UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #12

[JosieJo]

Question for the medicals:

Re. The texting on shift.

Is there going to be a suggestion from the prosecution that the quantity of texting is an issue?

What's the general consensus on mobile phones on the ward, usually?

Is it something she'd have to sneak off to do? Or would she be texting openly in the nursery? Or only on a break?

Jmo
Many nurses would have their phones in their pockets.
It wouldn't be usual to use your phone in the vicinity of patients..but at the nurses station or in the treatment rooms etc it would be common

For me though there does seem above average messaging ...and an awful lot around work ...but I suppose living alone away from hometown its possible work might consume her life.

Regarding the "nice babies and parents" comment...I really do not see that as relevant...often a nurse might say a patient or their relatives are lovely...and some can be horrible... it doesn't mean they get less care ...its just life

 

[Marantz4250b]

3:07pm

Letby messages her colleague at 5.10am: 'Awake already'
Her colleague replies: "I wouldn't come in!"
Letby: "Oh...why"
The colleague replies: "5 admissions, 1 vent"
LL: "OMG"
Colleague: "Baby [N] screened, looks like s**t"

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, March 2

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Interesting that people have referred to LL as being "unprofessional", and suchlike, when she'd referred to babies appearing "rubbish". It would appear from this that LL is one of the more restrained ones as regards her language.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I know it almost certainly means nothing, but hypothyroidism since she was 11 and has been having blips for the last 12 months? How interesting. To me, anyway!

I wonder why they are actually introducing these messages? They seem to have very little, if anything, to do with the allegations against her. How are these evidence of, or relevant to, anything the prosecution is trying to show?

I really fail to see the benefit to them.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Interesting that people have referred to LL as being "unprofessional", and suchlike, when she'd referred to babies appearing "rubbish". It would appear from this that LL is one of the more restrained ones as regards her language.

Not all have but I think those that did have applied their own interpretation to her usage of the word. With the right delivery it could be endearing, the frequency of her use of that word imply it’s used in a personally orientated way and thus fits with its popular usage as an endearing term. your right though she seems quite a restrained individual and uses language well within bounds. I bet nurses due to the nature of the job can often be quite obtuse in personal coms much the same as police often have black humour. I bet matron swears like a sailor.

tbh the quote from that nurse is quite obtuse, if it was more endearing there would be an e on the end. Jmo though.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I wonder why they are actually introducing these messages? They seem to have very little, if anything, to do with the allegations against her. How are these evidence of, or relevant to, anything the prosecution is trying to show?

I really fail to see the benefit to them.

Tbh I think it has been said before but it does give the jurors an insight into what ll is like before, during and after what could be seen as significant events. im Still a bit shocked she seems so unaware of what could be going on around her, like totally oblivious. Almost like she doesn’t have her back up at all.

 

[Marantz4250b]

..


how another nurse was “faffing”, Lucy #Letby says “I like things to be tidy and calm - or as much as possible.”


Hmmn I'd say this could be why the texts have been included. Comes across like she could be trying to impress the doctor like "Oh did you see the other nurse was faffing about but I was all calm"

Is it also confirming that the doctor her colleague said LL was flirting with, just happened to be the doctor on duty and called to help with the resus of Baby N when he desat-ed in LL's presence?

Really important texts if this is the case IMHO

How do they possibly relate to the accusations that she murdered and attempted to murder lots of a babies, though? Sorry but I'm just not seeing it in these messages. To me they just seem like random boring messages of random everyday banter.

So, she's perhaps trying to impress a doctor - isn't the first nurse to do that and certainly won't be the last. Where are they going as regards these messages because I just don't see the relevance?

 

[Marantz4250b]

- the thyroid condition causing LL tremors for the last year. Not something you’d want to have if you are a medical professional (or indeed want in the medical professional treating you if you were a patient). The immediate thing that sprung to my mind when I read about her tremors was that I wonder if the jury will infer from that that LL might have knocked a baby’s medical equipment because her hands were trembling, thus causing some of the alleged injuries in some cases. Obviously that has no bearing on the alleged insulin cases and air embolism cases, but in relation to dislodging the breathing tube or knocking a tube and causing trauma to the throat , it seems to me to be a possible inference. JMO as always.

