UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #14

[Tortoise]

This is what I find so bizarre. If guilty, it suggests a level of 'nerve' on her part that borders on, well, the ridiculous. Almost to a farcical degree in that if this were a dark tv drama, we'd be collectively eye-rolling and saying, nope, not real life, no one could do what she's doing and expect to avoid detection. She was - colleagues on a break, in another room, attending to another baby notwithstanding - operating in plain sight imo and yet doesn't seem, based on what we've heard of her general behaviour, to have had the slightest idea that she could be under suspicion!

It's bizarre.

where were the signs for her to notice that she was under suspicion?

I wouldn't expect consultants to fuel any rumours.

In fact it seems she was paying attention, the first time that a consultant had a word with another nurse in the stock room. She texted doctor choc about it that night which seems to show she did have an ear out.

 

[ColourPurple]

This is what I find so bizarre. If guilty, it suggests a level of 'nerve' on her part that borders on, well, the ridiculous. Almost to a farcical degree in that if this were a dark tv drama, we'd be collectively eye-rolling and saying, nope, not real life, no one could do what she's doing and expect to avoid detection. She was - colleagues on a break, in another room, attending to another baby notwithstanding - operating in plain sight imo and yet doesn't seem, based on what we've heard of her general behaviour, to have the slightest idea that she could be under suspicion!

It's bizarre.

If guilty, this could be down to complacency, delusion, arrogance, or a feeling of invincibility. If guilty she had allegedly avoided detection so far, so why would she think anything would change?

Having said that, there were also some possible signs, if guilty that she'd taken steps to avoid detection:

• By allegedly adapting and varying her alleged methods.
• By allegedly using methods that were linked to a baby's pre-existing health conditions, for example allegedly using a method that caused bleeding in a baby with a bleeding disorder, and using insulin poisoning on a baby whose blood sugar had been low.
• Shortly after a colleague pointed out that LL needed a break from the deaths and collapses being on her shift, she allegedly used insulin poisoning via TPN, which meant the poisoning would continue onto somebody else's shift.

All IMO, if guilty etc.

 

[Anxala]

Similar to Beverley Allitt perhaps? I know we have to be cautious about drawing parallels, but her behaviour strikes me as quite reckless. IMO.

Reckless, in this context, seems almost like an understatement. This is reckless with serious knobs on.

It's so difficult to get inside the mindset of someone that could have done what LL is alleged to have done and yet appear so generally 'benign'.

 

[ColourPurple]

.

where were the signs for her to notice that she was under suspicion?

I wouldn't expect consultants to fuel any rumours.

In fact it seems she was paying attention, the first time that a consultant had a word with another nurse in the stock room. She texted doctor choc about it that night which seems to show she did have an ear out.

There was what one of the doctors thought was a strange reaction to the Alder Hey team being at Baby N's resus too. Approaching the doctor a few times asking "Who are these people?"

 

[Dotta]

Just wanted to add some context regarding the executive nurse mentioned in court today.
The consultant said he phoned "the on call executive" so presumably was on a week day after 6pm or a weekend day.
This nurse wasn't the hospital nurse director (chief nurse) she was senior nurse for the urgent care division...she would also not have been a executive nurse for maternity/ neonatal.
She just happened to be on call.
I can understand why she would not agree to suspend someone not from her division based on an "on call" phone conversation...but imo ..and jmo I would have expected an on call director to immediately phone the chief exec and / or the chief nurse / and / or the HR director to take further advice based on such a serious call.

I don't understand.

Why would a Consultant call somebody who had no authority upon LL as not from her "division"??

JMO

 

[JosieJo]

I don't understand.

Why would a Consultant call somebody who had no authority upon LL as not from her "division"??

JMO

Usually in UK nhs hospitals "out of hours" ...which is evenings and weekends there are "on call" directors ..they take it in turn to be "on call" for any problems that arise

 

[Tortoise]

.


There was what one of the doctors thought was a strange reaction to the Alder Hey team being at Baby N's resus too. Approaching the doctor a few times asking "Who are these people?"

There was also her text to doc choc while Alder Hey were there -

LL: 'Sat having a quiet moment and want to cry. Just mad with so many people and lack of space etc.'

Doc: 'Oh Lucy, poor little thing and you. Are you OK? Have a cry, you'll feel better for it I'm sure. You're welcome to take my car home if you're too tired to walk. I sort out picking it up in the morning. So sorry you've had a rubbish day at the end of your long run - holiday well and truly deserved.'

