Defence Case Friday 19th May 2023 - LUCY LETBY'S CROSS-EXAMINATION
CHILD D
Chester Standard updates -
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 19 - cross-examination continues
11:11am
Mr Johnson now moves on to the case of Child D.
Letby's defence statement said she did not believe she had any involvement with Child D until the baby girl's collapse.
Letby says she was affected by Child D's death, as were all staff on the unit.
In police interview, Letby had said she could not recall Child D.
Letby recalls looking after two babies in room 1 on the night of June 21-22. Caroline Oakley was the designated nurse for Child D and a baby in room 2.
Letby accepts "from time to time" she would have been alone in room 1 as Caroline Oakley split her time caring for the two babies between the two rooms.
11:35am
Part of a statement from Child D's mother is read out.
Letby disputes she was the nurse who held a phone to Dr Andrew Brunton's ear while resuscitation efforts were going on.
Letby says she can recall there was such an incident, as it was talked about after the event. She agrees it happened, but she disagrees it was her who made the phone call.
Mr Johnson asks about a series of Countess nursing staff's descriptions of the "unusual" skin discolouration and an 'odd' rash. Some of them said it was something they had not seen before.
Letby says she does not dispute the staff's descriptions, but cannot comment on what they did or did not see.
NJ: "Do you still not remember [Child D]?"
LL: "I didn't recall at the time of my police interview, no."
NJ: "Do you remember her now?"
LL: "Yes."
NJ: "Do you remember the circumstances surrounding her death?"
LL: "No."
Letby messaged a colleague on June 22: '...[Child D] came out in this weird rash looking like overwhelming sepsis'.
Letby said she had not seen the type of rash often before, but she had seen something similar in her training years before.
The message added: 'Then collapsed and had full resus. So upsetting for everyone. Parents absolutely distraught, dad screaming'
Mr Johnson asks if Letby was lying to police when she said she didn't remember Child D.
Letby: "No."
Letby's message added: 'Andrew [Brunton] and Liz [Newby] said it'll be probably be investigated'.
'Hmm well it's happened & that's it. Got to carry on...'
Mr Johnson said he had earlier asked if that was Letby's reaction to Child D's death.
Letby: "I don't think it was meant in the context you are suggesting...we've got to move forward...it's not meant to be any insensitivity to the parents or [Child D]."
11:54am
The trial is resuming following a short break.
Mr Johnson asks about the Facebook search for Child D's mother on June 25, 2015. He asks how she remembers the name of Child D's mother if she did not recall Child D in police interview in 2018.
Letby says she recalled the name of the mother in June 2015.
NJ: "You have got a good memory for names?"
LL: "Yes."
NJ: "You carry them in your head?"
LL: "Yeah."
NJ: "Would you say you've got a good memory?"
LL: "Yeah."
12:06pm
Letby is asked about messages she had exchanged with Minna Lappalainen on June 26 in which she said: "What I have seen has really hit me tonight."
Minna Lappalainen suggests a counsellor for Letby.
LL: "I can't talk about it now, I can't stop crying..."
The reply suggests Letby take time off and consider if she should be at work during this time. Letby replies she has to keep carrying on working after saying "I just have to let it all out".
NJ: "This was a very memorable time of your life, wasn't it?"
LL: "Yes."
Messages between Letby and a colleague are exchanged.
The colleague said there was "something odd" about what had happened.
Letby is asked if 'What do you mean?' was what she really thought, as per her response.
NJ: "Were you worried that people were starting to put two and two together?"
LL: "No."
Letby had messaged: "Odd that we lost 3 in different circumstances?"
Letby tells the court the circumstances were different.
The colleague: "I dunno. Were they that different?
"Ignore me. I'm speculating."
The colleague says there was talk of doing a joint post-mortem for three babies who had died.
Letby searched for the father of Child D on October 3, 2015.
"You didn't really forget [Child D], did you?"
LL: "I didn't recall specific details in interview."
Mr Johnson says Facebook does not archive the name searches beyond a certain number, so every time Letby searched a name, it would be from memory. Letby accepts that.
Letby says Child D "did not have appropriate treatment at the start of her life" and that "may have had an impact" on her later in life.
