UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #12

[Tortoise]

For the first attempted murder charge instance on June 2nd/3rd, it's a shame that no one there remembers it, and the parents clearly weren't told about it. The defence are clearly going to use this to say that there no serious event took place.

This isn't reflected in the testimony heard.

The other nurses on duty (Taylor, Ellis, and Thomas) gave statements saying they don't recall being involved. Christopher Booth, the designated nurse, said it happened while he was on his meal break.

The registrar called to the collapse (Dr Jennifer Loughnane) gave evidence about it in court yesterday, including baby N's screaming.

 

[Tortoise]

But she's referencing how she may have been off with him during the resus when the other nurse was "faffing" so he must have been there at the 7.15 resus.
She started her shift/got to the hospital at 7.10am

yes, replying to the time of the Facebook messaging, whether he would have been on Facebook while he was on shift.

She was definitely on shift during the messaging.

 

[katydid23]

Dan O'Donoghue

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Nursery nurse Jennifer Jones-Key is now in the witness box. She was on a night shift on 14 June 2016 and was Child N's designated nurse along with Neonatal assistant Lisa Walker. They took over Child N's care from Ms Letby, she tells the court there was no concerns on handover


Ms Jones-Key's nursing notes, written retrospectively at 5:51am on 15 June, state that 'just after 1am baby looked very pale mottled and veiny'

She recalls that over that morning Child N 'started to have a few desaturations' and was placed on full monitoring

Ms Jones-Key tells the court that Child N 'settled down' but 'from 7am onwards he was having more desaturations'


The nurse says shortly after 7am, Ms Letby came in to 'say hello'. At that point, she said 'I think the monitor went off, so Lucy went over to see. He went quite pale, I think he’d stopped breathing, I got the neopuff'



She's asked by the prosecutor where Ms Letby was in the room, she doesn't remember. She is asked again why Ms Letby was in the room - 'just to say hello, because we were friends', she says



She doesn't remember any conversation between them. She says the decision was taken to provide respiratory support to Child N . A nursing note from that morning states: 'noted to be mottled all over body and blue in colour and cold to touch'

 

[Tortoise]

Oh, I thought she was on the day shift at this time. I will have to go look---

I think she was maybe on day shifts ? :

In a statement, the child's father said he received a phone call from Letby on the day the baby was due to be discharged, June 15, having spent 13 days on the neonatal unit.

'Lucy said (Child N) had been a bit unwell in the night but she said he was OK now,' the statement read.

He said Letby did not give him any more information and he did not get the impression the baby was still unwell, but 10 minutes later his partner rang after speaking to the hospital and said they needed to go in.



In a statement, the baby's mother said: 'Lucy was our main point of contact through the day because she was tending to (Child N) in between consultants being with him.

'We had (Child N) baptised during the day and that was recommended to us by Lucy.'


When they got there, the baby, who has blood clotting condition haemophilia, was in intensive care and Letby was by his bed, he said.

'Lucy just said, Hi, he's been a bit unwell in the night'. I felt shocked looking at him,' he said.

He described the infant's skin as a bluish colour and said he could see blood around his lips. He added that there was 'lots of blood spattered on him…a dark reddy-brown colour'.

He said the baby's condition deteriorated twice more, once when he and his partner left to get food, and again when they left to seek medical advice for his partner, who was feeling unwell.

He said Letby approached them as they were waiting for the baby to be transferred to Merseyside's Alder Hey Children's Hospital, where he made a full recovery.

Lucy Letby 'hugged mother after trying to kill her baby three times'

Lucy Letby is accused of trying to kill Child N three times while working as a neonatal nurse at the Countess of Chester Hospital. She denies all charges against her.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Maybe she stayed way past her 'end of shift'? But she seemed to be there much of the day according to the parents.

she was on day shift that day.

you were querying whether it was weird for a doctor on shift to be checking his Facebook messages, so I replied that it's not clear whether he was still on shift at 11am.

