did rape Libby.

Do you think it's possible from his description that SA only heard screams lasting 2 minutes and that he saw PR leaving about 1.5 minutes after that?

 

[DiploRed]

It's not entirely obvious to me how the police knew PR had been to Oak Road or the park on any occasion that night. We've seen CCTV of him turning from Beverley Road into Berresford but there's many turnings between there and his destination. I don't recall seeing anything from then on. Perhaps they only know because he told them?.....in which case he must be kicking himself now that he didn't lie about that as well.

Because cameras never picked up Libby going back to Beverely Road and they don't pick her up on Oak Road either. That means the only place she could have gone is into Oak Road fields or in the boot of PR's car but they seemed to have ruled that one out a long time ago.

 

[Cherwell]

Sorry if this has long been discussed/discredited but I’ve just been reading through old news articles and came across this report about further screams heard from 12.30 am. Do we know if these were later found to be nothing to do with Libby’s investigation?
Neighbour tells of hearing a terrified woman's scream at the time Libby went missing | Daily Mail Online

I don't think anything further was reported about this, and since it hasn't been mentioned at the trial it must have been ruled out. Possibly someone identified themselves as being the source of the noises.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

So we are getting a good bit of snow in my area. The ground is covered. I have stated before I live on a 2 acre property which I google to be 4046 sq meters. Wooded area behind my house and the houses to either side are tree lined so I cannot see too far into their properties. I can however see a good distance on the property across the street from me. It is a large open field. The backs of houses face the field but there is a tree area before the houses. Not too thick that I cannot see lights on in the houses. The distance from my house to the tree lined area is roughly 260 meters. With all of the snow on the ground I could see if a person ran along that tree line. I definitely would not be able to see male/female or clothes. So the person running would have been closer for SA to make out sex and clothing. I tried to get the hubby to go over then walk back so I could see the distance he became visible enough for me to determine but he gave me a big NO. I think that the furthest I could see these details would be 70-80 meters. I have 20/20 vision. Just my little observation for the night! MOO

 

[Sillybilly]

Hey everyone,

It's been brought to our attention that members are not following Websleuths preferred policy of using initials in place of full names (i.e. Mr. Alford should be referred to as simply SA).

It's too late now as Moderators don't have time to go back through the entire discussion, but from this point on and in future case discussions, please remember to use initials for witnesses and all other individuals who are not either victim of POI/suspect/accused.

Thank you.

 

[JosieJo]

At 12.15 PR was definitely not in his car nor leaving. The man Mr Alford saw leaving the park was seen later than 12.15 when he heard the screams.

Look at his variation on timings ...woke at 12.14 ...1 to 2 min later screams started so 12.15 or 12.16 ....lasted between 4 and 7 min...taking us to ...best case 12.19 worst 12.23 ...PR was getting in his car 12.19 ..he was back at home running his bath st 12.23 !

Now we have another scream witness putting the screams even later ...imo they are same screams and there timing is out ...but it adds weight to Ssms later estimates

 

[catgreen]

Look at his variation on timings ...woke at 12.14 ...1 to 2 min later screams started so 12.15 or 12.16 ....lasted between 4 and 7 min...taking us to ...best case 12.19 worst 12.23 ...PR was getting in his car 12.19 ..he was back at home running his bath st 12.23 !

Now we have another scream witness putting the screams even later ...imo they are same screams and there timing is out ...but it adds weight to Ssms later estimates

I'm surprised that you are putting so much weight on timings from witnesses in the night, I don't think they can be taken as 'exact' and in light of the other evidence I dont give the timings much weight - for example 'Research suggests that witnesses may often overestimate actual duration (Loftus and Doyle, 1987; Loftus et al., 1987) and that duration estimates can be influenced by wording, with shorter estimates given when actions are described in terms of quick movement (Burt and Popple, 1996).' from this article Improving Time Estimation in Witness Memory

 

[Niner]

Okay - since I have not been here for 4 days due to my surgery - had to catch up over the weekend on the days that I missed. Now I can shortening this up...