NJ: "The [lack of antibiotics early on] don't cause an air embolus, do they?"
LL: "No."
12:10pm
Letby is asked if Caroline Oakley's notes showed Child D was stable prior to the collapse.
"Do you accept the evidence that [Child D's designated nurse in room 1] Caroline Oakley was on a break when [Child D] collapsed?"
Letby says she cannot recall. "I cannot say either way because I don't know."
"Do you want to make any further comment about it?"
"No."
Letby accepts that if Caroline Oakley was on a break, the other nurse in room 1 was herself.
Kathryn Percival-Ward had also given evidence saying Caroline Oakley was on a break, Mr Johnson tells the court.
NJ: "Do you accept that Caroline Oakley was on a break?"
LL: "Yes."
12:14pm
The neonatal schedule is shown to the court.
Mr Johnson says there is nothing for Letby's name between 1am and 1.30am - the latter when Child D collapsed.
A blood gas record is shown for Child D at 1.14am.
NJ: "That was done by you, wasn't it?"
LL: "I don't know."
NJ: "That's your writing, isn't it?"
LL: "It could be?"
Mr Johnson asserts it is.
Letby: "It looks like my writing, yes."
Mr Johnson asks why it isn't signed by her.
"It's just an oversight, like the next line [which also isn't signed], it's an error."
12:24pm
Observations for Child D are shown, including readings at 1.15am. It is signed by Caroline Oakley.
Mr Johnson says Caroline Oakley had told the court she got those details for the 1.15am observation "from the girls".
Letby says she does not remember that bit of evidence.
Letby says she does not recall who was looking after Child D when Caroline Oakley was on her break.
An infusion chart is shown where Child D is given a saline bolus. Letby says the handwriting in the 'date and time started' column is likely to be hers.
"Did you take the opportunity while Caroline was out to sabotage [Child D]?"
"No."
Mr Johnson says "You were standing over her when the alarms went off, weren't you?"
LL: "I don't recall."
Mr Johnson says who the 'candidates' could have been. One of the nurses says she wasn't there in evidence. Another is Kathryn Percival-Ward, and Letby agrees she could have been there. Another nurse is discounted.
Letby says she cannot recall if it was her who was in room 1.
A fluid balance chart is shown to the court, with the note 'oral secretions++'. Letby says the handwriting "could" be hers.
Letby said it could have been something she had documented alongside Caroline Oakley.
Mr Johnson suggests Letby was "babysitting" Child D.
Letby adds she "cannot comment" if she had been in nursery room 1 throughout.
The neonatal schedule is shown to the court.
Letby denies she has "ever" falsified paperwork to make it look like she was doing one activity at one time when doing another.
12:27pm
The schedule shows Letby was involved in giving medications to Child D before the second collapse at 3am.
NJ: "Do you remember that?"
LL: "No."
An infusion for Child D is made by Letby and Caroline Oakley at 3.20am.
NJ: "[Child D] died because you injected her with air, didn't you?"
LL: "No, no...I did not give her air."
12:28pm
Letby said she was looking after other babies, "not just [Child D]".
LL: "I tried to be as co-operative as I could be [to police in interview]."
12:32pm
Letby asks for a break.
Mr Johnson says he just requires to tidy up something which should take two minutes, in the case of Child C.
He refers to the bereavement checklist.
Letby says hand and footprints were taken before death in certain cases.
Mr Johnson says the checklist is 'for staff following neonatal death'.
The judge says there will be an early lunch break, and court will resume at 1.45pm.
2:50pm
The judge, Mr Justice James Goss, has entered the courtroom.
The judge is informing members of the jury the trial will not resume today. He says the adjournment is for reasons that should not concern them.
The next day the trial will be held, as planned, will be Wednesday, May 24.
Members of the jury are being reminded not to conduct independent research or communicate with anyone involved in the case.
3:32pm
That concludes our coverage from today.
The Standard will be back at Manchester Crown Court on Wednesday, May 24, for further live coverage throughout the day as Lucy Letby's cross-examination is expected to resume.
