UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #10

[marynnu]

I have a suspicion - and it is ONLY MY OPINION - that she was possibly diagnosed with some kind of personality disorder long time ago (maybe in her teens) and was under a care of some therapist (but not sure about how long).

Her habit of writing notes (even a diary) about feelings and emotions is very telling.

Besides, it was written in her own text about parents who were very anxious when she left home town to study.

And we are talking about an ADULT daughter.

Well, that is my observation (not diagnosis of course).

JMO

I assume she left home to study at 18. I was beside myself with worry when my son left, I think that's normal for parents!

 

[katydid23]

Today's tweets:

12:56am

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is expected to continue today (Friday, February 10).
We will be bringing you updates throughout the day.

1:17am

This is the 15th week of the trial before a jury. The court did not sit on Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday this week due to juror absence, but resumed on Thursday.

1:30am

For what has happened in the Lucy Letby trial so far, here is our coverage from every day the case has been heard before a jury over the past 15 weeks: Countess nurse Lucy Letby: What has happened in trial so far

2:26am

The trial is expected to resume at about 10.30am - the courtroom at Manchester Crown Court is filling up.

The judge is informing members of the jury of a few upcoming days on which the trial will not be sitting.


They are February 17, March 13 and March 17.
In addition, on February 21, the trial will not be sitting before 1pm.

 

[katydid23]

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, February 10

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

2:34am

Medical expert Dr Sandie Bohin, who has given evidence before in the trial, has been recalled to give evidence in the case of Child I.

2:42am

Dr Bohin says the cause of the first of Child I's collapses were via air administered into the naso-gastric tube.
She said it would cause the abdomen to distend and "squash" the lungs, further compromising them.

Dr Bohin said, other than the distended abdomen, there were no other symptoms of NEC, a gastro-intestinal condition that Countess staff had considered as a diagnosis.

She tells the court there were no pathological reasons why the abdomen was distended, having seen an x-ray.

Dr Bohin said Countess staff did not always fill in the boxes on the chart whether a naso-gastric tube was removed or replaced. She adds the nursing staff tend to leave naso-gastric tubes in place for several days, as the procedure, while it takes "seconds", can be uncomfortable for the baby.

For the symptom of bruising on the baby girl in the second collapse, Dr Bohin rules out the cause of CPR, and "deduced" it was down to an air embolism.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I'm not sure about this at all. Might it not unduly influence the jury? For example, you could be someone who has lots of issues & problems but is perfectly innocent of the crime and vice versa, living an apparently exemplary life but underneath a vicious psychopath.

I agree that certain background issues will have been discussed in pre-trial hearings and the judge has ruled that they can’t be introduced because they will be unfairly prejudicial. But criminal cases usually contain some background information about the accused.

Looking at the Beverley Allitt case (because it also involved a nurse and children), there was quite a lot of evidence put before the court about her history. This was admittedly in the context of a prosecution expert saying that she had Munchhausen’s by proxy, but they still got quite a bit of information in front of the jury.

Maybe the answer is that there has been pre-trial decision that evidence can’t be introduced, but if it has, it would appear to be one of the widest orders I can recall seeing in a criminal case where the allegations are this serious.

 

[bbsaz]

I assume she left home to study at 18. I was beside myself with worry when my son left, I think that's normal for parents!

Plus they are older and shes an only child. I can imagine there is alot of pressure on her, knowing her parents are older, and it is only her

 

[katydid23]

I wanted to start a discussion about the fact that we have been given so little information about LL during the trial so far. It’s a bit long!

