UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #12

[marynnu]

And presumably as they hadn't received another bespoke bag at that point, it would make sense to keep the original bespoke bag up rather than swap it for a stock bag that hadn't been made up to baby F's specifications.

I imagine so, in the sense that it was bespoke as you say.. Strictly speaking it's incorrect in my view as sterility is more important, but this is the most likely scenario I think.

 

[marynnu]

That's the problem I have - even if you have splinting of the diaphragm, it would not be lethal unless the baby in distress was completely ignored and untreated. Aspiration of the stomach is also routine part of resuscitation - which would resolve the pressure on the diaphragm.

When babies get massively distended, they can definitely have trouble breathing, which is why we might intubate them to help them, but the distension is not typically fatal - that mechanism of injury doesn't make sense medically to me.

All the following is my opinion only.

One problem is that if this attack genuinely took place, we don't know how long the diaphragm might have been splinted before the baby vomited and the alarm sounded. The type of alarm is crucial IMO - a heart rate or sats monitor would respond pretty quickly to a problem, but apnoea (not breathing) monitors can be a problem as they can respond not only to respirations but also to movement. If a baby is struggling for breath they can still be triggered.

 

[sapphireminds]

Where do you think the irreversible brain damage came from? The medical experts believed it was from the aftermath from her collapse. She had to be intubated and placed on a ventilator. She was very weak and never fully recovered.

She was being fed through the nose. Is it impossible that someone overfed her?

Nope, not impossible, but I struggle to see how it could be the cause of all that happened after that.

All the following is my opinion only.

One problem is that if this attack genuinely took place, we don't know how long the diaphragm might have been splinted before the baby vomited and the alarm sounded. The type of alarm is crucial IMO - a heart rate or sats monitor would respond pretty quickly to a problem, but apnoea (not breathing) monitors can be a problem as they can respond not only to respirations but also to movement. If a baby is struggling for breath they can still be triggered.

But if they are having trouble breathing, their sats would go down. Often an apnea alarm will never go off because it will pick up other movements, but if the baby is apneic, their sats would go down, then their HR - so if her sats went down, people would have responded.

 

[marynnu]

Nope, not impossible, but I struggle to see how it could be the cause of all that happened after that.

But if they are having trouble breathing, their sats would go down. Often an apnea alarm will never go off because it will pick up other movements, but if the baby is apneic, their sats would go down, then their HR - so if her sats went down, people would have responded.

You haven't read what I said, which is exactly the same as you. The problem is we don't know what monitoring this baby was on, as far as I can tell.

 

[sapphireminds]

You haven't read what I said, which is exactly the same as you. The problem is we don't know what monitoring this baby was on, as far as I can tell.

I misunderstood what you said - as you were talking about apnea monitoring and how it isn't as accurate - but in my experience, there wouldn't be an apnea monitor on without CV monitoring, as it is the same set of leads.

 

[marynnu]

I misunderstood what you said - as you were talking about apnea monitoring and how it isn't as accurate - but in my experience, there wouldn't be an apnea monitor on without CV monitoring, as it is the same set of leads.

No probs. We also have separate apnoea monitors that only have that one job!

 

[sapphireminds]

No probs. We also have separate apnoea monitors that only have that one job!

That you use in a hospital? Wow. I would never have imagined that the UK struggled that much with obtaining equipment and monitoring for their units!

 

[marynnu]

That you use in a hospital? Wow. I would never have imagined that the UK struggled that much with obtaining equipment and monitoring for their units!

They're used for stable babies heading for home.

 

[Dotta]

I guess "insulin cases" might be decisive.
B/c both Prosecution and Defence agree insulin was added deliberately.

JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

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[katydid23]

Nope, not impossible, but I struggle to see how it could be the cause of all that happened after that.

What would be the reason for a nurse to overfeed a newborn so much at one time? It must have been malicious, IMO>

But if they are having trouble breathing, their sats would go down. Often an apnea alarm will never go off because it will pick up other movements, but if the baby is apneic, their sats would go down, then their HR - so if her sats went down, people would have responded.

Maybe the alarm was on off or on pause? And maybe the caregiver did nothing to help?

 

[Dotta]

I wonder about Jury.
They are considered to be "peers" of the defendant, right?
So
Does it mean this particular Jury might be medics?
Or just random ppl?
What is the key to form Jury?
I mean - percentage of women/men/young/old/educated/with low educational level.

In my country we have benchmark trials, with only 1 or 2 jurors as "social element" (usually retired folks - but with excellent credentials).
They give their opinions to the Judge/s but don't decide if a defendant is guilty or not, it is Judge's job.

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

I wonder about Jury.
They are considered to be "peers" of the defendant, right?
So
Does it mean this particular Jury might be medics?
Or just random ppl?
What is the key to form Jury?
I mean - percentage of women/men/young/old/educated/with low educational level.

In my country we have benchmark trials, with only 1 or 2 jurors as "social element" (usually retired folks - but with excellent credentials).
They give their opinions to the Judge/s but don't decide if a defendant is guilty or not, it is Judge's job.

JMO

all jmo but I think a jury is supposed to be representative of the society it serves so more or less random people. I’m really not sure of the rules as to selection but guessing it’s kind of a lottery but they try to ensure it isn’t prejudiced in any way, so no one can be on the jury that knows or is associated with the defendant in any way. “Peers“ just means members of the public Like the defendant.

i believe the judge when it comes to judging already has the rules as to what they decide on if found guilty. So they using many factors in judgement ie past history of offences (if any) will use the guidelines in sentencing ie maximum sentence or minimum. Prison sentence or not, fine if any, loss of licence etc

interesting that it is the judge in your country that decides the verdict. Cant see a reason for the jury in that case. Unless they are there purely as an influence on the judge.