And I thought the same. That, though, surely undermines any case for intentional wrongdoing? The prosecution in introducing these messages seem to be undermining their own case.

 

[Sundial]

Interesting that people have referred to LL as being "unprofessional", and suchlike, when she'd referred to babies appearing "rubbish". It would appear from this that LL is one of the more restrained ones as regards her language.

I have to disagree with this. Her choice of language does not indicate her as being “one of the restrained ones” especially that she was told more than once by her superior NOT to keep going into the family room of grieving parents. That is IMO just one example of her unprofessional behaviour and not very dignifying or compassionate for those precious moments with their child.

There is also the discussion of a mother in “tiny lacy outfits hardly covering anything” (or words to those affects given in evidence). I feel her language choice is irrelevant, just because the choice of words appears somewhat reserved; doesn’t mean she isn’t unprofessional. Whether guilty or not, IMO some of her actions and comments are questionable as a nurse (despite the language she uses) and edge quite close (if not directly in) to misconduct under the principles of (uk) nursing care.

Respect is a key word in these principles and I feel from the evidence given so far; there have been numerous times she has not always respected the families in her care which is in conflict with (uk) NMC requirements to practice and also RCN duty of care IMHO

Duty of care | Advice guides | Royal College of Nursing

An advice guide for nursing staff on the duty of care covering definitions, emergency situations and conflict with employer's instructions.

www.rcn.org.uk

 

[Parker Knoll]

The messages atm are quite strange but they will definitely have significance in the trial - we just don’t know what yet.
They will have sifted through literally thousands to whittle down what will go in the court bundle so they are certainly not “ filler “
My personal take on the LL / Doctor thing is she IMHO definitely wanted to be noticed by him evidenced by the facebook messages she seemed to send to him almost looking for affirmation from him that she was some super nurse swooping in to save the day highly knowledgeable discussing the babies in her care and their prognosis.
She could second guess stuff as she was the one ALLEGEDLY setting these poor little mites up.
As he only seemed to come into the frame for the last couple of months she was there she may of spoken on text / had a relationship with him later and as he is now a witness for the prosecution that could go some way to explain the histrionics a couple of weeks ago. Maybe Letby thinks he sold her down the river as we don’t know fully what he’s told the police.
Just my ramblings of course.

 

[Sundial]

How do they possibly relate to the accusations that she murdered and attempted to murder lots of a babies, though? Sorry but I'm just not seeing it in these messages. To me they just seem like random boring messages of random everyday banter.

So, she's perhaps trying to impress a doctor - isn't the first nurse to do that and certainly won't be the last. Where are they going as regards these messages because I just don't see the relevance?

Unless we hear further from this doctor in due course

The messages atm are quite strange but they will definitely have significance in the trial - we just don’t know what yet.
They will have sifted through literally thousands to whittle down what will go in the court bundle so they are certainly not “ filler “
My personal take on the LL / Doctor thing is she IMHO definitely wanted to be noticed by him evidenced by the facebook messages she seemed to send to him almost looking for affirmation from him that she was some super nurse swooping in to save the day highly knowledgeable discussing the babies in her care and their prognosis.
She could second guess stuff as she was the one ALLEGEDLY setting these poor little mites up.
As he only seemed to come into the frame for the last couple of months she was there she may of spoken on text / had a relationship with him later and as he is now a witness for the prosecution that could go some way to explain the histrionics a couple of weeks ago. Maybe Letby thinks he sold her down the river as we don’t know fully what he’s told the police.
Just my ramblings of course.

What I find astounding; is she messaged this same doctor about baby N (I believe ?) results but not in medical records. From the previous posters POV, I feel it is relevant to point out this is actually extremely unprofessional as a nurse (dispute however she chose to word it on social media to him) not to record it on the patients medical file.

We also don’t necessarily know how others are using their choice of words outside of what we’ve heard so far. It’s irrelevant because they aren’t the ones on trial. But the very nature of what she is doing, despite whatever words she chooses, is very unprofessional IMHO

 

[Dotta]

The texts introduced her health problems.

Is it some prelude to later medical testimonies concerning her?