LL: 'I'm OK just feel like I've been running around all day and not really achieved anything positive for him. Don't want to cry in front of people here, maybe when I'm home!


But baby N was successfully intubated and made a recovery, so I would have expected relief!

 

[esther43]

The timeline is so surrel:
June 23rd - Baby O (triplet) Murder Allegation
June 24th - Baby P (triplet) Murder Allegation
June 25th - Baby Q Attempted Murder Allegation

All in the span of 3 days. I don't think any other charges are consecutive except for:
Baby A and B (twins) 8th - 11th June 2015
Baby E and F (twins) 4th - 5th August 2015

Maybe not a pattern but it is strange how the twins and triplets all seem to be on consecutive days.

Not forgetting twins L & M - there was definitely a multiples theme IMO.
I have never heard of twin babies over say, 28 weeks where both have been sick at the same time. For this to happen in four different cases in one year is off the scale.

 

[Dotta]

Not forgetting twins L & M - there was definitely a multiples theme IMO.
I have never heard of twin babies over say, 28 weeks where both have been sick at the same time. For this to happen in four different cases in one year is off the scale.

These patterns seem to reflect certain (alleged) compulsions IMO.

Like, when some ppl are compelled to perform some activities over and over again - however senseless they seem to others.

JMO

 

[Dotta]

"Senior hospital executive 'ignored three warnings by consultant paediatrician that Lucy Letby might be responsible for deaths in neonatal unit'."​

"They eventually decided to bring in a colleague from the Liverpool Women's Hospital to carry out a review in February 2016.

Once that report had been completed the consultants and Ms Powell had sought a meeting with senior executives, including the director of nursing and the director of safety and quality.

He recalled Letby later walking past him, appearing 'happy and upbeat'.

'She looked me in the eye very confidently'."

Senior hospital executive ignored warnings about killer Lucy Letby

Karen Rees, a duty executive in urgent care in June 2016, insisted there was no evidence against Letby, and refused to take her off duty until the unexplained death of a triplet was investigated.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[notsure]

a/ we don't know if anyone was observing what she was doing at all times and b/ no one saw her doing what she is alleged to have done so she could have been waiting for moments when others had their backs turned, were preoccupied, or absent.

One of the most obvious patterns in the evidence in this case is that people had just left the room, nurses and parents, when collapses occurred.

Would you expect there to be other evidence of her watching for people observing her?

I was thinking more about her showing some kind of nervousness, something different in her texting style, or something, if she thought they were onto her. Even when this doctor we heard from today suggested she take the day off tomorrow, it didn't appear to put her off at all. If guilty, surely you would have some feeling of fear that you had been found out. You wouldn't just continue as before, IMO.

 

[Sweeper2000]

As examples of behaviour that one could expect from someone actively trying to play the environment you could expect some things. For instance LL fishing for information from involved people ie managers etc. It’s not particularly difficult to trick people into revealing information. trying to present oneself as a responsible and capable individual so making it more likely that you are not excluded from the current goings on and banter. Trying to make other people look worse than you or bad ie deflection. Trying to curry favour. Over representation of your own positive traits or efforts. Over emphasis of others mistakes and negatives. Using something to Excessively impact another’s state of mind ie “don’t do that, remember last time you failed”.

all of the above and more could be used by an individual trying to keep an eye or ear out for any hint of trouble ahead of time and would show this individual is indeed trying to hide something.

 

[Becci]

There was also her text to doc choc while Alder Hey were there -

LL: 'Sat having a quiet moment and want to cry. Just mad with so many people and lack of space etc.'

Doc: 'Oh Lucy, poor little thing and you. Are you OK? Have a cry, you'll feel better for it I'm sure. You're welcome to take my car home if you're too tired to walk. I sort out picking it up in the morning. So sorry you've had a rubbish day at the end of your long run - holiday well and truly deserved.'

LL: 'I'm OK just feel like I've been running around all day and not really achieved anything positive for him. Don't want to cry in front of people here, maybe when I'm home!


But baby N was successfully intubated and made a recovery, so I would have expected relief!

Oh recovered in the countess?
I thought he went to alderhey & recovered

 

[esther43]

"Senior hospital executive 'ignored three warnings by consultant paediatrician that Lucy Letby might be responsible for deaths in neonatal unit'."​

"They eventually decided to bring in a colleague from the Liverpool Women's Hospital to carry out a review in February 2016.

