UK- Major incident declared in Southport after multiple stabbings, 29 July 2024

[Dotta]

The Telegraph is naming businessman Jonathan Hayes, 63 as one of the adults who rushed to the studio to try and disarm the suspect and was stabbed in the leg and is awaiting surgery. His wife describes how distraught he still is over not being able to prevent more carnage. A true hero, in my eyes, I am so grateful that we still have men that try and protect women and children.

In the same article they also report that the suspect is the child of Rwandan parents who originally settled presumably in Cardiff and who moved to the Southport area when the suspect was six years old.

Businessman who tried to disarm Southport attacker stabbed in leg

Jonathan Hayes who intervened after hearing screams from dance studio next door to office due to have surgery

www.telegraph.co.uk

I wonder if his teachers at school noticed any issues?
Any red flags in his behaviour?

 

[SpursGyal]

There are detailed rules for judges to follow when determining the minimum tariff for a life sentence for murder. How it works is that the judge choses a starting point and then adds time on or takes time off for aggravating or mitigating circumstances. The starting points are vastly different between a 17 and an 18 year old convicted of murder. For example -

"In cases where the offender brings a knife to the scene and uses it to commit murder the starting point is 25 years for an offender aged 18 or over and 12 years for an offender aged under 18."

Does anyone better versed in English law than me know if when somebody is convicted, if they are sentenced on the basis of their age when convicted or their age when they committed the offence?

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/FINAL-Murder-sentencing-leaflet-for-web1.pdf

It is their age when the crime was committed... So unfortunately if he turns 18 imminently, he will still be sentanced according to the guidelines for a 17 year old. However on his birthday, he could be named.

 

[Inthedetails]

The Telegraph is naming businessman Jonathan Hayes, 63 as one of the adults who rushed to the studio to try and disarm the suspect and was stabbed in the leg and is awaiting surgery. His wife describes how distraught he still is over not being able to prevent more carnage. A true hero, in my eyes, I am so grateful that we still have men that try and protect women and children.

In the same article they also report that the suspect is the child of Rwandan parents who originally settled presumably in Cardiff and who moved to the Southport area when the suspect was six years old.

Businessman who tried to disarm Southport attacker stabbed in leg

Jonathan Hayes who intervened after hearing screams from dance studio next door to office due to have surgery

www.telegraph.co.uk

For those of us not in U.K. who might not know (like me!), Rwanda joined the Commonwealth in 2009. In Rwanda, the majority of people are Christian with a very small Muslim (2%) population. I'm not sure about the population of Rwandans in UK but would assume it is similar?

Info from: Rwanda - Wikipedia.

 

[Yellowbelly]

The Telegraph is naming businessman Jonathan Hayes, 63 as one of the adults who rushed to the studio to try and disarm the suspect and was stabbed in the leg and is awaiting surgery. His wife describes how distraught he still is over not being able to prevent more carnage. A true hero, in my eyes, I am so grateful that we still have men that try and protect women and children.

In the same article they also report that the suspect is the child of Rwandan parents who originally settled presumably in Cardiff and who moved to the Southport area when the suspect was six years old.

Businessman who tried to disarm Southport attacker stabbed in leg

Jonathan Hayes who intervened after hearing screams from dance studio next door to office due to have surgery

www.telegraph.co.uk

I'm surprised the Telegraph has published that, as it potentially allows for 'jigsaw identification' of the accused. There can't be that many people of Rwandan descent living in Banks, Lancashire.

 

[RosalindaA]

I'm surprised the Telegraph has published that, as it potentially allows for 'jigsaw identification' of the accused. There can't be that many people of Rwandan descent living in Banks, Lancashire.

Yes I was surprised too, (although I've never heard of "jigsaw identification", interesting), it's quite a well-hidden article and behind a paywall, I was just looking to see about the brave man who tried to help.
But yes you're correct probably but then everyone local will know where he lives already and the family because of the house search in the area. I imagine the family will be getting some sort of police protection.

 

[Inthedetails]

Yes I was surprised too, (although I've never heard of "jigsaw identification", interesting), it's quite a well-hidden article and behind a paywall, I was just looking to see about the brave man who tried to help.
But yes you're correct probably but then everyone local will know where he lives already and the family because of the searches in the area. I imagine the family will be getting some sort of police protection.

