UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #2

[Marantz4250b]

I feel like if I had a patient die on my watch I would likely google the family from time to time. It doesn’t stand out as weird to me. I can only imagine what people would think about my searching history.

I mentioned before that I was going to download my FB activity file. I did - well, just the search history bit.

I'm very much hoping that no one I've been out with over the past 18 months or so disappears or meets a suspicious end as I may well end up as the Daily Mail's next big story! Some people I can barely even recall searching and would never have been able to if the police asked me.

 

[ZaZara]

I can completely relate. I dealt with particularly unpleasant suicide in a house.

For years I connected the scene with that particular style of house, which triggered the image each time I saw such a style of house, so I avoided them.

LL couldn't avoid that room in her workplace. She may have had the insight to realise that facing her negative feelings head on was the way to overcome them.

Agree very much with you and @Cherwell.

I have sometimes returned to a spot where an unpleasantness happened simply to feel if peace had returned. I specifically remember the bedroom of a loved one who had been very ill and died in hospital. The bed was made. Sunlight filled the room. No one was hurting.
It is difficult to put it into words, but being in that moment was very important to me.

 

[Francesca]

Deleting your browser history would probably get rid of any evidence of Google searches. I don't think Google saves anything at their end as to what you've been searching for.

Facebook seems to save everything for ever, though. If you delete the specific searches from the FB search window I think the evidence of them might remain on your account activity history but I couldn't say for certain. You can request a download of your FB activity. I might do that just to see what info it actually retains.

No, investigators can find incredible amounts of information when they go through someone's phone and computer, even if everything has been deleted, they can still dig up your history.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Agree very much with you and @Cherwell.

I have sometimes returned to a spot where an unpleasantness happened simply to feel if peace had returned. I specifically remember the bedroom of a loved one who had been very ill and died in hospital. The bed was made. Sunlight filled the room. No one was hurting.
It is difficult to put it into words, but being in that moment was very important to me.

What a special experience. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[MurderMittens]

This is making me wonder - hypothetically - if you tampered with medication with the intention of causing death or injury, but not with a particular victim in mind, just whichever patient the medication ended up being used on, would that still be murder? Or would it be manslaughter? Do you have to have a victim in mind for it to meet the requirement of premeditation?

late to the game but yes. See the Chicago Tylenol Murders ((A US case in chicago, Illinois) For reference on this topic

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I'm very much hoping that no one I've been out with over the past 18 months or so disappears or meets a suspicious end as I may well end up as the Daily Mail's next big story!

I'd give them a ring in the morning and let them know the value of your house, just in case

 

[yellowxo]

Jumping in apologies it's my first post. I work within nursing so have an interest in this case.

I've found the opening statement poor so far and full of circumstantial evidence. The handover sheet thing it's very common to have full pockets and be in a rush to leave after a 12.5 hour shift. I could absolutely see how a handover sheet could accidentally be taken home.

The Facebook thing needs clarification did she search for lots of patients families or just the ones she supposedly attacked ? I am a member of different groups related to my practice on SM. I also go help colleagues with patients not assigned to me because I like to help and I enjoy teamwork. A patient has also died after a long illness and I got upset when the room was empty, I felt a bit better when a new patient occupied the room.

I get the impression LL lived to work and was a workaholic. I wonder if she did overtime as that would skew the statistics, the defence will surely bring this up. Her defence is very good and has a good reputation at securing not guilty verdicts.

I guess we will have to see but I'm not convinced so far.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

This is making me wonder - hypothetically - if you tampered with medication with the intention of causing death or injury, but not with a particular victim in mind, just whichever patient the medication ended up being used on, would that still be murder? Or would it be manslaughter? Do you have to have a victim in mind for it to meet the requirement of premeditation?

The intent to cause death or serious injury is necessary for murder. Involuntary manslaughter requires no such intent.

In the hypothetical situation you describe, it would also be necessary to prove that cause of any death was significantly due to the drug being tampered with. This determination is from case law.

Therefore, if the required intent and the tampering being the significant causation of death can be proved then murder would stand*

* Caveat - the other elements for murder would need to be proven. They are pretty much a given though.

 

[meanmaryjean]

late to the game but yes. See the Chicago Tylenol Murders ((A US case in chicago, Illinois) For reference on this topic

Great example!

 

[branmuffin]

I agree, and you've put it very well.