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Sky News -
Lucy Letby murder trial latest: Questioning ends early - after 'baby killer' nurse accused of 'faking hospital notes' for alibi
5h ago11:14
Recap: Who is Child D?
Child D is a girl and Lucy Letby is charged with her murder.
The prosecution says she died after an intentional injection of air into the bloodstream and collapsed three times in the early hours of 22 June 2015.
On the third collapse, she could not be revived.
Letby later searched for the parents on Facebook.
A reminder - there are strict reporting restrictions in place which mean that none of Letby's alleged victims or their families can be identified.
5h ago11:19
Letby left alone with Child D before she collapsed
Like the previous child, Child D was not Lucy Letby's allocated baby to care for at the Countess of Chester hospital.
"Were you affected at all by the death of Child D?" Nick Johnson KC, for the prosecution, asks.
"We were all affected on the unit that night," Letby says.
"Would you answer for yourself and not others?"
"Yes."
Letby told the police she could not remember much about Child D.
"That is not true, is it?" Mr Johnson says.
The court is then shown a map of the unit. Child D was in nursery one. Letby was looking after another baby in the same room, but because her colleague was also looking after a child in another room, Letby agrees she would have been "left alone" with Child D "from time to time".
Letby says she had very little contact with Child D, but the prosecution says this is disputed by Child D's mother.
She previously told the court Letby was the nurse holding the phone to the doctor's ear as he tried to resuscitate her.
"I have no memory of doing it," Letby says.
"Do you dispute it?"
Letby says she cannot confirm it either way because she has no memory of it. She can confirm there was such an incident - and the wrong mother was phoned when Child D collapsed.
5h ago11:40
Child D's dad 'was screaming', Letby says in texts to colleague
A colleague of Lucy Letby has previously told the court that Child D, a girl, had an "unusual" rash - it was "a deep red-brown, different from mottling, different from what I had seen before".
Asked if the nurse was mistaken about what she saw, Letby says: "No."
She says she does recall the particular rash.
"And you still cannot recall Child D?" Mr Johnson says.
Letby says she did not recall Child D at the time of the police interview but does remember her now - though she does not remember the circumstances of her death.
The court is then shown a series of messages between Letby and a colleague.
Letby: "We had such a rubbish night. Our job is just far too sad sometimes."
Colleague: "No, what happened."
Letby: "We lost [Child D]."
Colleague: "What!!!! But she was improving What happened."
Colleague: "Wanna chat? I can't believe you were on again. You are having such a tough time."
Letby: "Messed about a couple of times & came out in this weird rash looking like overwhelming sepsis."
Letby: "Then collapsed & had full resus. So upsetting for everyone. Parents absolutely distraught, dad screaming."
Letby then tells her colleague the case will "probably be investigated".
"When you told police you didn't remember Child D, that was a lie, wasn't it?" Mr Johnson asks Letby.
She denies she lied.
4h ago11:42
'Well it's happened and that's it': Text Letby sent after Child D's death
The court is shown a final text from Letby, sent after Child D's death.
"Hmm well it's happened & that's it. Got to carry on. I finish for nearly 2 weeks after next Fri, so I'll keep ploughing on."
The prosecution has claimed this is evidence she wasn't affected by Child D's death.
"You were enjoying this, weren't you, Lucy Letby?" Nick Johnson KC, for the prosecution, asks again.
"No."
4h ago11:43
Court adjourned for break
The court has been adjourned for a short break. Proceedings will begin again shortly.
4h ago11:58
Court resumes with Letby's Facebook searches
Proceedings are under way again after a short break.
Nick Johnson KC, for the prosecution, begins by showing Lucy Letby's Facebook search history.
At 9.51pm on 25 June 2015 - three days after Child D died - Letby searched for the baby's mother on the social media site.
Mr Johnson asks why, if Letby did not recall Child D, she was able to recall the name of her parents to search for them on Facebook.
"Have you got a good memory for names?" Mr Johnson asks.
"Yes."
4h ago12:06
'Something odd about that night': Colleague's text to Letby after baby's death
More texts between Lucy Letby and one of her colleagues are being shown in court.
Letby tells her she is feeling awful.
Colleague: "Just think carefully about whether you should be working if you feel so bad."
