Deceased/Not Found UK - Margaret Fleming, 19, Inverclyde, Scotland, 17 Dec 1999 *Guilty*

[Ironside]

They said, when the police / social services turned up at the door, that Margaret had just left that day and they didn't know where she'd gone. It then transpired that aside from the carers nobody else has actually since Margaret since a family do in 1999. Wonder if they have found her toothbrush, dirty clothes, bed sheets since she had been there just hours earlier? All that DNA that should have been readily available and able to clear this case up, erm, weeks ago.

What can the delay be?! :thinking:

Her dna not being there doesn't really prove anything though. It certainly wouldn't be enough for a charge. They need a body or a confession to get to the bottom of this.

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[CoverMeCagney]

Her dna not being there doesn't really prove anything though. It certainly wouldn't be enough for a charge. They need a body or a confession to get to the bottom of this.

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Overwhelming circumstantial evidence plus forensic evidence (or lack of) proving they lied should be enough to get started, I hope. I suspect the police already know full well that Margaret hadn't been there that day, otherwise they wouldn't have spent thousands of pounds and man hours on digging the garden up. There have been several convictions without a body, but I fear you're right and the "not proven" verdict would apply.

 

[Laughing]

Overwhelming circumstantial evidence plus forensic evidence (or lack of) proving they lied should be enough to get started, I hope. I suspect the police already know full well that Margaret hadn't been there that day, otherwise they wouldn't have spent thousands of pounds and man hours on digging the garden up. There have been several convictions without a body, but I fear you're right and the "not proven" verdict would apply.

The possible fraud charges (accepting Margaret's public aid checks) over the years might cause some squealing....

 

[MelmothTheLost]

The police were based in their garden during the attempted murder investigation.

Maybe that's what initially raised suspicions - them being in the garden for a week or so but not seeing someone who is recorded as living there. That and seeing the state of the property from outside might well have caused concern.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Ahh yes, I remember now! Thank you! I think it should not be hard to at least prove she has/hasnt been there.

If the house was so full of hoarded rubbish that a third person could not possibly be living there, that would be a pretty big clue. Physically learing the house would at least establish that Margaret wasn't rotting under 15 year old newspapers in her supposed room.

 

[Taskforce88]

Maybe that's what initially raised suspicions - them being in the garden for a week or so but not seeing someone who is recorded as living there. That and seeing the state of the property from outside might well have caused concern.

That’s what I initially thought

 

[flutterby]

Somehow missed this in the MSM and just read the whole thread. How peculiar.. has Margaret's mum said anything publicly yet? Are the carers in custody at the minute? and if not, where are they living?

 

[Bream]

Does no one else think the attempted murder right outside their house is a bit suspect? Two blokes, similar age to Margaret, have a spat in that location, could it be that she actually did/does have a private life they didn't know of? Maybe a love triangle gone wrong? Then she scarpers?

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[Taskforce88]

Does no one else think the attempted murder right outside their house is a bit suspect? Two blokes, similar age to Margaret, have a spat in that location, could it be that she actually did/does have a private life they didn't know of? Maybe a love triangle gone wrong? Then she scarpers?

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That was the angle I was looking at from the start. The media narrative however has me thinking that it may not be the case.

They are saying that as soon as the carers ask for more benefit money the DWP turn up but very conveniently Margaret has done a runner then it turns into a missing persons case.

From the start I thought the attempted murder was key to how this all came about a number of months later. I am also beginning to wonder why the police were based in Margaret's garden during the attempted murder investigation when, as I have recently found out, it occurred a little down the road.

 

[Taskforce88]

I also question the theory that Margaret could have run off: she hadn't been seen in public for 17 years, so that would mean she was house-bound and required constant supervision, If she was still alive by November 2016.

 

[easynic150]

That was the angle I was looking at from the start. The media narrative however has me thinking that it may not be the case.

They are saying that as soon as the carers ask for more benefit money the DWP turn up but very conveniently Margaret has done a runner then it turns into a missing persons case.

From the start I thought the attempted murder was key to how this all came about a number of months later. I am also beginning to wonder why the police were based in Margaret's garden during the attempted murder investigation when, as I have recently found out, it occurred a little down the road.

Where exactly did the attempted murder occur? Was it far?


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[Taskforce88]

Where exactly did the attempted murder occur? Was it far?


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It happened next to the main road, the A78, at the cottage nearest the village (North). The furthest cottage away from Margaret's.

There are three cottages side by side, and a fourth on the other side of the road.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.9023004,-4.8802284,414a,44.2y,1.29t/data=!3m1!1e3

 

[Taskforce88]

The police would not have dug up the garden unless they had good reason to, that has already been stated on here. The cost of that operation would have been quite a bit.

 

[Spyder84]

I think the attempted murder could be in some way connected - I would expect in a place like inverkip not a lot goes on so to have 2 incidents within months of each other is interesting, its also interesting the police were stationed at the house if the AM happened further down the road unless a witness or evidence pointed towards those having been involved ending up at the house or on its land - maybe thinking it was derelict due to its condition - My property and the surrounding land was once searched by police in relation to a murder that had happened half a mile away - the suspects were traced coming into the immediate area so the police did the whole csi thing

 

[Florrie]

Very odd case this, I am about to read through the thread to see what fellow WS have posted. It seems that nobody has seen this woman for 17 years beyond the carers.

 

[easynic150]

Why's she only "believed" to have learning disabilities?


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[Taskforce88]

Why's she only "believed" to have learning disabilities?


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I thought it had been confirmed by the family and college she attended that she did have. She certainly would not have been getting a disability allowance if it was not the case.

 

[Ironside]

Why's she only "believed" to have learning disabilities?


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It's just the way it's phrased. The police cannot find any proof she is alive they have to say it is believed she is this or that as they cannot confirm anything themselves.

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[Satchie]

It's just the way it's phrased. The police cannot find any proof she is alive they have to say it is believed she is this or that as they cannot confirm anything themselves.

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Exactly, they have to word their statements in a very ambiguous way, so as to be open to any possible evidence that might come up, and to avoid seeming to try to 'frame' certain people, in the absence of any concrete evidence. It is within the realm of possibility that Margaret put on an act to appear disabled, and after decades of staying indoors with her carers, got a new identity and skipped off to Spain.

Doesn't mean LE don't have a strong theory of what actually happened, which jumps out at me as a pretty obvious one.

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[Taskforce88]

Exactly, they have to word their statements in a very ambiguous way, so as to be open to any possible evidence that might come up, and to avoid seeming to try to 'frame' certain people, in the absence of any concrete evidence. It is within the realm of possibility that Margaret put on an act to appear disabled, and after decades of staying indoors with her carers, got a new identity and skipped off to Spain.

Doesn't mean LE don't have a strong theory of what actually happened, which jumps out at me as a pretty obvious one.

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Very difficult to fake learning difficulties here in the UK, not totally impossible as you say but very unlikely.

Someone who lived for 17 years indoors is not going to do well out and about on their own.