I think that a lot of responses come from a feeling of "I wouldn't have done that, therefore it's weird/sinister/creepy/suspicious." But people aren't clones of each other, and we all react in our own various ways.
We also need to use our imagination and try to understand how people may behave differently when stressed or anxious.

I got held up by a guy with a gun once when I was about 21. He poked the gun in my ribs and asked me where I lived and I told him. I have no idea why I did that. My focus was on that gun.

 

[kittythehare]

Sorry if it was mentioned before

BUT

Was she assessed by psychiatrists??

I have no idea.
I cannot imagine what her motivation was and I know almost nothing about her life or personality.
I do know a lot about nursing care and standards though having spent 30 years in the profession, though not in PICU.

 

[Kittybunny]

Following cases on this website gives one a certain cynical edge and clinical detachment to the most awful of crimes. Thus, it is rare for cases to affect me as this one has upon reading the last 2 days worth of the prosecution's opening statements and what they have presented thus far.

Reading about those tiny helpless babies and what they went through, coupled with thinking about what their parents went through, from worry and fear at the premature birth and their precarious conditions, to hope and relief at the stabilization, only to have their most precious babies take a sudden turn for the worst and die? Or be permanently damaged? The heartbreak and anguish must be unbearable, even without the possibility that someone had a hand in it.

But IF, big IF, all that suffering was caused deliberately, with intent, with malice afterthought...it's truly unfathomable.

Thank you to whoever quoted Carl Sagan (one of my heroes): "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," because the cruelty and malevolence of such acts would be extraordinary indeed.

Sending the jury the strength and enlightenment to see past the emotion in this case and examine the evidence to discern the truth, whatever it may be (and of which I have no strong opinion on as of yet).

 

[Bakers]

I wonder what is the number of babies' deaths in this hospital after her arrest.
Is the rate the same or lower?

Also, how come she was left alone in the room with babies?
Usually there are at least 2 nurses working together - just to prevent such cases.

Did a doctor decide about babies' treatment?
A nurse only does what a doctor orders.

This case is too horrifying for me to follow closely

They where very under staffed and not enough graded nurses to the extent they where told not to take babies born before 32 weeks

 

[kittythehare]

Nothing unusual about that.

It was perhaps her way to deal with a traumatic incident.

Court told that Lucy Letby was supposed to be in another room entirely, nursing a different baby. But she texted a friend at the time.. (1/2)
..saying she wanted to be in the room where baby C was as it "would help her wellbeing - to see a living baby in the space previously occupied by a dead baby" (the recently deceased baby A who Lucy Letby is also accused of murdering)

Court hears that Lucy Letby also texted her friend that night referring to an image of baby A that she had in her head from the week before and then “sleep well xx"
Prosn:LL was the only person there when baby C collapsed – just as she had been with baby A and one of 2 there when baby B collapsed. She had no clear reason for being in the room, and she should have been closely watching another baby having already been told off for not doing
Source BBC's

https://twitter.com/x/status/1579781368338604032

 

[merrypason]

I can completely relate. I dealt with particularly unpleasant suicide in a house.

For years I connected the scene with that particular style of house, which triggered the image each time I saw such a style of house, so I avoided them.

LL couldn't avoid that room in her workplace. She may have had the insight to realise that facing her negative feelings head on was the way to overcome them.

I'm not sure leaving your patient unattended (we were told her shift supervisor said she was not to leave the child in her room as it was a critical case) to seek solace in another room is at all an acceptable way of dealing with trauma! And she was assigned to her patient and not the other as we were told the other nurse was less qualified so was given the more stable patient. Defying your shift leader's orders to do your own thing would be worthy of a reprimand at the best of times. There are off duty ways to deal with trauma that don't impact your day to day workings. On duty, her only concern should have been for patient safety and well being and following the duties assigned to support it. Protocols exist for a reason. Can you imagine if her own patient had collapsed and died while she was away in another room, not following instructions and advice? That on its own would have caused her and the hospital claims of negligence by the family. Also - this can't have been her first baby death - she wasn't a newbie nurse, she was the second senior most on that ward.