I have to say that I have a real concern with the lack of background information being presented, and how this will play with the jury. To be clear, I’m not talking about character evidence: I don’t need to know if she volunteered at an animal charity in her spare time, or always helped her elderly neighbour with her shopping (as random examples). And I’m not necessarily talking about evidence regarding her motive for committing these crimes, if guilty. Motive is obviously something that we all would like to know about because humans are curious, and we particularly want to know why someone has done a terrible thing. I accept that you don’t necessarily need evidence of motive in order to find someone guilty of murder. If I see an accused walk up to someone in the street and shoot them in the head, killing them, I would like to know why they did that, but I don’t need to know because there is no doubt that they did it. But motive can become more important where the evidence isn’t as direct as the example above, as it can, in my opinion, help a jury to feel more comfortable with delivering a guilty verdict.

What I am talking about in this case is more the absence of the background narrative: some (if not all) of the sequence of events leading to LL’s alleged crimes.

What we have been presented with so far is a woman who historically appeared to be fairly well liked and respected by her colleagues (noting however that there are the text messages after the alleged crimes began which indicate some difficulties with the professional relationships). A woman who had worked at the same hospital for four years without apparent incident or complaint. A woman who one day in 2015 went to work as normal, and within 20 minutes of starting her shift, allegedly murdered a poorly newborn baby for the first time.

I think it is fair to say that everyone on here has at least a passing interest in true crime . We all probably know a great deal about serial killers and patterns of behaviour and escalation of crimes.

If LL is guilty, she will be one of the most prolific serial killers this country has ever seen. We all know that a serial killer doesn’t just become a serial killer one day. Even if a person has always had the urge to kill, they don’t go from 0 to 60 overnight. There are, in nearly all cases, common patterns of behaviour. It starts out with lesser crimes, and then escalates to some form of assault, and then to murder or AM.

Just to be clear, I know that crimes of passion do just happen out of the blue without necessarily any buildup in levels of aggression. For example, a couple where one has committed infidelity has an argument and the wronged party stabs the cheater during the ensuing argument in a fit of rage . I don’t think LL’s alleged crimes could be characterised as crimes of passion.

The absence to date of some sort of background narrative, or even some evidence which could contextualise the alleged crimes in terms of triggers for the behaviour (such as a period of financial difficulties, a breakdown of a romantic relationship, illness in a family member, other difficulties with family relationships, personal medical problems) is a concern.

JMO etc

I don't know that the jurors would expect to hear a motive of any kind here. If these accusations are proven with sufficient evidence, I doubt there is any reasonable explanation for such a sick, bizarre set of crimes. It would just mean that the perpetrator was a very troubled, twisted being that operated under the radar for several years.

There is not always a rational explanation for these kinds of outrageous crimes.

JMO

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Also, every time Myers goes for Evans' credibility (eg did it in opening and yesterday), I think of the phrase "a bad workman blames his tools".

Feels like "s**t deflection". Myers hasnt got any credible alternative explanations for what happened, so he goes for underminding the expert witness instead. To me it screams of the defence having no actual defence imo

I’m not sure I agree with that.

I am at the point where I am now having serious reservations about Dr Evans’ credibility. I think Myers is landing some blows with regards to his argument that Dr Evans alters his opinions to fit the facts. The report yesterday regarding Dr Evans being criticised in the court of appeal said the same thing. It is interesting that Myers first attacked dr Evans on the grounds of altering his opinion several months ago, well before the defence even knew of the existence of the Court of Appeal judgement, and yet both Myers and the Court of Appeal are saying similar things.

I also think that Myers really damaged Dr Evans during questioning on baby c where Myers showed how dr Evans’ opinions on what happened and when seem to have changed quite suddenly a couple of months before trial.

But I’m not sure it ultimately matters (to me at least) whether or not Dr Evans is credible. As I have said before, I have been very impressed with dr Bohin. Although she has conceded a few points to the defence, in my opinion, that makes her more credible in that it demonstrates that she wants justice to be done in this case. I don’t think I would have a problem if I were on the jury with concluding that a murder or AM had taken place based only on dr Bohin’s evidence (subject, of course to anything the defence experts, if they are put on the stand, are able to offer in the way of a plausible alternative cause).

