UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #13

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
That has to depend on the conclusions reached, surely
The defence can send the information out to a number of “ experts “ to draw their own conclusions to assist in the defence case - It’s not limited in that respect.
I have known solicitors in days of old to keep going until they get the answers that suits their case.
 
That's right and nurse Ellis confirmed this in court. There was already something different going on medically with the baby after an otherwise uneventful 2 days.

"Nurse Ellis says this was something notable for Child O, hence the need for a second opinion. It was not a concern in intself, taking into context other observations, but it was "one to keep an eye on".

I noticed that around the time he seems to start showing signs of his stomach swelling, antibiotics have stopped. Could well be coincidental.
Do we know why the baby was on anti b's?
 
Pretty odd IMO.

Maybe inevitable to feel creeped out by the idea of her weeping and dressing them and making a memory box, given the accusations she faces.

But the grief belongs to the parents.
Strange that she dressed them I thought. But then I guess it could have been the case that that its what the parents requested. Maybe they were too upset to bath and dress the babies, which would be completely understandable if that were the case.
 
I'd missed these tweets from today! .

A nursing note from 23 June, recorded at 20:51 by Ms Letby, is being shown to court. It summarises Child O's deterioration and what happened with parents after (being taken to family room to be with him)

Shortly after a doctor, who cannot be named for legal reasons, messaged Ms Letby asking if she was okay - she responded 'think so, just finishing my notes, can't wait to get home'. The doctor asks her if she is going to vote in the Brexit referendum on 23 June 2016, 'no can't face that' she says

To another colleague, Ms Letby says - with a sad emoji - 'I want to be in Ibiza', the nurse had just got back from a holiday there before the two boys died

The nursing colleague says 'I bet you don't want to go back in tomorrow', Ms Letby says 'I do and I don't' think good to go back in and talk about it'

Court continuing to be shown messages between Ms Letby and colleagues sent that evening. In one message a doctor, who can't be named for legal reasons, tells Ms Letby 'we do work well together' with a winking emoji

The messages between the doctor and Ms Letby are after midnight 23 June (into 24 June) when both had finished their shifts. The doctor had comforted the nurse after the death of Child O and both were reflecting on the day

Ms Letby apologises for 'blubbering', the doctor says that is 'normal for someone who cares about the babies' being cared for

The pair wish each other goodnight around 1.25am and then he messages her again that morning asking how she slept and letting her know that a medical director has been on ward

The court is shown an incident report, filled out by Ms Letby on June 30, which related to Child O's collapse and death on 23 June. It states that 'resources not available on unit' to deal with resus

She said that 'staff obtained equipment from children's ward' and that there was a 'delay in this happening due to staff being needed for infant care needs'



links to each tweet:
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1633472986995994631?s=20
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1633473528086294530?s=20
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1633475070034149379?s=20
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1633476262701219841?s=20
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1633476402891587585?s=20
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1633476679208189952?s=20
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1633478665915838466?s=20
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1633478667740360705?s=20
 
Last edited:
More tweets from today.

A former nursing colleague of Ms Letby, Sophie Ellis, is now in the witness box and answering questions about the events surrounding Child O

She recalls Child O was reviewed towards the end of 22 June and he had quite a 'full abdomen'. She's now reviewing observation charts from the 22 June to morning of 23

Other than that, Ms Ellis recorded that Child O was 'stable' throughout that night. Her notes from 2.19am on 23 June state that the boy was 'pink warm and well perfused' and that he was 'tolerating feeds well'

Notes from later that morning, at 7.32am, state that Child O's abdomen 'looks full slightly loopy' and that he 'appeared uncomfortable after feed'

He was reviewed by Dr Mayberry, at that time he did 'not appear in any discomfort on examination'. Plan was to keep him under review

Noes from that morning show that antibiotics were stopped for Child O, Ms Ellis says this 'would suggest that everything was okay'