Monday, February 1st:
*Trial continues (Day 12) (@ 10:30am UK) – UK – Liberty “Libby” Anna Squire (21) (last seen Jan. 31, 2019 outside Welly Club in Hull; found Mar. 20, 2019 from Grimsby Docks in the Humber Estuary) - *Pawel P. Relowicz (24/now 25) arrested (Feb. 6, 2019 on suspicion of abduction) officially charged (Oct. 30, 2019) with murder & rape. No plea entered yet. Not guilty plea entered on Jan. 12, 2021.
Trial began on Jan. 12, 2021. Trial will be in Sheffield. Richard Wright QC will lead, Mr. Woolfall prosecutor. Oliver Saxby QC for defense. Trial expected to last 6 weeks. Jury: 5 men & 7 women.
Was originally charged (18/3/19 & 10/5/19) with 5 counts of burglary, 4 counts of voyeurism, 3 counts of outraging public decency & 1 count of receiving stolen goods. On Aug. 12, 2019 plead guilty to 9 charges including voyeurism (4 counts), outraging public decency (2 counts) & burglary (3 counts). Relowicz jailed for eight & a half years.
Trial Day 1-7 (12/1 - 25/1/21) reference post #723 here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20
Jan. 25th Monday, Trial Day 8: Justice Lambert is now sitting. Relowicz has walked into the dock with a folder & has sat down. He is accompanied by three dock officers and is wearing a dark blue suit. The jury is now being brought in. A juror has asked where Libby’s coat was when she was pulled out of the water. Richard Wright QC says “there is no evidence the coat has ever been recovered.” The drone footage that was played on Friday afternoon was played again to the jury. Defence Opening statements: will be calling on 2 other witnesses who heard screams. Oliver Saxby QC says Relowicz’s evidence may go well into Wednesday. He says the defence will also call Drew Brewster & Hannah Berkin (#763); Mr. Saxby says at 12:30am on Feb. 1, 2019, they heard screaming coming from the playing fields. They say they heard three separate periods of screaming (#765); Libby was 'lost, disorientated and screaming desperately'(#765); Defence to call witness who heard Libby screaming in Beverley Road. Another witness, Ryan Thom, will be called. (#770); Defence barrister calls Relowicz's previous behaviour 'utterly disgusting'. Mr. Saxby says how Relowicz behaves is “utterly disgusting” & he has “violated homes & intimate possessions of student girls & has expressed his enjoyment by masturbating. It is, I repeat, disgusting.” (#772). Mr. Saxby says Relowicz “does not know” how Libby died. He said: “He was not there.” (#778) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20
Those who are innocent lie 'due to a childish fear they will not be believed', defence says. M.r Saxby is now talking about Mr Thornton, who says he saw Relowicz cleaning his car (#781). There is now a short break before Relowicz is due to take the stand. He is joined by an interpreter & 2 dock officers who he is chained to. Relowicz is now taking the oath with the bible. Relowicz's background (#816) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20
Relowicz says he masturbated while watching couple have sex; Relowicz has told the court he has never assaulted or attacked a woman. (#821); Relowicz confirms his previous offences (#832, #834 & #837) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20
Relowicz denies enjoying the prospect of rape or causing pain (#843); Relowicz questioned about January 31. Relowicz is being asked about driving away with Libby. (#854) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20
Relowicz: 'I was trying to commit voyeurism' (#861) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20
CCTV footage being shown; Relowicz is being shown CCTV footage of Libby walking from Wellesley Avenue onto Beverley Road & then falling over before being helped by two men. Relowicz was in the area at the time of Libby's disappearance to commit voyeurism; Relowicz admits he parked up at Haworth Street, close to where Libby was, to walk across to Beresford Avenue to look through windows and carry out a sex act. More details of defense opening (#927) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20
Relowicz explains why he approached Libby (#929, 930, 932 & 939) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20
'I did not rape Libby. I did not kill her'(#955) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20
Relowicz explains what happened at Oak Road (#970); Relowicz says they had sex next to car then left Libby at Oak Road (#976 & #977) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20
Relowicz was 'concerned for Libby'-Relowicz has been asked why he went back to Oak Road. (#989 & 990); Relowicz admits 'problem' after street sex act (#996) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20
Relowicz explains what he told his friends (#1015); Relowicz admits lying to police (#1017 & #1020) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20
The trial has finished for the day & will resume at the later time of 2pm tomorrow 26/1/21 where Relowicz will continue in the witness box. One of the barristers has another hearing on in the morning but Relowicz will take the stand again in the afternoon.
Jan. 26th Tuesday, Day 9: Justice Lambert is now sitting, the jury has been called up. An interpreter is waiting by the witness box for Relowicz to enter the court. 'I only wanted to help her'-Relowicz is being questioned once more by prosecution barrister Richard Wright QC (#73, #76 & #80) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
Relowicz disagrees that Libby was extremely vulnerable that night-Wright continues questioning (#81, #84); Libby was 'crying' and 'desperate' (#95); Relowicz now admits Libby was vulnerable (#99) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