The impression I had from all the comments made by her friends and family is that she was hard working, and dedicated to the job. So i assumed it meant she was also meticulous, maintained a tight shift and was a stickler for protocol especially around patient care and safety. I have been surprised tbh that the evidence is showing a pattern of:

1. Disobeying orders and doing her own thing for personal reasons on more than one occassion
2. Not documenting or flagging quite critical things and risks (the episode with the mum and her notes, not asking for the bags to be checked like she claimed she had to the police, taking home someone else's handover sheet, ignoring SHO advice to do a feed)
3. Some dubious behaviour (whatever my own feelings on the FB search I do think it wrong to track a grieving family you've met through work - as a patient myself I'd feel violated. Can you imagine if it was a male doctor tracking a vulnerable female patients??). Also texting off duty colleagues to discuss your patient - that can't be right. I wouldn't want someone texting details of my medical history/case to their mate! What's the point of confidentiality and GDPR then if my medical history can be on text...
4. Unless the defence can prove otherwise - she didn't make any formal escalations or requests for process reviews/equipment reviews/tests etc at any point given the number of deaths she witnessed? That is really surprising to me. As a medical professional, surely you feel concern when the number of deaths in your care is increasing and you try and understand why.

Even without this case, I think her behaviour needed a reprimand. She was a senior nurse on that ward - experienced enough to know the risks of doing these things, and also knowing she needs to set an example for the junior nurses. In any other job, she would have been pulled up and her performance scrutinised and most other jobs don't involve the life and death of babies. I'm surprised she wasn't concerned how it would look on her own performance and record, particularly as she wasn't being very meticulous and things were slipping.

I know the prosecution spoke to her previous hospitals so it will be interesting to see if there was a change in her behaviour/performance that year. It does feel like she had either switched off from work to an extent, was disillusioned or thought she was beyond reproach.

MOO

 

[Bakers]

Detective Chief Inspector - Op Hummingbird - Cheshire Police

ID: 697. Title: Detective Chief Inspector - Op Hummingbird. Location: Chester. Closing Date: 12/06/2022, 23:55. Salary: £58,332 - £60,732

cheshirepolice.tal.net

 

[shadowdancer]

My point is that the document has been wrongly described here, and that will mislead some readers if not corrected.
I really can't see why you want to argue about it.

I am not arguing??

 

[bringmeacupoft]

I'm not sure leaving your patient unattended (we were told her shift supervisor said she was not to leave the child in her room as it was a critical case) to seek solace in another room is at all an acceptable way of dealing with trauma! And she was assigned to her patient and not the other as we were told the other nurse was less qualified so was given the more stable patient. Defying your shift leader's orders to do your own thing would be worthy of a reprimand at the best of times. There are off duty ways to deal with trauma that don't impact your day to day workings. On duty, her only concern should have been for patient safety and well being and following the duties assigned to support it. Protocols exist for a reason. Can you imagine if her own patient had collapsed and died while she was away in another room, not following instructions and advice? That on its own would have caused her and the hospital claims of negligence by the family. Also - this can't have been her first baby death - she wasn't a newbie nurse, she was the second senior most on that ward.

The impression I had from all the comments made by her friends and family is that she was hard working, and dedicated to the job. So i assumed it meant she was also meticulous, maintained a tight shift and was a stickler for protocol especially around patient care and safety. I have been surprised tbh that the evidence is showing a pattern of:

1. Disobeying orders and doing her own thing for personal reasons on more than one occassion
2. Not documenting or flagging quite critical things and risks (the episode with the mum and her notes, not asking for the bags to be checked like she claimed she had to the police, taking home someone else's handover sheet, ignoring SHO advice to do a feed)
3. Some dubious behaviour (whatever my own feelings on the FB search I do think it wrong to track a grieving family you've met through work - as a patient myself I'd feel violated. Can you imagine if it was a male doctor tracking a vulnerable female patients??)
4. Unless the defence can prove otherwise - she didn't make any formal escalations or requests for process reviews/equipment reviews/tests etc at any point given the number of deaths she witnessed? That is really surprising to me. As a medical professional, surely you feel concern when the number of deaths in your care is increasing and you try and understand why.

Even without this case, I think her behaviour needed a reprimand. She was a senior nurse on that ward - experienced enough to know the risks of doing these things, and also knowing she needs to set an example for the junior nurses. In any other job, she would have been pulled up and her performance scrutinised and most other jobs don't involve the life and death of babies. I'm surprised she wasn't concerned how it would look on her own performance and record, particularly as she wasn't being very meticulous and things were slipping.

I know the prosecution spoke to her previous hospitals so it will be interesting to see if there was a change in her behaviour/performance that year. It does feel like she had either switched off from work to an extent, was disillusioned or thought she was beyond reproach.

Point well put I came here to do the same, I guess the evidence will further stack up in line with that the further into the court case we go.

