UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #22

[Newthoughts]

Re the screams: The screams were heard. Both sets of witnesses heard that same type of screams punctuated by gaps. Both from the same location. SA sees a man leaving the location of the screams. Neither heard two sets of screams.

Realistically - why not?

According to PRs testimony Libby is nowhere near that location neither is he. He's outside but he doesn't hear the screams. Why not (stupid omission on his part IMO)?

PR says Libby screams in some kind of generic way at him from a location that's far closer to housing and closer to one set of witnesses. Nobody hears that scream from that location. Why not?

Who is the man SA sees walking?

Who is the woman that was screaming near the pond?

 

[mrjitty]

It could do with a legal expert to explain the murder definition properly.

I think the short version at this stage is that it really all comes down to whether the jury believes he put her in the river via a direct act, or she got in there by accident (e.g. he chased her in, or she blundered in after he left),

If he threw her in, then the murderous intent will be an obvious inference from his actions.

If he chased her in, but not intentionally - that could be manslaughter, as an alternative.

But I really want to hear the prosecution summing up as I feel we have only a very basic view of what their case is.

 

[HullGirl72]

Thoughts with Libby’s family today.

 

[Newthoughts]

Thoughts with Libby’s family today.

Yes exactly two years ago today.

Thoughts with her family, boyfriend and friends. She'd be in her first job now, or further studying.

 

[astheworldfallsdown]

Yes exactly two years ago today.

Thoughts with her family, boyfriend and friends. She'd be in her first job now, or further studying.

What a terrible terrible day for them all

 

[Niner]

Glad to see you back @Niner . I hope your feeling well!!

Hope you're feeling well @Niner thanks for the update

Welcome back @Niner , hope everything went well for you.

Hello again @Niner! Hope your surgery was successful and you're recovering well! Thank you for the info as always

Thank you! I feel great! Surgery was successful! I believe I'm back to "normal"!! My right carotid artery is now 100% unblocked (it was 90% blocked). Now I have to wait for March for my left one, which is blocked 80%....

 

[Ruthbullock]

My issue with this scenario, is why would she now just get out?

I mean I accept she could die of exposure that night, but if she went in the water, it does not look difficult for her to climb back out - she would not die that fast

And then we should have found the body in the park.

Tidal river banks are incredibly muddy and slippy and it is easy to get your legs stuck in the mud, and LS had impaired coordination thrown into the mix.

 

[Newthoughts]

Tidal river banks are incredibly muddy and slippy and it is easy to get your legs stuck in the mud, and LS had impaired coordination thrown into the mix.

So how did she get in? Far enough in to get washed into the Humber Estuary.

And who was the woman screaming when she was supposedly elsewhere with PR?

Who was the man?

 

[NottReds50]

Hello, I just had a few thoughts about this;

IF she was left outside of the park, does she under her own steam, uncoordinated walk through a gate, which by the looks of it on Google Maps is pretty sheltered, away from the brighter lights of a residential area, into a "dimly" park and walk all the way through said park and into the river with enough force to avoid banks/mud/reeds?

I guess IF she was left in the park, would the yeast factory be lit up at night, she might have got confused and walked towards that.

If there is CCTV of them both entering the park, as the prosecution states, and all CCTV has been shown in court, yet PR is still peddling his story of them NOT entering at all, that's a bit of a strange one IMO

 

[Sooty]

So how did she get in? Far enough in to get washed into the Humber Estuary.

And who was the woman screaming when she was supposedly elsewhere with PR?

Who was the man?

1) I do not know the geography of the river hull which obviously will dictate movement in the river but i believe that it would be usual for a body, once drowned, would fall quickly to the river bed at the deepest point - currents would impact also. It is not a static body of water, it is very dynamic, particularly so being tidal.

 

[Newthoughts]

Hello, I just had a few thoughts about this;

IF she was left outside of the park, does she under her own steam, uncoordinated walk through a gate, which by the looks of it on Google Maps is pretty sheltered, away from the brighter lights of a residential area, into a "dimly" park and walk all the way through said park and into the river with enough force to avoid banks/mud/reeds?

I guess IF she was left in the park, would the yeast factory be lit up at night, she might have got confused and walked towards that.

If there is CCTV of them both entering the park, as the prosecution states, and all CCTV has been shown in court, yet PR is still peddling his story of them NOT entering at all, that's a bit of strange one IMO

For your first point I think yes. The prosecutor said that if PR is correct she has to turn around from a brightly lit residential street and go up a dark path and into a dark park. Then she has to go across that park to the river at some point.

Also somebody will have been screaming in the park whilst she would have been with PR. If the witnesses could hear it it's highly likely she could. So after being raped she goes into a dark park where someone has been screaming.k

Then she has to get into the river. It appears to have muddy banks and inclines up to it many points. I could accept her falling in if PR had taken her closer to that river but he NEVER mentions that as an option.

So in the park is dark, a woman has screamed and a man has walked out and Libby has still gone in after being raped and gone to the river.

 

[NottReds50]

For your first point I think yes. The prosecutor said that if PR is correct she has to turn around from a brightly lit residential street and go up a dark path and into a dark park. Then she has to go across that park to the river at some point.

