UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #13

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Becky53 said:
That’s the second time hand hygiene has been brought up by parents :confused:. I have twins and the littlest one was taken to NICU as he couldn’t maintain his body temperature and was in there for a few days. I recall being shown a sanitiser dispenser on the wall as you went into the unit and being told to use it on entry, this was in 2002.
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It's so difficult with parents' testimonies isn't it. In such a horrendous situation who knows how we'd perceive things. Where I worked, even the admission of a poorly baby must have looked crazy & chaotic, people rushing about checking drugs & fluids, sorting out monitors etc. I'm not saying that the parents were definitely wrong or anything, just that it's very hard to be sure how thing were.
 
Cardgame said:
IMO the parents evidence is going to favour the defence in some ways. The fact that they didn't trust the hospital does not look good. The hand washing thing is pretty shocking, if true.

What would be very interesting to know is to what extent, by this time, awareness that LL was 'suspicious' or that the baby collapses were 'suspicious' was part of the 'panic' from hospital staff.

Curious also that messages to LL so far contain no speculation from others about what was happening. Was she out of the loop? Was the doctor unaware? Or was he fishing???
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It works both ways though. Dr NiceGuy had already confirmed to LL that the ward was busy, so yes it WAS busy . The parents would not even have contemplated that anybody had allegedly deliberately tried to kill their babies , so they would understandbly lay the blame firmly with the hospital itself.

But if guilty, LL already knew the ward was really busy, and if guilty, may have taken advantage of the fact that it was busy, in order to allegedly attack the babies, causing them to collapse unexpectedly, meaning she was allegedly actually the cause of some/most/ all of the chaos the parents witnessed.


Dr NiceGuy does seem oblivious to any suspicions about LL, but he was a registrar rather than a consultant so I assume the consultants had not informed anybdy else other than senior managment about the association they had seen (and understandbly had expected them to take action)
all JMO , if guilty etc.
 
marynnu said:
It's so difficult with parents' testimonies isn't it. In such a horrendous situation who knows how we'd perceive things. Where I worked, even the admission of a poorly baby must have looked crazy & chaotic, people rushing about checking drugs & fluids, sorting out monitors etc. I'm not saying that the parents were definitely wrong or anything, just that it's very hard to be sure how thing were.
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It is - I thought the delivery suite I was in was like “Charing Cross Station” as there were so many people in there at one point.

Worryingly a foetal probe in scalp wasn’t picking up a trace at start of labour by 2 midwives. They tried quite a few times to get something then my partner noticed that the connector hadn’t been pushed in fully on monitor. Son has had a small bald spot on his head as a result of this which we noticed as he started to grow hair :(
 
katydid23 said:
Just because someone doesn't think of EVERY possibility the first round of an investigation, that does not make them incompetent. Even a very experienced doctor may not think of every single possibility if that one possibility was very rare and seemed, to them, unlikely.

Even as a very experienced doctor, I am sure he has NEVER encountered a nurse maliciously attacking newborns with various deadly methods. Why would he consider that as an initial possibility?


It may not have occurred to him until he began seeing the weird patterns, like babies considered well enough to go home, to suddenly have unexplained collapses, needing 20 to 30 shots of adrenaline. That was a sudden pattern, the need for many adrenaline shots, that was unusual and reoccurring.

I don't see it necessarily as sub-conscious confirmation bias----I think it might be more of slow epiphany or evolving revelation, after watching various patterns unfold. JMO
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the first case file dr evans reviewed he suspected air embolus. Think the first file he looked at was child g but not sure.
 
Just reading today's testimony where a crash cart was mentioned gave me a massive flashback to grey's anatomy. I used to be a massive fan and I know LL mentioned it in a message. In the show there is constant drama and screaming for crash carts, tragic deaths, colleagues consoling each other, sexy doctors, flirtations and more going on. JMO and a thought but if LL was addicted to grey's anatomy she may have become a nurse thinking it would be like on TV and that's why she found it boring. If guilty, she may have wanted her life to be more like a TV drama.
 