Ms Ellis says overall based on those notes he 'had a very stable night'

Child O died while Ms Ellis was off duty, she tells the court she found out when she came back on shift that evening. Lucy Letby told her as she had worked the day shift


Ben Myers KC is now questioning Ms Ellis. He asks her if there was something of concern, would she report to a doctor - she agrees. He says the doctors were busy that night, she says 'they were'


Links to individual tweets:
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1633490080789569537?s=20
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1633490082651942916?s=20
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1633491929819230212?s=20
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1633492217229631492?s=20
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1633492635699560448?s=20
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1633496796101058562?s=20
 
Last edited:
I agree and remembering that it took 2 years or more to bring it to trial. I'm so confused why people criticize Evans for changing his reports based on emerging evidence.
This would seem to me to be the logical thing to do rather than an example of a corrupt process.
How on earth would the police make sense of the medical data without medical guidance? How would they even be competent in investigation were it not for for medical guidance?
The specific example which makes me disregard dr evans’ evidence is baby C.

He wrote 8 reports and said that there had been a deliberate injection of air into baby c on 12 June. And then on the stand, he then said that there had in fact been air injected on 13 June which caused a splintering of the diaphragm and caused death. Dr evans admitted that there was no new evidence since his earlier reports to make him change his opinion . No explanation was given for the change in opinion other than that dr evans was “taking into account all the evidence”.

Why does this matter? Because LL was not on duty 10-12 June inclusive.

So to recap: you have an expert saying that there was air injected into baby c causing death on a date when the person on trial for multiple counts of murder and AM could not have done it.

The only way the murder charge for baby c can still hold up is if the medical evidence is that something was done to baby C when the accused was on shift. Which dr evans miraculously produces on the stand for the first time in November 2022.

So you can see the implications for this. That is why I have a real problem with anything dr evans says now.
 
Did it say anywhere what time LL logged in for her shift on the 23rd?
Not sure if I’ve missed it :rolleyes:
 
It's not clear who wrote the 7.32am note, as LL was on shift from 7.30am but there's a big difference between a baby's stomach being described as full but soft, and it being so swollen, he looked like ET.
Indeed, but what I was getting at was whether there was an issue causing the abdomen to be full which occurred before LL was on duty which then progressively got worse, leading to the baby looking like ET and ultimately dying.
 
The specific example which makes me disregard dr evans’ evidence is baby C.

He wrote 8 reports and said that there had been a deliberate injection of air into baby c on 12 June. And then on the stand, he then said that there had in fact been air injected on 13 June which caused a splintering of the diaphragm and caused death. Dr evans admitted that there was no new evidence since his earlier reports to make him change his opinion . No explanation was given for the change in opinion other than that dr evans was “taking into account all the evidence”.

Why does this matter? Because LL was not on duty 10-12 June inclusive.

So to recap: you have an expert saying that there was air injected into baby c causing death on a date when the person on trial for multiple counts of murder and AM could not have done it.

The only way the murder charge for baby c can still hold up is if the medical evidence is that something was done to baby C when the accused was on shift. Which dr evans miraculously produces on the stand for the first time in November 2022.

So you can see the implications for this. That is why I have a real problem with anything dr evans says now.
If you would be so kind as to attach the link, I'd be happy to have a look at this again based on your comments
 
If you would be so kind as to attach the link, I'd be happy to have a look at this again based on your comments
The testimony from dr evans re: baby c :


And LL shift patterns mentioned at entry at 12:10pm:

 
And LL shift patterns mentioned at entry at 12:10pm:


thanks but appears to be 2015 babies A to D
12:10pm

The first evidence shown to the court is Lucy Letby's shift patterns for June 2015.
It shows which days Letby was on 'long day' shifts, and 'night' shifts.
She worked long day shifts on June 2, 4, 17, 19, 27 and 28.
She worked night shifts on June 8, 9, 13, 14, 21, 22 and 23.
Child A died on the night of June 8-9, and Child B had a non-fatal collapse on June 9-10.
Child C died on the night of June 13-14.
Child D died on the night of June 21-22.
 