 

[katydid23]

2:43am

For the third collapse of Child I, Dr Bohin says her opinion, based on the x-ray, the collapse, the distended abdomen and the discoouration, was via air administered into the bowel and vein.


For the fourth collapse, in which Child I ultimately died, Dr Bohin says the cause of the collapse was an air embolus, via air administered via an IV line.

She said the "extremely unusual" level of crying by Child I was "very different" and the baby girl must have been in "severe pain", and that led her to believe the cause had been via an air embolus.

2:55am

Benjamin Myers KC, for Letby's defence, is now asking Dr Bohin questions.

He says Dr Bohin had peer-reviewed Dr Dewi Evans's reports. She replies she has given an independent report.

Dr Bohin adds she believes Mr Myers is asking if she has merely rubber-stamped Dr Evans's reports, which she says is "less than discourteous", saying she has disagreed with some of his findings and added her own evidence.

She says she has reviewed the case and come with her own opinions, and has not "backed up" Dr Evans's reports.

Mr Myers says Dr Bohin would not have come up with the conclusion of an air embolus without first reading Dr Evans's reports. Dr Bohin disagrees.

She says she has twice seen the symptoms of air embolous, in one case involving a baby. In one case it was during a complicated medical prodecure which had risks, and in which a child was seriously ill, and the child had a cardiac arrest as a result of the air embolus.

2:59 am

Mr Myers suggests Dr Bohin is adapting the air embolism cause to these collapses.

Dr Bohin: "That is not the case."

She tells the court she has looked for pathological causes to explain the collapses, and had not been able to find any.

Mr Myers says Dr Bohin is 'reaching' for air embolism as a 'catch-all' cause. Dr Bohin disagrees.

Dr Bohin is now describing how an air embolus can result in a mottled appearance on the skin and how it can affect the body.


Dr Bohin tells the court when something is "out of the ordinary", it will be noted, as was the case when Dr John Gibbs noted 'mottling' at the time of Child I's first collapse.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I don't know that the jurors would expect to hear a motive of any kind here. If these accusations are proven with sufficient evidence, I doubt there is any reasonable explanation for such a sick, bizarre set of crimes. It would just mean that the perpetrator was a very troubled, twisted being that operated under the radar for several years.

There is not always a rational explanation for these kinds of outrageous crimes.

JMO

I’m not talking about evidence of a motive. I’m talking about evidence of escalation in alleged criminal behaviour . A person may well have operated under the radar for many years, but once she was suspected of these crimes, and certainly after she was charged with them, I have no doubt that the hospital and the police will have done a very extensive check into her background to see if they can identify such behaviour in retrospect. It is the absence of anything of this nature which I find curious.

 

[katydid23]

3:04am

Mr Myers asks if air embolus presents very specific type of discolourations.

Dr Bohin replies the description of the discolourations can vary among medical staff in a cardiac arrest situation when the staff have other priorities and different notes to make.

3:06am

Mr Myers says Child I failed to put on weight as well as she should have.

Dr Bohin says Child I was very ill and did not put on weight during her time at Liverpool Women's Hospital. At the Countess of Chester Hospital, feeds were stopped due to complications and that meant she could not put on weight.

She says staff at the Countess stopped and started feeds and fortifier, and the reasons for the lack of weight gain were explicable.

 

[Dotta]

Also, every time Myers goes for Evans' credibility (eg did it in opening and yesterday), I think of the phrase "a bad workman blames his tools".

Feels like "s**t deflection". Myers hasnt got any credible alternative explanations for what happened, so he goes for underminding the expert witness instead. To me it screams of the defence having no actual defence imo

Re "workman and his tools"

In my country we say:
"A poor ballerina is bothered by the hem of her skirt" haha

Now I have this "vision" of some lawyers dancing to Czajkowski's "Swan lake".
Argh!!!