Relowicz did not take Libby to a police station because of his 'English'; Mr Wright says Relowicz told officers he was “so worried” about her condition he was considering taking her not to a dark lane where he had sex with her but to a police station.(#102). Relowicz says they never went into the playing fields together (#111); Libby 'a very beautiful woman'. Mr Wright said: “You told the jury yesterday this was a ‘really beautiful girl.’ (#116); Libby was not a target for easy sex' Mr Wright has asked whether Libby “became a target” for the easy sex Relowicz was looking for. (#119) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
Prosecution accuses Relowicz of lying to police during his first interview-Mr Wright has said when police arrested Relowicz on February 6, he understood full well that it was essential that he told them about where, when and how he had last seen Libby. (#127). Relowicz says he knew how urgent it was to find Libby-The court has been told Relowicz told officers “That’s the whole truth” and that he “wanted to help so she was found.” (#129); Relowicz 'deliberately told lies'-Mr Wright says Relowicz made a deliberate decision to tell lies. (#130 & #132); Prosecution claims Relowicz knew Libby was 'not safe and sound'(#134) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
Sexual urges 'completely out of control'-Mr Wright has asked: “Do you agree in 2017, 2018 and 2019 you were regularly targeting young women and committing sexually motivated offences?” (#151); Relowicz denies rape and murder were the next step in his sexual deviance-Relowicz denied these urges were increasing as time went on (#157) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
Relowicz accused of leaving calling cards-During his previous offences Relowicz had left behind condoms (#168); Prosecution claim Relowicz got a kick out of scaring women (#172); Voyeurism not enough-Relowicz is being asked about an occasion where he carried out a sex act in front of two women on the corner of Alexandra Road. (#176); 'If it hadn't been Libby it would have been someone else'-Mr Wright said: “. Were your sexual urges increasing that January? Was your ability to control those urges decreasing?” (#179) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
Relowicz explains why he committed the offences-Mr Wright said: “I want you to help us understand what was it about doing these things that sexually excited you?” (#182) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
The trial has ended for Day 9. It will resume again at 10:30am tomorrow, 27/1/21.
Jan. 27th Wednesday, Day 10: Trial resumes: Justice Lambert is now sitting & Relowicz - wearing the same blue suit - is on his way from the dock to the witness box to continue giving evidence. The jury are being brought in. Relowicz keeps glancing up at Libby’s mum and dad in the public gallery. M.r Wright will continue to cross-examine him now. Cross-examination continues: Relowicz says he lied to police-Prosecution barrister Richard Wright QC has asked Relowicz: “Can we, this morning, move on to examine first of all some of the lies you told in interview? But more importantly to understand why you say you were out at all on January 31.” (#550, #552 & #554); Relowicz questioned over trip to Oak Road-He says he knew - apart from the house where Sam Alford lived - there was no other houses on Oak Road.(#559) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
Student accommodation brochure 'just so happened' to be in same draw as vibrator and lubricant-Mr Wright has said Relowicz had a brochure of student accommodation and “had an interest” in where students lived. (#564); Relowicz searched for women for over three hours-By the time Relowicz parked on Haworth Street he had been driving around for around three hours and 20 minutes. (#574, #575 &# 577); Jury shown chilling CCTV of Pawel following another woman walking alone-The court is being shown chilling CCTV footage of Relowicz pulled up on Newland Avenue.(#580) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
'Did you find street lamps or bollards or shop fronts sexually attractive?'-“Within a minute,” Mr Wright said, “you were out of your car masturbating in the street on the corner next to Chicken George.” (#582); Relowicz admits continued search for women 'to masturbate in front of'-The prosecution and Relowicz are debating how long the sex act went on for. (#592) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
Relowicz 'thinking about his wife' during 3am walk in Newland Avenue-Mr Wright said: “Even after ejaculating into the condom you masturbated into you still didn’t want to go home to sleep you wanted to drive around and look for women.” (#601); Relowicz 'never told' his wife about previous offences-Mr Wright says Relowicz told the court he was “emotionally broken down” at the thought that he had cheated. (#605 & #606); Prosecution tells Relowicz his explanation of that night is 'very convenient'-Mr Wright said: “For nearly four hours before you met Libby Squire you had been driving around trying to find a woman to offend against, and you failed to find anybody. (#607) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
Relowicz is back in the witness box after short break-Mr Wright is taking Relowicz through his police interviews and what he said about meeting Libby at this time. (#626); Relowicz accused of changing story to fit his defence (#630); Relowicz questioned on the moment he first saw Libby-Mr Wright said: “You went into Beresford Avenue to look for a woman to masturbate at. Let’s take a look at what you were seen doing.” (#633); 'You were interested in Libby Squire, weren’t you?'-Mr Wright said: “You waited in the shadows of Beresford Avenue and watched the girl you had noticed didn’t you?” (#639) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