Once that report had been completed the consultants and Ms Powell had sought a meeting with senior executives, including the director of nursing and the director of safety and quality."

Senior hospital executive ignored warnings about killer Lucy Letby

Karen Rees, a duty executive in urgent care in June 2016, insisted there was no evidence against Letby, and refused to take her off duty until the unexplained death of a triplet was investigated.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Dotta, I'm getting more and more curious about what the nature of the visit from 'the big bods' was all about a few weeks ago ..

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Senior hospital executive ignored warnings about killer Lucy Letby

Karen Rees, a duty executive in urgent care in June 2016, insisted there was no evidence against Letby, and refused to take her off duty until the unexplained death of a triplet was investigated.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In this article it sounds like nobody could really believe it might be Lucy. Dr. Breary is quoted as saying,

that when Letby's name had first been linked to deaths on the unit he had told colleagues: 'No, it can't be Lucy. Not nice Lucy'.

Eirian Powell, the nursing manager of the neonatal unit, had first noticed a connection while carrying out a review into three events in June 2015. 'She looked at all the possible things that could be looked at, which was more than a staffing analysis. She looked at other things, too, like incubator space and micro-biology'.

More from Breary:

'Actually, the senior nursing staff on the unit didn't believe this could be Lucy until the point – and beyond – when O and P died. None of us (the paediatricians) wanted to believe it either'.

Dr Brearey said of Ms Rees' refusal to bar Letby from duty on the unit despite her association with the collapses: 'She believed that Nurse Letby could not have done that'.

No one wanted to think this was LL's doing. I really believe they looked into every other possible explanation. To me it sounds like the opposite of scape-goating.

The rest of this article is very thorough and really takes the listener through the way that these suspicions unfolded.

Lastly, it's mentioned that after Breary's request that Lucy not return to work was denied by Rees:

[Breary] recalled Letby later walking past him, appearing 'happy and upbeat'.

'She looked me in the eye very confidently'.

That suggests a certain coldness and maybe even.... triumph?.... to me? I guess I can't imagine feeling happy and upbeat if I was under scrutiny for my association with baby deaths, whether people thought I was incompetent or malicious, even if the management didn't take me off duty. The very idea gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

 

[esther43]

I don't understand.

Why would a Consultant call somebody who had no authority upon LL as not from her "division"??

I was thinking more about her showing some kind of nervousness, something different in her texting style, or something, if she thought they were onto her. Even when this doctor we heard from today suggested she take the day off tomorrow, it didn't appear to put her off at all. If guilty, surely you would have some feeling of fear that you had been found out. You wouldn't just continue as before, IMO.

I think that the pattern in the behaviour change that is being proposed by the prosecution is that the defendant is a person who has a natural high, after the alleged offences. As reflected in salsa dancing, grand national wins etc, trips to Ibiza.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Agreed.
Horrific.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Lucy Letby: doctor asked for nurse to be removed from duties, trial hears

Hospital boss refused to remove Letby from shift despite colleagues raising concerns about her presence and series of infant deaths

www.theguardian.com

 

[MsBetsy]

Oh recovered in the countess?
I thought he went to alderhey & recovered

There were three alleged attacks. Was her text written before child N was removed from Letby's orbit and recovered at the other hospital?

 

[Tortoise]

For instance LL fishing for information from involved people ie managers etc. It’s not particularly difficult to trick people into revealing information.

doctor messages LL again that morning asking how she slept and letting her know that a medical director has been on ward

LL text to doctor: do I need to be worried about what Dr G was asking?

trying to present oneself as a responsible and capable individual so making it more likely that you are not excluded from the current goings on and banter.

LL adds due to the skillsets, she tends to work in room 1.
LL adds she feels "most at home with ITU and the girls know that Im quite happy to be in 1 so works out well most of the time."
Doc: “I like it when you're in itu - everything feels safe and well organised"
LL: "Awe that's nice to hear, Huw often says that too - see what happens tomorrow."
LL adds there is a potential job opening on the unit which she believes she might be lined up for.

Doc: Phew, not the first day back you were expecting. I was glad you were there, everything felt safe. Thank you for looking out for me.
LL: No, but it happens. Don’t need to thank me, I’m pleased you were there, think we work well together.

Trying to make other people look worse than you or bad ie deflection.

LL said O had died on the student's first day of a four-week placement. She adds who was on duty that day.

Over emphasis of others mistakes and negatives.

LL said one colleague was upset about what had happened.
LL adds: 'Yeah worried she's missed something'