 

[katydid23]

I’m not talking about evidence of a motive. I’m talking about evidence of escalation in alleged criminal behaviour . A person may well have operated under the radar for many years, but once she was suspected of these crimes, and certainly after she was charged with them, I have no doubt that the hospital and the police will have done a very extensive check into her background to see if they can identify such behaviour in retrospect. It is the absence of anything of this nature which I find curious.

Here are the portions of your post I was replying to:

" I would like to know why they did that, but I don’t need to know because there is no doubt that they did it. But motive can become more important where the evidence isn’t as direct as the example above, as it can, in my opinion, help a jury to feel more comfortable with delivering a guilty verdict.

[snipped]
What I am talking about in this case is more the absence of the background narrative: some (if not all) of the sequence of events leading to LL’s alleged crimes.

[snipped]
"The absence to date of some sort of background narrative, or even some evidence which could contextualise the alleged crimes in terms of triggers for the behaviour (such as a period of financial difficulties, a breakdown of a romantic relationship, illness in a family member, other difficulties with family relationships, personal medical problems) is a concern."

Ok, so it did seem to me that you were saying a motive might be important to the jury.

And/or a trigger of some kind that could explain it somehow; like a bad break up or financial stress , toxic childhood, etc.

I am not sure we will ever find any of the above. She is apparently an only child, with older parents who are very devoted to her. I don't know if there are any other close family members that are going to speak about any childhood stories or concerns. JMO

Plenty of serial killers and/or predators have been able to hide under the radar for many years. Bundy, BTK, the Angel of Death, etc. They mimic normal behaviour when in the presence of family and co-workers so they can continue their brutal hobbies, undetected. JMO

 

[katydid23]

3:06am

Mr Myers says Child I failed to put on weight as well as she should have.

Dr Bohin says Child I was very ill and did not put on weight during her time at Liverpool Women's Hospital. At the Countess of Chester Hospital, feeds were stopped due to complications and that meant she could not put on weight.
She says staff at the Countess stopped and started feeds and fortifier, and the reasons for the lack of weight gain were explicable.

3:19am

Mr Myers refers to an event on August 23, 2015 which Dr Bohin had described in her report as "suspicious", when Child I had developed an abdominal distention. This incident was when Lucy Letby was not on duty.

Mr Myers also refers to nursing notes from September 5, 2015, in which Child I was a 'well baby' but 12 hours later, 'desaturations' had been recorded, 'requiring intermittent wafting O2 [oxygen]'. The desaturations continued and Child I's oxygen saturation levels dropped to 60%.

Dr Alison Ventress recorded a 'profound desaturation, down to 50% sats', and was 'quiet, does cry when disturbed, but not usual strong cry', and 'slightly mottled'.

At 11.15pm, Child I had 'another profound desaturation to 50%'. The following morning, at 3.26am, Child I had a 'profound desaturation on ventilator' and Dr Ventress was crash called.

Dr Bohin says this was a baby with an infection who was deteriorating. Child I, had a septic screen, was on antibiotics but continued to slowly decline and was ultimately transferred to Liverpool Women's Hospital.
Dr Bohin says these weren't "sudden, catastrophic collapses" but moderate deterioration in a baby which had an infection.

3:21am

Mr Myers says babies such as Child I can decline quite steeply.
Dr Bohin says babies don't suddenly collapse and have a cardiac arrest without warning. The subsequent events to September 5/6 were "very unusual".

Dr Bohin says Child I had chronic lung disease, something which could be diagnosed under the microscope, but it was not affecting her breathing at that time.

Mr Myers says such a condition could lead to an accelerated decline in a baby such as Child I.

 

[Dotta]

I assume she left home to study at 18. I was beside myself with worry when my son left, I think that's normal for parents!

Hmmm
Again my suspicious mind
But...
I have a feeling it goes much, much deeper than this.
It is "mentally unhealthy" to stay glued to parents or be "blackmailed" to stay with them while being an adult.

If you love somebody, set them free!

Everybody must follow his/her path following their dreams.
Parents give life but do not own their children.

JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

I don't know that the jurors would expect to hear a motive of any kind here. If these accusations are proven with sufficient evidence, I doubt there is any reasonable explanation for such a sick, bizarre set of crimes. It would just mean that the perpetrator was a very troubled, twisted being that operated under the radar for several years.

There is not always a rational explanation for these kinds of outrageous crimes.

JMO

It's usually after a serial killer has been convicted that we find out details about their past, after many interviews and tests with psychologists.

The findings are very useful. There is a lot of information about male serial killers but not enough when it comes to women.

ETA, Jmo

And yes, there is usually not any rational explanation for the crimes, at least from our point of view.

It only makes sense in the perpetrator's mind.

 

[Legal]

I’m not talking about evidence of a motive. I’m talking about evidence of escalation in alleged criminal behaviour . A person may well have operated under the radar for many years, but once she was suspected of these crimes, and certainly after she was charged with them, I have no doubt that the hospital and the police will have done a very extensive check into her background to see if they can identify such behaviour in retrospect. It is the absence of anything of this nature which I find curious.

I think I understand what you mean. In many trials, information about the defendant's character and behaviour is given in the opening statements to contextualise the offence and the defendant's demeanour at the time. I looked for an example of a recent case in the UK and found that of the murder of Megan Newborough. The following quotes are taken from her thread here on websleuths and do give a character sketch of the defendant at the time of the murder.

The court heard that McCullum had not been in an 'emotional or sexual' relationship for around eight years, with his last one 'hampered by difficulties with erectile dysfunction.'

During the prosecution’s opening speech, the jury was told “inappropriate” behaviour by McCullum was noticed by his workplace boss on August 5 and 6. Mr Cammegh said the killer, a former labourer and cleaner, had joined Ibstock’s laboratory around 18 months before.

On the day of the killing, the manager “became troubled by the defendant’s increasingly juvenile behaviour”, which included throwing clay around the room, the court heard

 

[Dotta]

Baby "I" was dying in agony of pain

"Dr Sandy Bohin told the trial at Manchester Crown Court the baby's crying was 'inconsolable'."

Lucy Letby: Baby in extreme pain as she died, trial hears

Lucy Letby made three attempts to kill a baby before succeeding on the fourth attempt, it is alleged.

www.bbc.com

 

[marynnu]

Hmmm
Again my suspicious mind
But...
I have a feeling it goes much, much deeper than this.
It is "mentally unhealthy" to stay glued to parents or be "blackmailed" to stay with them while being an adult.

If you love somebody, set them free!

Everybody must follow his/her path following their dreams.
Parents give life but do not own their children.

JMO

Fair enough. I never let on to my son about any of that till he was much older & we could laugh about my crying for a week when he left! He knows he could go to live anywhere in the world and we'd be fine even though we'd miss him enormously, because we're adults with our own lives and don't live through him.

 

[marynnu]

Baby "I" was dying in agony of pain

"Dr Sandy Bohin told the trial at Manchester Crown Court the baby's crying was 'inconsolable'."

Lucy Letby: Baby in extreme pain as she died, trial hears

Lucy Letby made three attempts to kill a baby before succeeding on the fourth attempt, it is alleged.

www.bbc.com

Imagine hearing thst as a parent, my God.

 

[ColourPurple]

I’m not talking about evidence of a motive. I’m talking about evidence of escalation in alleged criminal behaviour . A person may well have operated under the radar for many years, but once she was suspected of these crimes, and certainly after she was charged with them, I have no doubt that the hospital and the police will have done a very extensive check into her background to see if they can identify such behaviour in retrospect. It is the absence of anything of this nature which I find curious.

I think there's the additonal problem here that if guilty, and if there was an escalation of criminal behaviour, such as starting off deliberately harming babies in lesser ways, then she would presumably have done so whilst alone with the babies, without any witnesses and if there was no major effect on the babies health it could easily have gone unnoticed. What kind of evidence would you expect to see?