 

[Dotta]

all jmo but I think a jury is supposed to be representative of the society it serves so more or less random people. I’m really not sure of the rules as to selection but guessing it’s kind of a lottery but they try to ensure it isn’t prejudiced in any way, so no one can be on the jury that knows or is associated with the defendant in any way. “Peers“ just means members of the public Like the defendant.

i believe the judge when it comes to judging already has the rules as to what they decide on if found guilty. So they using many factors in judgement ie past history of offences (if any) will use the guidelines in sentencing ie maximum sentence or minimum. Prison sentence or not, fine if any, loss of licence etc

interesting that it is the judge in your country that decides the verdict. Cant see a reason for the jury in that case. Unless they are there purely as an influence on the judge.

Their opinions matter to the Judge, but he/she is the boss haha
After all, to become a Judge means years and years of education in law.
JMO

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

all jmo but I think a jury is supposed to be representative of the society it serves so more or less random people. I’m really not sure of the rules as to selection but guessing it’s kind of a lottery but they try to ensure it isn’t prejudiced in any way, so no one can be on the jury that knows or is associated with the defendant in any way. “Peers“ just means members of the public Like the defendant.

i believe the judge when it comes to judging already has the rules as to what they decide on if found guilty. So they using many factors in judgement ie past history of offences (if any) will use the guidelines in sentencing ie maximum sentence or minimum. Prison sentence or not, fine if any, loss of licence etc

interesting that it is the judge in your country that decides the verdict. Cant see a reason for the jury in that case. Unless they are there purely as an influence on the judge.

The jury decides whether someone is guilty or not guilty. Then it is for the judge to pass the sentence , which will take into account early guilty pleas, background , history of offending etc.

 

[Sillybilly]

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UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #12

Sky News link: Healthcare worker arrested on suspicion of murdering eight babies Media, Maps & Timeline *NO DISCUSSION* thread Thread #1 Thread #2 Thread #3 Thread #4 Thread #5 Thread #6 Thread #7 Thread #8 Thread #9 Thread #10 Thread #11

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[Parker Knoll]

The jury is made up of 12 individuals
We have zero knowledge of them nor will we ever.
As it should be.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I wonder about Jury.
They are considered to be "peers" of the defendant, right?
So
Does it mean this particular Jury might be medics?
Or just random ppl?
What is the key to form Jury?
I mean - percentage of women/men/young/old/educated/with low educational level.

In my country we have benchmark trials, with only 1 or 2 jurors as "social element" (usually retired folks - but with excellent credentials).
They give their opinions to the Judge/s but don't decide if a defendant is guilty or not, it is Judge's job.

JMO

'A jury of one's peers' means a selection of average people from society. There are some people who are 'ineligible' and others who can 'exempt' from jury duty in the UK, otherwise it's anyone and everyone. I believe even the upper age range has been raised to include older persons.

Personally, I can't imagine how difficult it must be hearing out this technical evidence if one is not an academic or intellectual or that way minded.

 

[sapphireminds]

What would be the reason for a nurse to overfeed a newborn so much at one time? It must have been malicious, IMO>

Maybe the alarm was on off or on pause? And maybe the caregiver did nothing to help?

I don't know - The over feeding could somehow have been a mistake, maybe it wasn't as much as estimated in the vomit. I am not sure what happened there, I'll have to wait and see what the defense provides as alternate explanation.

Ideally there would be records of it - another benefit of computer charting is that vital signs are automatically pulled in from the monitors - a nurse needs to verify they are accurate, because monitors aren't perfect, but you can see if someone disconnected the baby or the baby was having an event.

You can do that manually on a monitor too, and it's often done to get times for codes afterwards. But it sounds like this hospital barely had monitoring. <modsnip: quoted post was removed/off topic>

 

[ColourPurple]

I don't know - The over feeding could somehow have been a mistake, maybe it wasn't as much as estimated in the vomit. I am not sure what happened there, I'll have to wait and see what the defense provides as alternate explanation.

In your experience could a baby being gravity fed by a NG tube take in so much milk and air in one feed that their stomach was purple and distended and they projectile vomited?

Or is the medical expert's opinion that milk and air must've been forced in by plunger, as it wouldn't have got there by gravity, feasible?

And what's your opinion of LL's explanation that babies swallow a lot of air when vomiting? Here's a summary of the explantion put forward:.

"Despite Baby G having been given only 45mls of milk in a 2am feed, the amount she vomited was 'far, far more' than that.

'She probably had more air as well, and given that it had increased the abdomen distention I don't think this got down by gravity.

'The logical explanation is that the plunger at the end of the syringe must have been inserted and milk squirted down the tube using the syringe.

'This will have caused the abdominal distention, then she will have vomited because of the gross over-distention of her stomach'...

But he rejected the barrister's assertion that he was basing his theory about the vomiting on the assumption that a nurse had aspirated the baby - checked that her stomach was empty -prior to the 2am feed.

'No, it's based on extraordinary presentation: the vomit has spread over the canopy, over the floor and over the chair. And after the vomiting there was an aspiration of 45mls.

'So there has to be a significant amount of additional milk, plus air, to explain what happened to the little babe (correct) at 2am'.

Lucy Letby 'used syringe to force milk and air into baby', court told

Neonatal nurse Lucy Letby used the plunger on the end of a syringe to force milk and air into one of the babies she allegedly tried to murder, a medical expert told a jury today.

www.dailymail.co.uk