I think the goal with not naming minors is to avoid any documentation that would haunt them as adults for deeds committed as a child/teen.

If someone puts a jigsaw together to figure out who the minor is, that's unfortunate but it's not official documentation, ykwim? I do hope nobody is cruel enough go after the family at their very worst moment in life. The perp is behind bars and is "safe" from the public getting to him.

jmo

 

[RosalindaA]

I must admit I feel like ringing up the police up there and reminding them to take blood and hair samples from this male to rule in/out drug use. IMO the failure to do this severely damaged the Crown's ability to pursue Valdo Calocane on murder charges and made his use of the mental health defense easier for him.

I hope the police here do a meticulous job and do all the necessary examinations. IMO you can see here as well a high degree of planning, travelling to a location and a specific intent to murder. Not typical of a psychotic episode MOO.

The authorities here have to do a better job than Nottingham for these poor little kids and their devastated families and Southport. Prayers for all of them and all who tried to help/and are looking after the injured and bereaved tonight.

 

[Inthedetails]

<modsnip - quoted post was off topic/removed>
I am still thinking the motivation was obsession with little girls and/or Taylor Swift and a desire for notoriety. Unless we learn differently, I think he was just like every other mass attacker against innocent strangers living their lives.

jmo

 

[Yellowbelly]

Yes I was surprised too, (although I've never heard of "jigsaw identification", interesting), it's quite a well-hidden article and behind a paywall, I was just looking to see about the brave man who tried to help.
But yes you're correct probably but then everyone local will know where he lives already and the family because of the house search in the area. I imagine the family will be getting some sort of police protection.

More on jigsaw identification here -

Law Column: Latest High Court guidance on jigsaw identification - Journalism News from HoldtheFrontPage

Our fortnightly look at legal issues facing journalists

www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk

 

[HollyHunter9]

This is really shocking, my heart goes out to everyone involved/touched by this. Why does evil always seek out the innocent and vulnerable?!

From what has been reported so far it sounds very premeditated. Only someone following the dance club on social media platforms would know of it's existence and the specific date & time of the class. It echoes the Dunblane massacre, but the fact that it was likely only young girls targeted is a key aspect to the motive IMO. I think the perp has chosen the dance club rather than try and enter a school and do this because it's probably easier to get into, less people around to confront/stop him and a smaller space to confine the victims. The fact this was carried out by someone as young as 17 is truely horrifying.

 

[Parker Knoll]

I am simply speechless with the utter horror of this.
These random attacks are getting more and more frequent … WTH is going on ?
I am leaning toward the TS notoriety aspect but I may be completely wrong and due to his age I don’t think he is a vengeful ex bf but maybe he had been rejected by someone connected to the dance group - who knows at this stage.
JMO

 

[sriraaacha]

This is crazy, seems like such an unusual attack to happen when it appears to be against kids. It's horrific that some were killed and many more people were injured. Like what is the motivation for that? I'm not surprised the guy is 17 though honestly, it's really common for teenagers and young adults to be the attackers nowadays. Hopefully there'll be some more info about this whole thing soon to understand what/why exactly this happened.

 

[Telltale]

This feels like a school shooting without a gun. Absolutely horrifying how much damage someone can do with just a knife, but I am profoundly grateful that's all he could get a hold of.

I have the feeling that both Police and mental health services will have had some interactions with him, and once his identity is out in the open, the game of accountability hot potato will begin.

 

[scapa]

This is really shocking, my heart goes out to everyone involved/touched by this. Why does evil always seek out the innocent and vulnerable?!

From what has been reported so far it sounds very premeditated. Only someone following the dance club on social media platforms would know of it's existence and the specific date & time of the class. It echoes the Dunblane massacre, but the fact that it was likely only young girls targeted is a key aspect to the motive IMO. I think the perp has chosen the dance club rather than try and enter a school and do this because it's probably easier to get into, less people around to confront/stop him and a smaller space to confine the victims. The fact this was carried out by someone as young as 17 is truely horrifying.

I also thought of Dunblane.