 

[JosieJo]

(BBM)
The tone of this just feels so familiar to previous messages about how she will be ok....

She will soldier on. What a hero...
IMO

Guilty or not ...I do feel a lot of her messages have been "attention" seeking..not just the Dr ...and today's messages on twitter are even more so

 

[Sweeper2000]

Has it been covered in testimony how babies collapse and how the ones in the charges are thought to be unusual?
I think I read there is generally preceding signs rather than a nosedive deterioration but not sure.

just that this case baby n involves collapses that aren’t thought to be unusual and then collapses thought to be suspicious.

 

[katydid23]

The nurse says shortly after 7am, Ms Letby came in to 'say hello'. At that point, she said 'I think the monitor went off, so Lucy went over to see. He went quite pale, I think he’d stopped breathing, I got the neopuff'

She's asked by the prosecutor where Ms Letby was in the room, she doesn't remember. She is asked again why Ms Letby was in the room - 'just to say hello, because we were friends', she says

She doesn't remember any conversation between them. She says the decision was taken to provide respiratory support to Child N . A nursing note from that morning states: 'noted to be mottled all over body and blue in colour and cold to touch'





Dan O'Donoghue


Ben Myers KC, defending, is now questioning the nurse. He asks if Ms Letby was 'quite a good friend', 'Yes' she responds. He asks, in her opinion, if Ms Letby was a 'capable and hard working nurse', she agrees


Mr Myers asks, in her knowledge, whether Ms Letby only gave 'the highest level of care' to the babies she cared for, she responds 'yes definitely’


Mr Myers is referring back to Child N's desaturation that morning, he says essentially Ms Letby said hello to Ms Jones-Key then responded when the baby boy's monitor went off - Ms Jones-Key agrees

 

[katydid23]

Kind of interesting that Meyers chose to highlight this info today:


Ben Myers KC, defending, is now questioning the nurse. He asks if Ms Letby was 'quite a good friend', 'Yes' she responds. He asks, in her opinion, if Ms Letby was a 'capable and hard working nurse', she agrees


Mr Myers asks, in her knowledge, whether Ms Letby only gave 'the highest level of care' to the babies she cared for, she responds 'yes definitely’


That^^^ might go against his defense narrative that many of the babies collapsed because of sub optimal care.

 

[LorriB]

Kind of interesting that Meyers chose to highlight this info today:


Ben Myers KC, defending, is now questioning the nurse. He asks if Ms Letby was 'quite a good friend', 'Yes' she responds. He asks, in her opinion, if Ms Letby was a 'capable and hard working nurse', she agrees


Mr Myers asks, in her knowledge, whether Ms Letby only gave 'the highest level of care' to the babies she cared for, she responds 'yes definitely’


That^^^ might go against his defense narrative that many of the babies collapsed because of sub optimal care.

Yep bit of an own goal for the prosecution.

Gosh you guys should see some of the texts me and my friends send one another. If you don't have the full contect you can come to all sorts of opinions. I'm putting zero wait on the banter texts atm unless they become clearly part of the prosecution. They all sound entirely normal to me.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Kind of interesting that Meyers chose to highlight this info today:


Ben Myers KC, defending, is now questioning the nurse. He asks if Ms Letby was 'quite a good friend', 'Yes' she responds. He asks, in her opinion, if Ms Letby was a 'capable and hard working nurse', she agrees


Mr Myers asks, in her knowledge, whether Ms Letby only gave 'the highest level of care' to the babies she cared for, she responds 'yes definitely’


That^^^ might go against his defense narrative that many of the babies collapsed because of sub optimal care.