thanks but appears to be 2015 babies A to D
12:10pm

The first evidence shown to the court is Lucy Letby's shift patterns for June 2015.
It shows which days Letby was on 'long day' shifts, and 'night' shifts.
She worked long day shifts on June 2, 4, 17, 19, 27 and 28.
She worked night shifts on June 8, 9, 13, 14, 21, 22 and 23.
Child A died on the night of June 8-9, and Child B had a non-fatal collapse on June 9-10.
Child C died on the night of June 13-14.
Child D died on the night of June 21-22.
Yes, I was responding to a comment about baby c in 2015.
 
Sorry I don't know how this is going to land but I've had a real shitter of a day and a lot of this is extremely triggering. My heart breaks for these families.

The more I read anything from the doctors along the lines of 'it would never have occurred to me that a nurse would be attacking babies', the angrier I get. That's why we have safeguarding, right? If you provide care for vulnerable people - in this case poorly babies - then you have a duty of care to prevent them coming to harm.

When it is clear to you that the babies in your care are coming to harm, it is your job to consider all the possibilities - including staff negligence or malice. That isn't to say they are your only options, but you need to be open to considering them, right? Otherwise that is such an obvious way a child is going to come to harm?

Surely it's the same with teachers? Ideally, a teacher would never need to suspect another of harming a child but we all know we do not live in that world.

I understand that the Trust aren't the ones on trial here, and should the jury find LL guilty then none of this mitigates what she has done, but I feel so angry that the safety and wellbeing of these babies is being so readily dismissed. I hope this features somewhere in Myres closing statement. When RJ and his colleagues had their discussions, what was actually said? Where are the emails that were sent to the Head of Nursing and then... was it the Medical Director? I can't remember.

And why only the Head of Nursing in the first instance? I assume because their suspicions either were that it was a problem with LL either negligently or perhaps within the wider nursing staff? It's really difficult to work out what LL's colleagues made of her - it seems like she did have a close knit group of friends who regularly checked in on each other and used each other for emotional support (LL mostly on the receiving end), and sometimes we might think she's seen as driven, competent and capable through some of her interactions with the drs praising her, but then other times we hear that there are some that feel she might be out of her depth and seem worried about the care she is giving to the sicker babies (this is just my inference).

Again, I think we need to see exactly what RJ said to the Head of Nursing, and what she said 'probably not, let's see' to. Because is that actually what she said? When babies were dying? Let's see. (I will edit if I have misrememberd). I could go on and on but my heart is so broken. I have no idea if LL is guilty. But I do believe that if I am to believe what the prosecution say, then yes she is guilty of something I will never, ever be able to comprehend - but we are also here because so many people failed to protect those babies and their families.

JMO - mods delete if too aggy - sorry everyone x
 
The specific example which makes me disregard dr evans’ evidence is baby C.

He wrote 8 reports and said that there had been a deliberate injection of air into baby c on 12 June. And then on the stand, he then said that there had in fact been air injected on 13 June which caused a splintering of the diaphragm and caused death. Dr evans admitted that there was no new evidence since his earlier reports to make him change his opinion . No explanation was given for the change in opinion other than that dr evans was “taking into account all the evidence”.

Why does this matter? Because LL was not on duty 10-12 June inclusive.

So to recap: you have an expert saying that there was air injected into baby c causing death on a date when the person on trial for multiple counts of murder and AM could not have done it.

The only way the murder charge for baby c can still hold up is if the medical evidence is that something was done to baby C when the accused was on shift. Which dr evans miraculously produces on the stand for the first time in November 2022.

So you can see the implications for this. That is why I have a real problem with anything dr evans says now.
Accuracy is really important when one is making any implication of impropriety.