Jazmania said:
I think that Myers has to throw everything at trying to discredit the expert medical witnesses, as their testimony is essentially what this case is based on. How successful he has been is debatable.

I think the defence will have experts of their own, but their expertise will be limited to specific medical aspects of the case. Like they might employ an expert on NEC to say that you couldn't rule out NEC for baby x,y,z. I don't think they will have medical experts that have reviewed every aspect of each case and come to a different conclusion, because they would have said if they had these.
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his quote about dr evans and the thirty minutes resus looked informed. He mentions the nitrogen in air and the likelihood of it disappearing. I don’t think that’s something a non informed individual would say about AE.
 
Cardgame said:
IMO the parents evidence is going to favour the defence in some ways. The fact that they didn't trust the hospital does not look good. The hand washing thing is pretty shocking, if true.

What would be very interesting to know is to what extent, by this time, awareness that LL was 'suspicious' or that the baby collapses were 'suspicious' was part of the 'panic' from hospital staff.

Curious also that messages to LL so far contain no speculation from others about what was happening. Was she out of the loop? Was the doctor unaware? Or was he fishing???
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I’m wondering with the very recent and previously unheard of staff coming from elsewhere if the deaths and collapses weren’t causing this. Interesting development in this one as well. When these other staff arrived it seemed the staff at coc kind of handed over to them.
 
Legal said:
Just reading today's testimony where a crash cart was mentioned gave me a massive flashback to grey's anatomy. I used to be a massive fan and I know LL mentioned it in a message. In the show there is constant drama and screaming for crash carts, tragic deaths, colleagues consoling each other, sexy doctors, flirtations and more going on. JMO and a thought but if LL was addicted to grey's anatomy she may have become a nurse thinking it would be like on TV and that's why she found it boring. If guilty, she may have wanted her life to be more like a TV drama.
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Possibly but from what we know I don't get that impression of her. From what I recall reading ages ago it was mentioned by people who knew her that being a nurse is what she wanted to do since so was a child so it's unlikely that she was influenced in that by a TV show.

Also, she's been a nurse for several years - and there was also several years of study and training - so she would have had a pretty good idea of what life as a nurse would be like, I think.

All MOO, obviously.
 
marynnu said:
It's so difficult with parents' testimonies isn't it. In such a horrendous situation who knows how we'd perceive things. Where I worked, even the admission of a poorly baby must have looked crazy & chaotic, people rushing about checking drugs & fluids, sorting out monitors etc. I'm not saying that the parents were definitely wrong or anything, just that it's very hard to be sure how thing were.
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I do agree with you.

It would be very very hard for any hospital in which two of your children died out of the blue like this to seem like it had sufficient quality of care.

I think 'life and death' level activity at the end of which a life is saved must read very differently to the same activity at the end of which a life is lost.

Those poor, poor parents. Unthinkable what they have been through, on top of the grief, to now be contemplating the possibility that their children's deaths were either caused by malicious intent or negligence.

JMO.
 
IMO barristers tend to have a pattern of speech, that we haven’t seen so far if the defence were likely to introduce experts that contradict the 3 experts of the prosecution. (We mustn’t forget the dr who died before the trial). It tends to be along the lines of, “if this is a Fact rather than just your unsubstantiated opinion , why does the expert I’ll be introducing later completely disagree with your conclusions? Of course this may have happened just not reported but as Myers and Evan’s exchanges tend to be mentioned quite a bit, it’s unlikely . Obviously just my opinion based on personal experience.
 
ColourPurple said:
It works both ways though. Dr NiceGuy had already confirmed to LL that the ward was busy, so yes it WAS busy . The parents would not even have contemplated that anybody had allegedly deliberately tried to kill their babies , so they would understandbly lay the blame firmly with the hospital itself.