Colleague: "Maybe you need to take time off."
Letby: "Work is always my priority I won't let it affect it. I just haven't let myself cry over it until now... Once I've let it out tonight my head will be clearer."
Her colleague then questions some of the deaths.
Colleague: "Yeah there is something odd about that night and the other three that went so suddenly."
Letby: "What do you mean?"
Letby: "Odd that we lost three and in different circumstances?"
Colleague: "I dunno. Were they that different?"
Colleague: "Ignore me. I am speculating."
Letby texts back and tries to explain the differences between the children.
4h ago12:07
Letby searched for baby's father three months after death - despite saying she didn't remember her
Three months after the death of Child D, the court is told, Lucy Letby searched for her father on Facebook.
When first interviewed, Letby told police she could not remember Child D.
"You didn't really forget Child D, did you?" asks Nick Johnson KC, for the prosecution.
Letby says Child D died because she did not receive the right treatment at the start of her life.
4h ago12:22
Letby says she does not recall standing over baby as alarms sounded
Lucy Letby is being questioned about why she didn't sign some of Child D's medical records.
"It's just an error that happens from time to time," she tells the court.
Child D's designated nurse was absent when the infant collapsed.
"Did you take the opportunity while [colleague] was absent to sabotage Child D?" Nick Johnson KC, for the prosecution, asks.
"No."
When the alarms sounded, Letby was found standing over Child D - she tells the court she cannot recall this.
"I would have been in nursery one with my babies but other staff may have been in and out of the nursery as well."
4h ago12:39
Letby denies falsifying paperwork as an alibi
The prosecution claims Lucy Letby altered paperwork to make it appear as if she were looking after another baby when Child D collapsed on 22 June 2015.
The baby collapsed three times before she died.
"I have not falsified any paperwork," Letby says.
"Child D died because you injected her with air, didn't you?" Nick Johnson KC, for the prosecution, asks.
"No," Letby replies.
"I did not give her air."
"Did you think the paperwork wouldn't tie you to Child D at the time she collapsed?" Mr Johnson asks.
After asking him to rephrase the question, Letby says: "No, I had other babies. I wasn't caring for Child D."
"Did you take the decision to say 'No I didn't remember her' to avoid answering questions?" Mr Johnson asks.
Letby says she tried to be as cooperative as possible with the police.
The prosecution points out that Letby has previously said she has a good memory for names.
Mr Johnson tries to continue with questioning but Letby requests a break.
Before a break is granted, Mr Johnson first asks Letby about her previous claim that it is possible to take hand and footprints from a baby before they die.
(Letby previously told the court this is what she was helping Child C's parents do, which is why she was in the room as he was dying.)
But a document shown to the court says these are usually taken after death. Letby says it is not unusual for it to be done before a child dies.
"You shouldn't have been having anything to do with Child C at this point, should you?" Mr Johnson says.
4h ago12:39
Court breaks for early lunch
Lucy Letby requested a break so the court has now adjourned for an early lunch.
It will resume at 1.45pm.
2h ago13:55
Court delayed
There is a delay to this afternoon's proceedings - court will not restart for at least 30 minutes.
We will bring you more updates as we get them.
1h ago14:52
Court ends early with Letby in dock
Court has temporarily resumed but only so the judge, Mr Justice Goss, can formally adjourn it for the day.
"I have made the decision that we shouldn't continue this afternoon," Justice Goss tells the jury.
Lucy Letby did not return to the witness stand but was back behind the glass-fronted dock.
Court will resume next Wednesday at 10.30am
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BBC Blog -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65602988
Posted at 11:2111:21
Letby asked next about baby D
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Nick Johnson KC now turns to asking Lucy Letby about the next baby, baby D, a girl, who the nurse is charged with murdering in June 2015.
When she gave evidence earlier in the trial, the mother of baby D told the court that Letby had been there when her daughter was being resuscitated, and was holding a phone to the ear of a doctor who was trying to save the baby.
Today, Letby says she has no memory of that.
Johnson asks if she disputes that it happened. She says she has no memory of it.
11:29
I can't comment on what other nurses saw, says Letby
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Nick Johnson KC now begins asking Lucy Letby about a rash which other nurses reported seeing on baby D.