'I was simply curious about her'-He has been asked whether he was interested in Libby as a target, which he has denied. (#643); Prosecution accuses Relowicz of only 'pretending' to help Libby-Mr Wright said: “Here you did have an opportunity to masturbate at her. You told us all that was on your mind as you drove around that evening was to masturbate at a woman. (#650); Relowicz took Libby's hand as they walked towards his car-Relowicz has been told that he told police in his interview he had “taken hold of Libby’s hand” as they walked down Beverley Road. (#652); Relowicz did not help Libby up while the other car was present-Relowicz said Libby then sat on the floor. (#656); Prosecution says Relowicz was 'waiting until the coast was clear'-Mr Wright said: “You were waiting until they were gone and, as Mr Handisides said, Libby was shouting, ‘Don’t leave me’ at the car with the Romanians in it wasn’t she? (#657) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
Mr Wright said: “Can you help us as to how you thought you were helping Libby Squire sitting in your car with your door open as she was on the floor at the entrance to Haworth Street?” (#685); Prosecution say Relowicz 'shepherded' Libby into his car-In the footage Libby can be seen walking from left to right at the end of Haworth Street. (#691 & #692); Relowicz asked about Libby's broken watch (#693) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
Relowicz accused of planning to take Libby to Oak Road (#701); Relowicz denies knowing where he was taking Libby (#703); 'Five versions of what happened' (#705); Relowicz laughs while giving evidence-During questioning over where and for how long Relowicz had sex with Libby for, he suddenly laughed. (#716); Relowicz says he drove off after Libby scratched his face (#719) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
'I never entered Oak Road playing fields'-Relowicz says at no point did he enter the playing fields. He also says at no point when Libby was with him did she enter the playing fields. (#744); Relowicz says he left Libby 'screaming and crying in anger'-Relowicz said: “When I was driving away she then started screaming and crying. In my opinion that’s how it looked like. The windows were pulled down I could hear all the time. (#748); Relowicz asked if he heard screaming near the River Hull-Mr Wright referred back to the evidence of nearby resident Sam Alford who heard screaming at 12.14am from the River Hull at the same time Relowicz claims he was at Oak Road with Libby. (#755); Relowicz says he was not he man seen running across the playing fields-Mr Wright said: “And that man who was seen leaving the playing fields can’t be you can it? You say you never entered the park at all, so it can’t possibly be you, forget about the time because you never went there? (#760) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
Prosecution puts it to Relowicz he put Libby in the river (#770); Relowicz questioned about his five versions of events (#771) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
Five versions of events listed here (#786); Relowicz admits defence statement is 'not true'-Relowicz has admitted the defence statement written almost a year ago is not true. (#790); Relowicz tries to explain why he lied (#792); 'I lied as I needed time to accept my problems'-Mr Wright asked Relowicz why he was lying. (#798) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
Relwoicz accused of trying to fit the evidence (#811); Prosecution on why Relowicz had a scratched face (#816) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21
The trial has concluded for the day. There will be no sitting on Thursday so the trial will resume at 10am on Friday, 29/1/21.
Jan. 29th Friday, Day 11: Trial about to resume. Justice Lambert is now sitting. Relowicz - dressed in the same blue suit he has worn since the start of the trial - is being taken to the witness box by three dock officers. The jury are on their way up to the courtroom. Cross examination continues. Prosecutor Richard Wright QC will continue his crosss examination of Relowicz on day 11 of the trial. Relowicz explains why he lied about his clothing (#99) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #22
Why did Relowicz return to Oak Road for a third time?-Relowicz is now being asked about his third visit to the playing fields, in the early hours of February 1. (#101); Relowicz admits lying about getting not getting out of his car (#108); Relowicz accused of returning to 'clean up' after killing Libby-Mr Wright said: “You were lying because you got out of your car to make sure you had cleaned up after what you had done to Libby Squire. (#111);CCTV cameras forced Relowicz to kill - prosecution claims (#115); Witnesses who heard screaming to give evidence (#118) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #22
Neighbour heard screaming-Drew Brewster has now been called to the witness box (#133) here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...-welly-club-hull-31-jan-2019-22.557645-page-7
Screams could have come from an animal-Mr. Brewster continues (#141); Neighbour heard “high-pitched female scream”-Mr Brewster's partner Hannah Durkin has been called to the witness box.(#146) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #22
Trial ends for the day. It has been a short session for day 11. The trial will resume on Monday, 1/2/21 when there maybe one more witness & then it is likely then the closing speeches & summing up will take place. The jury will retire to consider their verdict after that.