JMO

 

[Sundial]

Not all have but I think those that did have applied their own interpretation to her usage of the word. With the right delivery it could be endearing, the frequency of her use of that word imply it’s used in a personally orientated way and thus fits with its popular usage as an endearing term. your right though she seems quite a restrained individual and uses language well within bounds. I bet nurses due to the nature of the job can often be quite obtuse in personal coms much the same as police often have black humour. I bet matron swears like a sailor.

tbh the quote from that nurse is quite obtuse, if it was more endearing there would be an e on the end. Jmo though.

I must ask how she appears “restrained” by her use of language, yet couldn’t restrain herself if her superior had to tell her more than once not to keep going back into the family room of grieving parents.

Even one of the parents (I can’t recall which) had to ask her to leave for some privacy. Language choices tell us a tiny piece to the puzzle, but if I knew a nurse caring for my baby had messaged a doctor/love interest the results of my babies medical information yet didn’t record it on their medical file; I wouldn’t care “what” language she had chosen; I would want to know *why* she omitted that from medical and legal obligations she is expected to uphold. JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

I must ask how she appears “restrained” by her use of language, yet couldn’t restrain herself if her superior had to tell her more than once not to keep going back into the family room of grieving parents.

Even one of the parents (I can’t recall which) had to ask her to leave for some privacy. Language choices tell us a tiny piece to the puzzle, but if I knew a nurse caring for my baby had messaged a doctor/love interest the results of my babies medical information yet didn’t record it on their medical file; I wouldn’t care “what” language she had chosen; I would want to know *why* she omitted that from medical and legal obligations she is expected to uphold. JMO

”appears” is the most potentially significant word here. I have always said it doesn’t necessarily mean much except it being a baseline to work from and thus any deviation from a telling melody.

how do you know her going into that room wasn’t meant by her as a sign of reassurance to the parents? Rather than some gloating inhalation of the moments misery?

the parents that asked her to leave did so without saying anything and she actually responded to non verbal cues appropriately according to testimony, if innocent a mistake nobody should be unwilling to forgive. IMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

An example of restraint from ll is her response to the bitchy comments which doesn’t even include indignation but does include a request for emotional reciprocity along with her comment I think word for word, “people should respect that”.

 

[ColourPurple]

So Baby N -"He said the baby's condition deteriorated twice more, once when he and his partner left to get food, and again when they left to seek medical advice for his partner, who was feeling unwell.


The baby deteriorating just after the parents had left them. How similar is that to what Baby H's mother said :

Jurors heard that Child H stabilised throughout the day as her parents stayed with her before they eventually left to get some sleep in the parents' room.
Child H's mother said they had just gone to bed when they heard a knock on the door and staff told them they were needed back in the unit because their daughter was not responding.


And Baby A&B's mother:

The new parents left briefly to get some food, and were waiting in a side room when a nurse from Nursery 1 burst in and said: 'You need to come now!'

And Baby I's mother in the dailymail podcast

The hospital gave us a room to sleep in but every time we left and started to fall asleep we were woken up by banging on the door telling us to come quickly. It wasn’t once, it was several times. Our daughter seemed to deteriorate when we left her alone and predominantly at night.”

Four sets of parents all commenting that their babies collapsed just after they'd left them. Any others?

Links:

Lucy Letby murder trial: Baby 'improved as soon as she moved to different hospital'

A baby allegedly attacked by nurse Lucy Letby "came on in leaps and bounds" as soon as she was treated at a different hospital, her parents have said.

www.shropshirestar.com

Parents of Lucy Letby 'victim' reveal moment their newborn baby died

Baby A, the boy, and Baby B were born within a minute of each other at the Countess of Chester Hospital, Cheshire, on June 7, 2015, and Letby is accused of poisoning them. Baby B survived.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The Trial of Lucy Letby, Episode 14: Baby I, “Our daughter could go from perfectly fine to nearly dying in seconds."

www.mailplus.co.uk

Baby G

"Baby G’s mum left the nursery while this [cannulation] was going on. Baby G’s designated nurse also went out because she was looking after another baby elsewhere, and the doctors left the room once the cannula had been inserted. Moments later, LL who was looking after at least 2 other babies in the same room was calling for help, after baby G collapsed again."