But if guilty, LL already knew the ward was really busy, and if guilty, may have taken advantage of the fact that it was busy, in order to allegedly attack the babies, causing them to collapse unexpectedly, meaning she was allegedly actually the cause of some/most/ all of the chaos the parents witnessed.


Dr NiceGuy does seem oblivious to any suspicions about LL, but he was a registrar rather than a consultant so I assume the consultants had not informed anybdy else other than senior managment about the association they had seen (and understandbly had expected them to take action)
all JMO , if guilty etc.
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Dr NiceGuy, Dr Choc…. May I submit The Milky Bar Kid for your consideration too?
 
Cluedoneit said:
IMO barristers tend to have a pattern of speech, that we haven’t seen so far if the defence were likely to introduce experts that contradict the 3 experts of the prosecution. (We mustn’t forget the dr who died before the trial). It tends to be along the lines of, “if this is a Fact rather than just your unsubstantiated opinion , why does the expert I’ll be introducing later completely disagree with your conclusions? Of course this may have happened just not reported but as Myers and Evan’s exchanges tend to be mentioned quite a bit, it’s unlikely . Obviously just my opinion based on personal experience.
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I have to admit that, in my totally unsubstantiated and unknowledgeable opinion, I get the vibe that the defence aren't going to be calling their own experts to refute the prosecution's experts.

Just MO.
 
Timeline for O

June 21 LL is on holiday

2.24pm weighing 4lb 7oz O born via c section at 33+5 weeks. Born well and needed just a little oxygen support

June 22

10.45 CBG carried out

13.00 donor milk feeds commenced

6.29pm nurse O'brien notes: 'No signs of increased work of breathing...CBG carried out this AM at 1045, good result....respiratory rate remains stable. Baby nursed in incubator...temp within normal limits.' Fluid requirements checked and correct...10% dextrose infusing via cannula in left hand, site became puffy throughout day....feeds of donor EBM also commenced at 1300hr, currently having 4mls 2 hr...'

7.30pm night shift begins. Nurse Elllis designated nurse for O, P.

11pm ECG dots removed

June 23

Nurse Ellis tells court the oxygen saturation readings were recorded as 'very good - what we would like', at 97% and above. Child O was recorded as not requiring additional oxygen, and was on Optiflow.

2.19am nurse Ellis notes '[incubator] temperature reduced due to temperature of 37.3C - to check hourly as appropriate. All other observations stable. Pink, warm and well perfused....abdo full but soft.'

Nurse Ellis tells court Child O was reviewed towards the end of that night shift as he had "quite a full abdomen".

5.30am cannula removed as no longer needed.

6.30am optiflow weaned down as O coping well

6.41am unknown notes PN nutrition bag stopped as Child O had reached full feeds of donor expressed breast milk, and was 'tolerating well'.

6.41 antibiotics stopped as no longer required

7.30am LL day shift begins, designated nurse for O, P and unknown baby in nursery room 2

7.32am nurse Ellis? notes 'Abdomen looks full slightly loopy. Appeared uncomfortable after feed. Reg Mayberry reviewed. Abdo soft, does not appear in any discomfort on examination. Has had bowels open. To continue to feed but to monitor'

12.10pm Dr records brain scan for Child O noting normal observations.

12.30pm LL records a fluid chart with 'trace aspirates'.

13.15pm A doctor's notes 'vomits and has distended abdomen. 'Trace aspirate...no bile 1x vomit post feed No blood'. 'Unlikely NEC, most likely distention secondary to PMec.'

13.15pm Letby notes: Child O had vomitted [undigested milk], tachycardiac and abdomen distended. NG tube placed on free drainage...blood gas poor as charted...saline bolus given as prescribed with antibiotics. Placed nil by mouth and abdominal x-ray performed. Observations returned to normal'

Prior to 2.40pm x-ray report of 'possible onset of sepsis' by a consultant radiologist said Child O's appearance had improved on a subsequent image. 'NEC or mid gut volvulus cannot be excluded'.