 

[Sooty]

I'm surprised that you are putting so much weight on timings from witnesses in the night, I don't think they can be taken as 'exact' and in light of the other evidence I dont give the timings much weight - for example 'Research suggests that witnesses may often overestimate actual duration (Loftus and Doyle, 1987; Loftus et al., 1987) and that duration estimates can be influenced by wording, with shorter estimates given when actions are described in terms of quick movement (Burt and Popple, 1996).' from this article Improving Time Estimation in Witness Memory

unfortunately, due to the 7.5 minutes max that PR was in the vicinity- timing is paramount. He says he left her outside the park at 12:19 alive.

 

[JosieJo]

I'm surprised that you are putting so much weight on timings from witnesses in the night, I don't think they can be taken as 'exact' and in light of the other evidence I dont give the timings much weight - for example 'Research suggests that witnesses may often overestimate actual duration (Loftus and Doyle, 1987; Loftus et al., 1987) and that duration estimates can be influenced by wording, with shorter estimates given when actions are described in terms of quick movement (Burt and Popple, 1996).' from this article Improving Time Estimation in Witness Memory

I've not said I've given them any weight ...im stating what times the witness quotes and that he is back at his car at this point as per cctv
I totally agree timings can be out ....but ...SA also knew this as he gave his own variations on length of time allowing for this .. so we are now have to extend this further ourselves,?? When he has already gave his shortest and longest estimates?

As stated im not putting weight on the timings im stating what was said in court ...if he had said a precise time say he heard the screams start at exactly 12.16 and they lasted 4 minutes...yes imo you have to extend it either way ...but he didn't he gave his longest and shortest option himself

Also he stated he was absolutely sure of the time he woke ...so starting point correct

 

[Newthoughts]

May I ask a question? Is this trial both for rape and murder or for murder only?

Both

 

[Newthoughts]

Have been here since the beginning but unfortunately not able to give all the posts enough time to really assess all the detailed analyses of the timings, geography and witness evidence which I agree is important to this case. I admit I come at cases from an emotional viewpoint (and I think most people also feel this way about this case because of the very strong connection that Libby's tragic story has made with all of us). And I tend to focus on the perpetrator's psychology and what the crime tells us about him and what he is likely to go on to do. I am no expert and tbh shy sometimes shy away from the serial rapists/murderers because they are so disturbing. But they are hard to avoid among the podcasts and true crime shows that I watch and the investigations and how they are caught are fascinating.

I can remember being so relieved when Libby's body was found, chiefly for her family of course but also that it should help the case, which indeed it did. Of course it has always been common for many of this type of killer to place their victims in water (outside, or to put the victim in their own bath) to destroy evidence even before DNA. Or to prevent the victim being found altogether. Not something I like thinking about but the female body does have the ability to preserve DNA within the (virtually sealed) uterus which I am wondering if that is where the pathologist extracted the evidence from. So a rape conviction is a given as I am sure consent was not possible ( or likely) owing to Libby's dire condition at the time and also because I am totally confident that PR is a rapist and that was his intent which I think is clearly shown by his actions that night towards Libby and would be a common trajectory/escalation of his previous criminal sexual offending.

As to the murder charge, to me it makes more sense that PR put Libby into the river, than she just happened to end up there. Yes, drunken people often stumble into water but I don't know of another case where a rape victim has been known to do this. I think it is reasonable to assume that the rapist caused this in the pattern of the crime. And then you have the colossal amount of lies PR has told to fit the evidence, which strongly suggests to me that I am correct in assuming that he is lying about the totality of what he did to Libby.

Really good post.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Glad to see you back @Niner . I hope your feeling well!!

 

[Newthoughts]

Hope you're feeling well @Niner thanks for the update

 

[astheworldfallsdown]

Welcome back @Niner , hope everything went well for you.

 

[mrjitty]

I think there is a strong possibility that she fell over into the water, on her own.

My issue with this scenario, is why would she now just get out?

I mean I accept she could die of exposure that night, but if she went in the water, it does not look difficult for her to climb back out - she would not die that fast

And then we should have found the body in the park.

 

[jamjim]

Hello again @Niner! Hope your surgery was successful and you're recovering well! Thank you for the info as always

 

[mrjitty]

I'm sure Mr Jitty will be along in due course.

I really want to get a decent view of the prosecution summing up before committing too much time to this.

For me the only real issue left is whether she went in the river by accident under her own power, or he threw her in. So the timings are everything. But obviously CPS will have looked into all this in detail, so there must be some ways it can work for murder, or the case would not have been brought.

Interestingly, if he did rape and run, and she ran screaming into the river - he could be found guilty of manslaughter IMO, as his illegal attack could be said to have caused her death. So he is responsible more in a negligent way.