He didn't change his opinion on the stand as regards an injection of air on the 12th.

The court report said -

"Mr Myers says the 2019 report said Dr Evans raised a possibility of deliberate injection of air from June 12 via the naso-gastric tube.
Dr Evans, reflecting on that report, said: "Can't rule it out".
Mr Myers refers to a 'massive gastric dilation' was 'most likely' due to an injection of air on June 12.
Dr Evans: "That was a possibility, yes."
Dr Evans said what was being discussed, on June 12, there was a "distinct possibility" Child C had excess air in the stomach from CPAP belly.
He was "still stable" from a respiratory point of view.
He tell the court: "However the air went in, it would have been insufficient to splinter the diaphragm on the 12th, as he would've collapsed and died on the 12th."
The air which had gone in was 'insufficient' to cause a collapse. There was 'nothing to suggest' the excess air was enough on June 12.
He says the two events on June 12 and 13 "are quite different" in the way they happened
.
Mr Myers said that it was Dr Evans's view, a couple of months ago, there was deliberate harm on June 12.
"That was a possibility, yes it was."

Mr Myers says the x-ray from June 12 had helped form Dr Evans's initial view that there had been an air injection into the stomach.
"That was an opinion I have expressed, yes."
Mr Myers asks Dr Evans what evidence there is to support that air had been injected into the stomach on June 13.
Dr Evans: "The baby collapsed and died."



If anything it shows he was not honing in on a suspect as some here seem to think. He didn't ever opine that one explanation for air in child C's stomach on the 12th being deliberate, the other being CPAP belly, killed him a day later.

Dr Evans didn't admit there was no new evidence since his earlier reports to make him change his opinion. He said the exact opposite.

The court report said -

"Mr Myers suggests that Dr Evans's opinion alone would not have reached this conclusion.
Dr Evans said the death could not be explained from the usual causes babies get. He said, taking into account all the other evidence and information from experienced medical people's reports, and reading the pathology report, the splintering of the diaphragm was now his conclusion.
He said he was functioning as a clinician.

He adds that in coming to his conclusion for this case he is not relying solely on his opinions, but taking in other clinical evidence and reports.
"That is what doctors do, we do it all the time." in what Dr Evans says is a "complicated case".

Dr Evans tells the court the process in accumulating information in reaching his conclusions.

Dr Evans says if he receives additional evidence, then he will change his mind

He adds, for further medical information, he would prefer to defer the matter to the radiologist and pathologist.
He said he objects to being accused by Mr Myers of making things up, and says he is putting forward the information in this case as a result of his own opinion and that of other people's reports.

Mr Myers suggests that Dr Evans has just made up information as he has gone along.
"You keep saying that, and I keep disagreeing.
"


Dr Sandie Bohin came to the same conclusion.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 1

JMO

ETA This is in relation to child C
 
Last edited:
Indeed, but what I was getting at was whether there was an issue causing the abdomen to be full which occurred before LL was on duty which then progressively got worse, leading to the baby looking like ET and ultimately dying.


It's certainly something the jury may consider but alternatively, if guilty it might be that LL chose her alleged methods based on mild exisiting conditions so that they might appear less suspicious. So for the two babies with previous blood sugar problems she allegedly chose insulin poisoning, for the baby with a bleeding disorder, she allegedly chose to inlfict trauma that would cause bleeding.

IMO JMo if guilty etc.


Nurse Ellis has described Baby O as having had a very stable and positive night with no concerns, and the only thing to report was a full abdomen at the end of that shift. Of the 7.32am note she said:

"This was something notable for Child O, hence the need for a second opinion. It was not a concern in intself, taking into context other observations, but it was "one to keep an eye on"."

 
Last edited:
The defence can send the information out to a number of “ experts “ to draw their own conclusions to assist in the defence case - It’s not limited in that respect.
I have known solicitors in days of old to keep going until they get the answers that suits their case.
It might not be so simple in a case with multiple experts aligning.