2.40pm A doctor notes: 'Called to see [Child O] at [about] 1440. Desaturation, bradycardia and mottled. Bagged up and transferred to Nursery 1. Neopuff requirement in 100% oxygen...'

2.40pm Letby notes: 'Approx 1440 [Child O] had a profound desaturation to 30s followed by bradycardia. Mottled++ and abdomen red and distended...'

2.46pm shift leader Melanie Taylor enters NICU

3pm Consultant writes 'Child O intubated about 3pm when [doctor colleague's] fast bleep went off. Arrived to find [Child O] was being bagged. Desat to 35...'

3.03-3.08 The doctor records Child O was intubated 'at first attempt'.

3.49pm bleep data shows crash call made

3.51pm LL notes Drs crash called due to desaturation to 30s with bradycardia, minimal chest movement and air entry observed. Reintubated...'

Morphine administered around this time, no exact time given.

4.15pm A doctor records a further collapse and chest compressions commence.

4.19pm LL notes retrospectively CPR commenced 16:19 and medications/fluids given as documented...IV fluids 10% glucose...morphine...'

4.26pm Adrenaline given as well as a prescription for sodium bicarbonate.

4.30pm Dr Brearey records he is called back

5pmish LL notes: 'Placed back on to ventilator. Dopamine commenced....Flecks of blood from NG tube. Discolouration to abdomen. Unable to obtain heel prick...due to poor perfusion.'

5.47pm O dies After 30 mins of resus Dr Brearey notes

LL does incident report 30 June to say resources not available on unit' to deal with resus and that 'staff obtained equipment from children's ward' and that there was a 'delay in this happening due to staff being needed for infant care needs'

Based on
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, March 8


And https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue
 
Legal said:
Just reading today's testimony where a crash cart was mentioned gave me a massive flashback to grey's anatomy. I used to be a massive fan and I know LL mentioned it in a message. In the show there is constant drama and screaming for crash carts, tragic deaths, colleagues consoling each other, sexy doctors, flirtations and more going on. JMO and a thought but if LL was addicted to grey's anatomy she may have become a nurse thinking it would be like on TV and that's why she found it boring. If guilty, she may have wanted her life to be more like a TV drama.
Click to expand...

ETA- I think the reference to Greys anatomy was actually LL saying she should see it rather than being a fan "She adds: "I think I need to see greys anatomy !!!""...

However, when Baby A and B's cases were being discussed in court they mentioned LL texting about watching An hour to Save your life. Baby A died on the 8th June 2015, Baby B survived an alleged attack on the 9th/10th June night shift.

In one message referring to Baby A's death, Letby said: 'We all need answers.'She told a colleague later that she had been watching An Hour To Save Your Life, a TV documentary following life on a neonatal unit. The woman said she did not watch such programmes, explaining: 'get enough in work'.But Letby explained her fascination: 'I just find it interesting, to see how our work is portrayed to the public.'

This was the episode she referred to (the other episodes weren't based in neonatal units). The trailer clips for it are dated 2nd June 2015 but it didn't air until 9th June 2015

This episode explores the life-or-death decisions facing doctors and midwives as they battle with neonatal emergencies. Based in a specialist maternity unit, it follows three babies, minute by minute, second by second, as frontline midwives and neonatologists fight to keep them alive through the critical first hour after birth

LINKS:
www.bbc.co.uk

BBC Two - An Hour To Save Your Life, Series 2, Surviving Birth

The life-or-death decisions facing doctors and midwives in neonatal emergencies.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
www.dailymail.co.uk

Lucy Letby 'told colleagues she had

Letby, 32, of Hereford, denies the murders of seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital, Cheshire, and the attempted murders of a further 10 infants.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, February 2

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…
www.chesterstandard.co.uk www.chesterstandard.co.uk
 
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