Vulnerable group in a presumably safe space where a "frenzied knife attack" is extremely unlikely to occur, difficult to consider as a threat for most and very difficult to protect against. Then a school and here a hols dance class -- my young niece just went to one, with a whole lot of Taylor, and loved it, not far away.

Horrific crime and disturbing precedent, since part of the cruelty of the act is how it may persist over time and place. How can your everyday community space in the UK protect against such an attack? How can parents and kids go to the next dance day, or gaming morning, or tween dance or indoor five-a-side footy for kids or anything, for a while at least, without Southport in their thoughts?

I have enormous respect for the victims, their families, teachers, responders and those who intervened here. Just awful in an already awful few weeks.

 

[MrJ]

Awful. The poor girls and their families. They are all going to have deep trauma. Girls and women deserve to feel safe anywhere at any time. Absolutely horrible.

The age of the alleged offender is shocking but honestly as a male myself I'm not surprised. Way too much content online that can expedite the 'pipeline' so to speak of guys watching misogynistic content, Andrew Tate springs to mind. We have no way of knowing at this stage that's his motive here. There's lots of problematic things that boys of his age has access to without his parents necessarily being aware of what he's looking up.

All JMO

 

[Nellie Nelson]

I am simply speechless with the utter horror of this.
These random attacks are getting more and more frequent … WTH is going on ?
I am leaning toward the TS notoriety aspect but I may be completely wrong and due to his age I don’t think he is a vengeful ex bf but maybe he had been rejected by someone connected to the dance group - who knows at this stage.
JMO

Another possibility [along with several other valid potential motives that were outlined earlier in this thread] is that he is a relative of someone who was attending the dance event. A furious disgruntled older sibling of a much younger and favoured sister, perhaps.

I live 15 minutes walk away from what happened. It's been a terrible day here.

 

[Snoopster]

Another possibility [along with several other valid potential motives that were outlined earlier in this thread] is that he is a relative of someone who was attending the dance event. A furious disgruntled older sibling of a much younger and favoured sister, perhaps.

I live 15 minutes walk away from what happened. It's been a terrible day here.

I'm so sorry Nellie that this happened so close to you...in your community. <hugs>

We'll continue to watch for more details about the suspect and any possible connection to the dance event.

 

[roche.analisa]

My theory on motive... it's a pregnancy resource center. Those are often used by people with unexpected pregnancies. Perhaps someone he got pregnant was using services at the center, and he didn't want her to continue the pregnancy. He was angry and scared that his parents would find out, or he didn't want to be on the hook for child support. It doesn't explain why target the girls, but maybe explains why target the location.

 

[VerityGumshoe]

I must admit I feel like ringing up the police up there and reminding them to take blood and hair samples from this male to rule in/out drug use. IMO the failure to do this severely damaged the Crown's ability to pursue Valdo Calocane on murder charges and made his use of the mental health defense easier for him.

I hope the police here do a meticulous job and do all the necessary examinations. IMO you can see here as well a high degree of planning, travelling to a location and a specific intent to murder. Not typical of a psychotic episode MOO.

The authorities here have to do a better job than Nottingham for these poor little kids and their devastated families and Southport. Prayers for all of them and all who tried to help/and are looking after the injured and bereaved tonight.

Reminding them to take blood hair samples? Really? I can assure you they do not need Reminding of how to do their job. The police and emergency services did an outstanding job yesterday.

 

[Sherlockhames]

Another possibility [along with several other valid potential motives that were outlined earlier in this thread] is that he is a relative of someone who was attending the dance event. A furious disgruntled older sibling of a much younger and favoured sister, perhaps.

I live 15 minutes walk away from what happened. It's been a terrible day here.

This was my immediate theory of motive. The location/event seemed so random otherwise so my view was that the perpetrator knew exactly where he was going and why (got a taxi straight there) and this didn’t look like any sort of massively advertised event. I reckon he is a relative of one of the children there and so this wasn’t random in that he turned up on the off chance something was happening. I think he targeted it specifically but only because he had specific knowledge it was happening due to a strong family/local connection.

(Even though he was 17 we will find out his name as soon as he turns 18, even though he will be tried as a 17 yr old).