Aside from the accusations I don’t think there are any examples of ll allegedly not delivering quality care or failing in the standards of her job. I think we have some examples of poor note taking and one example of not telling anyone about aspirated blood but did on fb messenger which is weird. Maybe one other thing as well but not sure.

he’s highlighting substandard care at the unit and if he can make out ll is a top quality nurse it fits with his narrative about the unit not being able to cope without her. also in line with what he said about ll statistically speaking being more likely to be around any collapses due to being more qualified. Also fits with his narrative about her being present and being blamed for collapses not necessarily caused by her as that babies collapse might haVe been caused by something preceding her arrival.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Interesting testimony about this 7.15 collapse much like baby m IMO. She doesn’t really have the opportunity to cause the collapse and the two nurses present have more or less testified to that effect. Baby n the nurse says ll wasn’t anywhere near the baby, baby m the dn or mg was in the same room and again hasnt Said that ll was anywhere near the baby in the necessary timeframe.

 

[Jazmania]

This isn't reflected in the testimony heard.

The other nurses on duty (Taylor, Ellis, and Thomas) gave statements saying they don't recall being involved. Christopher Booth, the designated nurse, said it happened while he was on his meal break.

The registrar called to the collapse (Dr Jennifer Loughnane) gave evidence about it in court yesterday, including baby N's screaming.

I think Dr Loughnane said that she didn't have an independent recollection of the shift though, and she wasn't there for the desaturation itself. When she arrived the baby was pink, albeit screaming. So in comparison to other sudden collapses in the trial, there isn't much witnesses recollection (or so far).

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’m interested to know if the beds in the room are numbered?
I don’t think they are as I can’t remember anything to suggest it nor can I find anything in articles to state it. I’m just wondering about baby m as according to the dn testimony she turned her head which suggests the baby being in a bed behind her. Otherwise she would have to stand and look over the screen to the left of the computers monitor to see the beds on the other side of the room. The first scenario would involve the ll administering the AE behind mg back but otherwise she is blocked by the screen and mg wouldn’t even see her.

 

[Jazmania]

I think the outline of this second attempted murder charge is also problematic for the prosecution. Unlike other collapses, this one doesn't seem to have been sudden and the baby seems to have been deteriorating all night - when LL wasn't there.
Also while I can see that Lucy could inject air very quickly and innocuously while a colleagues back is turned, for this attempted murder charge they are saying she caused a traumatic injury to the baby's throat. Are they seriously suggesting that she did this while her colleague was in the same room with her back turned 5 minutes after she started her shift? Am I missing something?

 

[Jazmania]

I think the outline of this second attempted murder charge is also problematic for the prosecution. Unlike other collapses, this one doesn't seem to have been sudden and the baby seems to have been deteriorating all night - when LL wasn't there.
Also while I can see that Lucy could inject air very quickly and innocuously while a colleagues back is turned, for this attempted murder charge they are saying she caused a traumatic injury to the baby's throat. Are they seriously suggesting that she did this while her colleague was in the same room with her back turned 5 minutes after she started her shift? Am I missing something?

Or could this injury have been inflicted the day before when LL was the designated nurse for N? But the response delayed?

 

[bbsaz]

Aside from the accusations I don’t think there are any examples of ll allegedly not delivering quality care or failing in the standards of her job. I think we have some examples of poor note taking and one example of not telling anyone about aspirated blood but did on fb messenger which is weird. Maybe one other thing as well but not sure.

he’s highlighting substandard care at the unit and if he can make out ll is a top quality nurse it fits with his narrative about the unit not being able to cope without her. also in line with what he said about ll statistically speaking being more likely to be around any collapses due to being more qualified. Also fits with his narrative about her being present and being blamed for collapses not necessarily caused by her as that babies collapse might haVe been caused by something preceding her arrival.

BBM
But it copes better without her? When she swaps to days, the night collapses reduce. When she goes on holiday, they stop/reduce also

 

[Tortoise]

I think Dr Loughnane said that she didn't have an independent recollection of the shift though, and she wasn't there for the desaturation itself. When she arrived the baby was pink, albeit screaming. So in comparison to other sudden collapses in the trial, there isn't much witnesses recollection (or so far).