The Trial of Lucy Letby, Episode 9: Baby G, Part 2: “She was a pale colour. She wasn’t moving. The monitor wasn’t on.”.

So babies B,G,H,I and N. That's FIVE cases where the baby collapsed just after the parents had left them.

And then on top of that we have the cases where a baby collapsed just after their designated nurse left them to go on a break or perform another task. I'll start the ball rolling with two:

Baby K - Designated nurse leaves the ward to update the parents at 3.47am. At 3.50am the baby collapses.

Swipe data is recorded showing Child K's designated nurse Joanne Williams leaving nursery room 1 at 3.47am to go to the labour ward.
The event is recorded as happening by Dr Jayaram and Dr James Smith at 3.50am - "sudden deterioration" - sats dropping to 40%, Child K bagged via ET tube with Neopuff.

Baby N- Designated nurse leaves to go on their break at 1.00am . At 1.05am the baby collapses.

The designated nurse said Child N was stable and left for a break at about 1am. ...At 1.05am, Child N's oxygen saturation levels fell from 99% to 40%.




links:

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, February 27

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.northwaleschronicle.co.uk

Recap: Prosecution continues opening of Lucy Letby trial

The prosecution continues its opening in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of multiple baby murders at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[ColourPurple]

..


how another nurse was “faffing”, Lucy #Letby says “I like things to be tidy and calm - or as much as possible.”


Hmmn I'd say this could be why the texts have been included. Comes across like she could be trying to impress the doctor like "Oh did you see the other nurse was faffing about but I was all calm"

Is it also confirming that the doctor her colleague said LL was flirting with, just happened to be the doctor on duty and called to help with the resus of Baby N when he desat-ed in LL's presence?

Really important texts if this is the case IMHO

How do they possibly relate to the accusations that she murdered and attempted to murder lots of a babies, though? Sorry but I'm just not seeing it in these messages. To me they just seem like random boring messages of random everyday banter.

So, she's perhaps trying to impress a doctor - isn't the first nurse to do that and certainly won't be the last. Where are they going as regards these messages because I just don't see the relevance?

You don't see the potential relevance. I do. Nothing more I can add to that really.

 

[marynnu]

Interesting that people have referred to LL as being "unprofessional", and suchlike, when she'd referred to babies appearing "rubbish". It would appear from this that LL is one of the more restrained ones as regards her language.

This is normal nurse speak to me! I'm not sure if this expression is used if you're none-British? So just in case! To look or feel 'rubbish' or 's**t' just indicates that you're ill.

 

[Sundial]

”appears” is the most potentially significant word here. I have always said it doesn’t necessarily mean much except it being a baseline to work from and thus any deviation from a telling melody.

how do you know her going into that room wasn’t meant by her as a sign of reassurance to the parents? Rather than some gloating inhalation of the moments misery?

the parents that asked her to leave did so without saying anything and she actually responded to non verbal cues appropriately according to testimony, if innocent a mistake nobody should be unwilling to forgive. IMO

But that wasn’t what you originally suggested; you said she “seemed” quite a restrained individual. We just don’t know that and it doesn’t excuse the fact her superior had to reiterate numerous times to stop going into the family room. Going against your superior like this is quite tactless when parents are grieving and it doesn’t really imply a “restrained” person imo.

 

[Sundial]

An example of restraint from ll is her response to the bitchy comments which doesn’t even include indignation but does include a request for emotional reciprocity along with her comment I think word for word, “people should respect that”.

“People should respect that” again; interesting because she isn’t actually reciprocating this by respecting her superior or the emotional needs of the parents. It’s a basic requirement of what a nurse is expected to do.
Jmo

 

[bbsaz]

Tbh I think it has been said before but it does give the jurors an insight into what ll is like before, during and after what could be seen as significant events. im Still a bit shocked she seems so unaware of what could be going on around her, like totally oblivious. Almost like she doesn’t have her back

Doesnt have her back up....OR doesnt care

I find it odd that she spends so much time texting about work, babies stats etc... yet not once has she shown any curiosity about all these additional and unexpected collapsed and deaths

JMO