Letby says: "I can't comment on what they did or didn't see."
Johnson asks: "Do you dispute it?"
Letby replies: "It’s the term 'dispute' I am a little unsure of. I can't comment on what anyone else says they saw."
Johnson then challenges her: "Well, you were there weren’t you?"
She replies: "I wasn’t there for the whole event, no."
Posted at 11:3311:33
Do you remember baby D, prosecutor asks
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Prosecutor Nick Johnson now asks Letby: "Do you still not remember baby D?"
She replies: "I didn’t recall her at the time of my police interview, no."
Johnson responds: "Do you remember her now?"
Letby says: "Yes."
11:42
Court shown text about 'absolutely distraught' parents
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
The court is shown a text message that Lucy Letby sent to another nurse, the morning after baby D died.
She wrote: "Parents absolutely distraught, dad screaming."
Nick Johnson KC challenges Letby: "When you said that you didn’t really remember baby D, that was a lie wasn’t it?"
She replies: "No, I didn’t have any great recollection of the events."
Johnson adds: "This was a dramatic and shocking incident wasn’t it?"
To which Letby responds: "Yes."
The prosecutor continues: "You remembered it very well when you spoke to the police didn’t you?"
"No," Letby says.
Johnson: "You’re enjoying all of this aren’t you Lucy Letby?" Letby: "No."
Posted at 11:5711:57
Prosecution resumes questioning about baby D
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
The court is resuming. The judge is in place, Lucy Letby is back in the witness box, and the jury are in. Nick Johnson KC is back on his feet, continuing to ask the nurse about baby D.
Johnson tells Letby that he's been told to keep his voice up, as the proceedings are being beamed to other courtrooms.
He asks her if she'll say if she finds it intimidating, as that's not intended. Very quietly, she replies: "Yes."
Letby is speaking very quietly. She's not looking at Johnson, who's standing at a right angle to her. Instead she's looking straight ahead of her, towards the jury.
12:03
'I can't stop crying,' Letby texted colleague
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Nick Johnson KC asks Lucy Letby if she'd say she has a good memory. She says yes.
The court then sees WhatsApp messages, which Letby exchanged with another nurse a few days after baby D died.
She says "I can't stop crying", and her colleague suggests that she sees a counsellor and takes time off.
Letby says back: "Work is always my priority."
12:09
Nurse remarked to Letby about sudden death of three babies
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
The court is now shown more WhatsApp messages, this time between Lucy Letby and a different colleague.
The other nurse remarks that it's odd that three babies had all died suddenly on the unit that month.
Nick Johnson KC asks Letby: "Were you worried people starting to put two and two together?"
She answers: "No."
Johnson says that more than three months after baby D died, Letby searched for the baby's father on Facebook.
He asks her: "You didn’t really forget baby D did you Lucy Letby?"
She replies: "I didn’t recall specific events about her."
12:19
Letby asked about night of baby D's death
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Lucy Letby says she believes that a delay in giving antibiotics contributed to the death of baby D.
NIck Johnson KC says: "They don’t guard against air embolus do they though...antibiotics?"
She replies: "No."
On the night of baby D's death, Letby was responsible for two other babies in nursery one (the intensive care room).
Another nurse, Caroline Oakley, was the designated nurse for baby D. Oakley has given evidence that she was on a break when baby D collapsed.
Asked if she accepts this, Letby says: "Yes."
Posted at 12:2612:26
'Did you take the opportunity to sabotage baby D?'
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Nick Johnson KC presses Letby about baby D, asking: "Were you looking after baby D while she [Caroline Oakley] was on a break?"
Letby responds: "No."
Johnson asks: "Who was?"
"I don't recall who was allocated to look after her," she says.
Johnson then asks: "Did you take the opportunity whilst Caroline Oakley was absent to sabotage baby D?" Letby replies: "No."
"When the alarms went off you were standing over her weren’t you?" the prosecutor says.
To which Letby replies: "I don’t recall."
"You had been in nursery one throughout, hadn’t you?" Johnson asks.
Letby responds: "I can't comment on that. I don't know for certain."