JMO
 
Strange that she dressed them I thought. But then I guess it could have been the case that that its what the parents requested. Maybe they were too upset to bath and dress the babies, which would be completely understandable if that were the case.
What I can't understand is how she brought the two brothers to the parents, because they died a day apart. Sounds horrible to say, but did she retrieve baby O from the mortuary, or have I completely misunderstood?
 
Sorry I don't know how this is going to land but I've had a real shitter of a day and a lot of this is extremely triggering. My heart breaks for these families.

The more I read anything from the doctors along the lines of 'it would never have occurred to me that a nurse would be attacking babies', the angrier I get. That's why we have safeguarding, right? If you provide care for vulnerable people - in this case poorly babies - then you have a duty of care to prevent them coming to harm.

When it is clear to you that the babies in your care are coming to harm, it is your job to consider all the possibilities - including staff negligence or malice. That isn't to say they are your only options, but you need to be open to considering them, right? Otherwise that is such an obvious way a child is going to come to harm?

Surely it's the same with teachers? Ideally, a teacher would never need to suspect another of harming a child but we all know we do not live in that world.

I understand that the Trust aren't the ones on trial here, and should the jury find LL guilty then none of this mitigates what she has done, but I feel so angry that the safety and wellbeing of these babies is being so readily dismissed. I hope this features somewhere in Myres closing statement. When RJ and his colleagues had their discussions, what was actually said? Where are the emails that were sent to the Head of Nursing and then... was it the Medical Director? I can't remember.

And why only the Head of Nursing in the first instance? I assume because their suspicions either were that it was a problem with LL either negligently or perhaps within the wider nursing staff? It's really difficult to work out what LL's colleagues made of her - it seems like she did have a close knit group of friends who regularly checked in on each other and used each other for emotional support (LL mostly on the receiving end), and sometimes we might think she's seen as driven, competent and capable through some of her interactions with the drs praising her, but then other times we hear that there are some that feel she might be out of her depth and seem worried about the care she is giving to the sicker babies (this is just my inference).

Again, I think we need to see exactly what RJ said to the Head of Nursing, and what she said 'probably not, let's see' to. Because is that actually what she said? When babies were dying? Let's see. (I will edit if I have misrememberd). I could go on and on but my heart is so broken. I have no idea if LL is guilty. But I do believe that if I am to believe what the prosecution say, then yes she is guilty of something I will never, ever be able to comprehend - but we are also here because so many people failed to protect those babies and their families.

JMO - mods delete if too aggy - sorry everyone x

Im sorry it's been triggering for you . Today has been particularly heartbreaking to read.

I agree with a lot of what you've said and I think we are going to hear more about what was said to senior managment, as Dr J said something like "But that's not for now" when he was giving evidence.
 
What I can't understand is how she brought the two brothers to the parents, because they died a day apart. Sounds horrible to say, but did she retrieve baby O from the mortuary, or have I completely misunderstood?


Was there mention of a cold cot or cuddle cot?

Simon Rothwell, a founder of CuddleCot and former policeman, started the company after previously working on cooling devices for deceased obese people and then visiting children’s hospices where bodies tended to be kept in cold rooms along with the parents who would stay for days with a deceased child, while being extremely cold themselves.

In hospitals, the Cuddlecot might allow the parents to spend a night with the baby. However, if the mother has had a traumatic labour and has been unable to see their baby for a few days this might be longer. Mr Rothwell says how long the baby can be kept in the Cuddlecot depends on a number of variables including when the baby died and how often it has been taken out of the cot. He is aware of a family who kept their baby for a few weeks over Christmas because they did not want to be apart from it at that time of year.

 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
76
Guests online
1,893
Total visitors
1,969

Forum statistics

Threads
600,146
Messages
18,104,631
Members
230,991
Latest member
lyle.person1
Back
Top