I agree there is no witness independent memory of it. I was responding to you saying the defence are clearly going to use the nurses' lack of memory of it to say that no serious event took place.

Christopher Booth the designated nurse noted: 'One episode whilst I was on my break, whereby infant was crying++ and not settling. He became dusky in colour, desaturating to 40s. Responded to facial oxygen within 1-2 minutes, crying [subsided] after 30 minutes'. The note adds Child N's colour returned to pink perfusion.

Nurse Booth added, up to 2.04am: 'No further episodes observed. Oxygen saturations have been consistently mid 90s-100%...in view of earlier episode, infant remains nil by mouth...'.

Dr Loughnane testified :

At 1.10am, Dr Loughnane is informed about Child having a desaturation. She does not recall who did so.
The note at the time records: Child N 'got upset, looked mottled, dusky, sats 40%, O2 100%'.
'On my arrival, 40% O2, screaming, sternal recession, poor trace on Sats probe, pink'.
The desaturation was "significant", Dr Loughnane tells the court.

12:43pm

Mr Astbury asks about the significance of the word 'screaming'.
Dr Loughnane says that 'screaming' is not a word she would tend to write very often in her neonatal notes. She says that would indicate Child N was particularly upset.
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, March 2
--

LL being the attending nurse while the designated nurse had gone on his break is a process of elimination, with the other nurses on shift not being present. His saturations, within 5 minutes of CB going on break are recorded as having fallen from 99% to 40% and he was screaming. LL's texts when she came on shift also showing she was researching haemophilia.

Nurses on shift -
"Lucy Letby is recorded as starting her night shift on June 2 at 7.30pm, in time for the 7.30pm-8pm staff handover.
Letby is a designated nurse, with shift leader being Melanie Taylor and other designated nurses being Christoper Booth and Sophie Ellis.
Booth has two babies in room 1, including Child N, Ellis had one in room 2 and two in room 3, and Letby had two in room 4. Two babies were in transitional care, and another baby was 'rooming in with her parents' - that baby's designated nurse was Letby."

JMO

 

[bbsaz]

I think the outline of this second attempted murder charge is also problematic for the prosecution. Unlike other collapses, this one doesn't seem to have been sudden and the baby seems to have been deteriorating all night - when LL wasn't there.
Also while I can see that Lucy could inject air very quickly and innocuously while a colleagues back is turned, for this attempted murder charge they are saying she caused a traumatic injury to the baby's throat. Are they seriously suggesting that she did this while her colleague was in the same room with her back turned 5 minutes after she started her shift? Am I missing something?

I am inclined to agree. IMO this is very weak for the prosecution, and following Baby K this week, who IMO isnt conclusively down to LL, its not been a great week for the prosecution

 

[Jazmania]

I am inclined to agree. IMO this is very weak for the prosecution, and following Baby K this week, who IMO isnt conclusively down to LL, its not been a great week for the prosecution

Yes I agree, for the last few babies they are relying on the cumulative weight of evidence from the entire case to pursuade the jury of guilt. Taken by themselves these cases do not have much evidence behind them. The main evidence is simply that it follows a pattern we have seen before. Babies collapse when their designated nurse goes on a break, or when the parents leave their side. LL is seen cot side around the time it happens. Even if she isn't seen there, she is on shift. Defence will say this is a coincidence, and her presence is now been used as evidence that a crime has taken place.

What is special or different about the desaturation on the 2nd/3rd or June compared to other desaturations when LL wasn't present?

But then if there was no medical reason for N's blood and throat trauma, then he must have been attacked. It's just I'm not clear in this instance when LL is supposed to have done this.

 

[Sweeper2000]

BBM
But it copes better without her? When she swaps to days, the night collapses reduce. When she goes on holiday, they stop/reduce also

The purpose of the trial is to find out in the eyes of the law if ll is responsible, if not it’s the unit that’s to blame or otherwise.

we also don’t know about any other collapses or deaths on the NNU during this time period as only the ones considered unusual are under investigation.