Posted at 12:3912:39
Letby denies falsifying paperwork
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
The court sees Lucy Letby's writing recorded on nursing records for a different baby, at the time that baby D collapsed.
Nick Johnson KC asks: "Were you really doing that as baby D was collapsing?"
Letby says: "I can’t give a definitive time."
Johnson continues: "Or have you tried to make the paperwork look like you were doing something else at the time of baby D’s collapse?"
Letby denies this, saying: "No, I’ve not falsified any paperwork."
Johnson asks for clarification: "Ever?"
She says "no", to which Johnson replies: "Well, we’ll come to that."
The prosecutor then says: "Baby D died because you injected her with air, didn't you?" Letby again says: "No."
Johnson adds: "Did you think that the paperwork wouldn’t tie you to baby D at the time of her collapse?"
Letby replies that she was looking after other babies too.
Posted at 12:4312:43
Court breaks for early lunch at Letby request
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Lucy Letby has just asked for a break.
She is told that she will be allowed a break, but before she has one she is asked about the matter of taking hand and footprints of a baby after death.
The nurse says that sometimes it's done before the baby dies.
Nick Johnson KC says: "I am going to suggest to you that that is untrue, that you are lying about it." She says: "I do not agree."
The court has now risen for an early lunch break and will reconvene at 1.45pm.
Posted at 14:5514:55
Jury told hearing will not continue for rest of today
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
We are now back in court, but Lucy Letby is in the dock, rather than being in the witness box. The jury has just come back in.
The judge, Mr Justice Goss, apologises to them for the delay. He tells them that for reasons with which they should not concern themselves, we are not going to continue with the hearing for the rest of today.
He tells the jury that they will not be needed back at court until it's next scheduled to sit on Wednesday next week.
He reminds them not to research the case themselves, away from the evidence they hear at court.
That is the end of proceedings for today. The trial will continue next Wednesday.
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Dan O'Donoghue BBC Tweets -
Dan O'Donoghue
We're now moving to Child D. The court has previously heard from the girl's mother, who said her daughter looked "lifeless" when she was born on 20 June and she had been concerned about her getting an infection, but antibiotics were not given.
The prosecution accepted the failure to give antibiotics was a "legitimate target of criticism", but Child D had been "responding well to treatment and was not expected to deteriorate".
However, on 21 and 22 June, she collapsed several times and despite resuscitation attempts, she was pronounced dead. Medical experts for the prosecution agreed her deterioration and an unusual rash were caused by an injection of air.
Mr Johnson is quoting evidence, that the jury has previously heard, on what nursing staff saw prior to Child D's collapse
One nurse said she saw the baby covered in an 'odd rash', another said it was a 'deep, red, brown...different form mottling'
Ms Letby says 'I did not see that'
Mr Johnson is currently taking the court back over WhatsApp messages Ms Letby exchanged with a colleague in June 2015 after the deaths of three children on the unit
Mr Johnson asks Ms Letby what she believed led to Child D's death. She says it could have been an issue of 'medical competence', as Child D did not receive relevant antibiotics at start of her life. Mr Johnson says that antibiotics 'don't guard against air embolism'
Mr Johnson has pulled up a blood gas chart for Child D, Ms Letby has accepted she filled in an entry for the baby girl shortly after 1am on 22 June 2015, but did not sign. She says this was an oversight and points out it had been done elsewhere on the form by other nurses
Mr Johnson puts it to Ms Letby that she was caring for the girl while her designated nurse was on a break - she does not accept this. Mr Johnson says while the nurse was on her break Ms Letby took the opportunity to 'sabotage' the baby girl
Mr Johnson is taking the court over various medication charts. He asks Ms Letby if she tried to make paperwork look like she was doing something else while Child D collapsed. She responded 'no I’ve not falsified any paperwork'. He asks 'ever'? 'no', she says
Mr Johnson says to Ms Letby Child D 'died because you injected with air didn’t you' She responds, 'no, I did not give her air'
Judge Mr Justice James Goss apologises for the delay in returning after lunch, he says we're 'not going to proceed any further this afternoon for reasons with which needn't concern yourselves' Court will next sitting on Wednesday