 

[kittythehare]

I'm not sure leaving your patient unattended (we were told her shift supervisor said she was not to leave the child in her room as it was a critical case) to seek solace in another room is at all an acceptable way of dealing with trauma! And she was assigned to her patient and not the other as we were told the other nurse was less qualified so was given the more stable patient. Defying your shift leader's orders to do your own thing would be worthy of a reprimand at the best of times. There are off duty ways to deal with trauma that don't impact your day to day workings. On duty, her only concern should have been for patient safety and well being and following the duties assigned to support it. Protocols exist for a reason. Can you imagine if her own patient had collapsed and died while she was away in another room, not following instructions and advice? That on its own would have caused her and the hospital claims of negligence by the family. Also - this can't have been her first baby death - she wasn't a newbie nurse, she was the second senior most on that ward.

The impression I had from all the comments made by her friends and family is that she was hard working, and dedicated to the job. So i assumed it meant she was also meticulous, maintained a tight shift and was a stickler for protocol especially around patient care and safety. I have been surprised tbh that the evidence is showing a pattern of:

1. Disobeying orders and doing her own thing for personal reasons on more than one occassion
2. Not documenting or flagging quite critical things and risks (the episode with the mum and her notes, not asking for the bags to be checked like she claimed she had to the police, taking home someone else's handover sheet, ignoring SHO advice to do a feed)
3. Some dubious behaviour (whatever my own feelings on the FB search I do think it wrong to track a grieving family you've met through work - as a patient myself I'd feel violated. Can you imagine if it was a male doctor tracking a vulnerable female patients??)
4. Unless the defence can prove otherwise - she didn't make any formal escalations or requests for process reviews/equipment reviews/tests etc at any point given the number of deaths she witnessed? That is really surprising to me. As a medical professional, surely you feel concern when the number of deaths in your care is increasing and you try and understand why.

Even without this case, I think her behaviour needed a reprimand. She was a senior nurse on that ward - experienced enough to know the risks of doing these things, and also knowing she needs to set an example for the junior nurses. In any other job, she would have been pulled up and her performance scrutinised and most other jobs don't involve the life and death of babies. I'm surprised she wasn't concerned how it would look on her own performance and record, particularly as she wasn't being very meticulous and things were slipping.

I know the prosecution spoke to her previous hospitals so it will be interesting to see if there was a change in her behaviour/performance that year. It does feel like she had either switched off from work to an extent, was disillusioned or thought she was beyond reproach.

From what I know, I fully agree.

 

[merrypason]

You say “multiple similar unusual incidents”. Multiple, yes; unusual: some do show some peculiar feature (interpreted as sinister by the prosecution) but otherwise not really unusual at all. Patients who appear to be doing well do occasionally take a surprising turn for the worst! Similar: no! I’m reminded of Lucia de Berk, who used (according to the board of three judges who convicted her) a stunning variety of methods to kill, some of them still unknown; the judges interpreted this as showing how evil and cunning she was. The main evidence was a digoxin finding, now discredited, together with seemingly weird (but explainable) things she wrote in her diary, and some lies in her application form to go to nursing school. LL, about multiple: some are repeated incidents with the same baby, or members of the same premature triplet. (Same with Lucia de Berk).

Just to say this case is not the same as Lucia.For one, this is a highly restricted ward with access controlled by IDs, where not anyone can walk in. The Lucia case had a lot of errors on who was where, and her whereabouts being documented wrong. Here, it was normally just her attending to a baby or caring for them just before they died - none of which she has denied. Statistics have not been mentioned in this case (yet). What has been mentioned is that for a majority of deaths in a ward, only one person was present and attending to the patient - which is a perfectly reasonable thing to be concerned about in any setting. Exception reporting is followed in every industry to flag performance and outcomes of PEOPLE separate to the norm.

The reviews were not done by a cohort of hospital staff and friends either, like in the Lucia case. Also, LL was moved off clinical duties before any reviews were completed because there were already concerns about her performance/negligence/whatever it was. The case didn't witch hunt her based on stats about cases - but her own individual performance as a nurse. There's a lot of assumptions that it may have been equipment failures, process errors etc EXCEPT she never flagged any tests/failures to be investigated, was the only person with these patients attending to them and they had excess or unneccessary doses of things not documented in their notes or requested by a Consultant. Her medical notes missed quite critical things as well. This is not personal diaries - this is her medical notes and her performance at work.

For every Lucia there is also a Beverley Ailitt.

MOO