Also somebody will have been screaming in the park whilst she would have been with PR. If the witnesses could hear it it's highly likely she could. So after being raped she goes into a dark park where someone has been screaming.k

Then she has to get into the river. It appears to have muddy banks and inclines up to it many points. I could accept her falling in if PR had taken her closer to that river but he NEVER mentions that as an option.

So in the park is dark, a woman has screamed and a man has walked out and Libby has still gone in after being raped and gone to the river.

These were pretty much my points, so I agree with you.

 

[mrjitty]

What I am wondering about is whether Libby was screaming because she was in the river ...

 

[Newthoughts]

What I am wondering about is whether Libby was screaming because she was in the river ...

I'd have to hear the pathologists evidence but from the way it appears to have been summarised at the time - he could not rule out drowning but it wouldn't be his likely explanation. Now I don't know whether that addition to the summary means anything at all.

I think to be able to scream would show clearer - even if more residual at that point - signs of drowning. But I'm not an expert.

But I do know scientists and there is quite a distinction 'between can't be proved conclusively' and 'but I don't think so'. So its up to that

Would the absence of a manslaughter option be relevant there?
JMO

 

[Sarahjo]

Hello, I just had a few thoughts about this;

IF she was left outside of the park, does she under her own steam, uncoordinated walk through a gate, which by the looks of it on Google Maps is pretty sheltered, away from the brighter lights of a residential area, into a "dimly" park and walk all the way through said park and into the river with enough force to avoid banks/mud/reeds?

I guess IF she was left in the park, would the yeast factory be lit up at night, she might have got confused and walked towards that.

If there is CCTV of them both entering the park, as the prosecution states, and all CCTV has been shown in court, yet PR is still peddling his story of them NOT entering at all, that's a bit of a strange one IMO

Did the prosecution say there was CCTV of them IN the park or just AT the park? I think if there’s been CCTV shown of them actually IN the park he would have to change his story again and the fact that he’s not leads me to believe no other CCTV other than what we’ve seen has been shown.

 

[NottReds50]

What I am wondering about is whether Libby was screaming because she was in the river ...

Yes - I guess that is a possibility, and she sadly stopped after succumbing to cold/exhaustion rather than drowning. We would probably need to see the full pathology report in it's full context to get a better idea.

I don't know enough about the river dynamics of The Hull, but how soon might have something be swept further down stream from that point?

Did the prosecution say there was CCTV of them IN the park or just AT the park? I think if there’s been CCTV shown of them actually IN the park he would have to change his story again and the fact that he’s not leads me to believe no other CCTV other than what we’ve seen has been shown.

I'm sure I read it as that (I may be totally wrong so apologies), but I agree, he's either flat-line denying or there isn't any other CCTV.

 

[Tortoise]

My issue with this scenario, is why would she now just get out?

I mean I accept she could die of exposure that night, but if she went in the water, it does not look difficult for her to climb back out - she would not die that fast

And then we should have found the body in the park.

I don't agree it would be easy for Libby to have got herself out of the river.

A poster here has even desribed the under currents and freezing temperatures.

Then there is her lack of coordination from heavy intoxication, and numbness of extremities from hypothermia.

The expert estimated she would have survived for 30 minutes before succumbing to hypothermia, after entering the water. That is the same estimate I can find given on other sites like the lifeboats and st johns ambulance etc, but that doesn't seem to take account of Libby already being hypothermic before she went in, which they have stated she was.

 

[jamjim]

10:04
Today's schedule

The defence is expected to call its last witness today, which will be the end of the evidence in the trial.

After that, the prosecution and defence will both give closing speeches and the judge will sum up the evidence in the case to the jury.

Libby Squire murder trial live updates as Relowicz defence continues

 

[mrazda71]

I cannot imagine the strength it would take Libby's loved ones, to attend court today and sit opposite him ... Whatever the outcome of the trial - he IS the reason she is dead. He took her away from the relative safety (even drunk & hypothermic) of the busy street, when she was going in the direction of home and took her to the place where her life ended.

I don't believe in any God but, if he does I hope he knows that he's going to Hell.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Hello, I just had a few thoughts about this;

IF she was left outside of the park, does she under her own steam, uncoordinated walk through a gate, which by the looks of it on Google Maps is pretty sheltered, away from the brighter lights of a residential area, into a "dimly" park and walk all the way through said park and into the river with enough force to avoid banks/mud/reeds?

I guess IF she was left in the park, would the yeast factory be lit up at night, she might have got confused and walked towards that.

If there is CCTV of them both entering the park, as the prosecution states, and all CCTV has been shown in court, yet PR is still peddling his story of them NOT entering at all, that's a bit of a strange one IMO

BBM- if I was being attacked by someone with a car, as ridiculous as it sounds (and this is my logical head, not an impaired head talking), I would run into the dark park in the hopes that I could hide, at worst he would chase me and I could hopefully escape in the dark. If I stayed on the main road, he would be able to see me clearly and follow me either by foot or using his vehicle. Whilst it may seem illogical to many, I genuinely believe that would be the move I would make, logical or not.