UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #22

[Sweeper2000]

radiologist

I didn’t think a “bubble” was accurate wording there, very misleading to suggest a collection of air seen after scans is the same as a bubble in the veins. Very different imo. Really different from the globules found.

 

[ColourPurple]

Speaking from experience on both sides of this situation (as bereaved parent, and as nurse assisting bereaved parents), it should be entirely the parent's choice. The checklist should be available to be sure that all the same things are offered to families, to make things equitable and consistent, but it would be inappropriate to follow it rigidly without respect to differences between families. The appropriateness depends on things being handled sensitively and respectfully towards the family. In some cases where a death is anticipated, some parents find it meaningful to take footprints and handprints themselves, or have the nurse take the prints, from their living baby, just as you would for any newborn. The nurse will be their assistant as they do these things, steadying the baby's hand or foot, getting the paper and ink, providing bathing supplies, and so forth. In other cases, it will be done after death, again, sometimes by the parents themselves, if that is what they prefer, or sometimes by a nurse. It is a best practice not to take anything away from the parents that they might want to do themselves. The nurse should fade into the background and appear only when something is needed.

With all that said, I don't think there's any evidence that if LL was taking footprints or making a memory box before the baby had died, that it was out of respect for the parent's wishes.

That's interesting . Thanks. If what the father described as a "ventilated basket" is a cold cot, I assume that wouldn't be offered at all while the baby is still alive?

 

[Becky53]

I can do that.

Update or repair puncture?

Thankyou. x

 

[Penny68]

12:39

Letby denies falsifying paperwork​

The court sees Lucy Letby's writing recorded on nursing records for a different baby, at the time that baby D collapsed.
Nick Johnson KC asks: "Were you really doing that as baby D was collapsing?"
Letby says: "I can’t give a definitive time."
Johnson continues: "Or have you tried to make the paperwork look like you were doing something else at the time of baby D’s collapse?"
Letby denies this, saying: "No, I’ve not falsified any paperwork."
Johnson asks for clarification: "Ever?"
She says "no", to which Johnson replies: "Well, we’ll come to that."
The prosecutor then says: "Baby D died because you injected her with air, didn't you?" Letby again says: "No."
Johnson adds: "Did you think that the paperwork wouldn’t tie you to baby D at the time of her collapse?"
Letby replies that she was looking after other babies too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65602988

I had been thinking on that too, along with was she possibly making all the calls she made, and texting, to make it look she was not doing anything untoward to the babies at those times.

 

[Tortoise]

I didn’t think a “bubble” was accurate wording there, very misleading to suggest a collection of air seen after scans is the same as a bubble in the veins. Very different imo.

It was in a blood vessel on the x-rays.

 

[Tortoise]

Gosh they're still late.

 

[Sweeper2000]

It was in a blood vessel on the x-rays.

Is that the catheter tip? Was it excluded from potential post mortem processes?

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

That's interesting . Thanks. If what the father described as a "ventilated basket" is a cold cot, I assume that wouldn't be offered at all while the baby is still alive?

I have never heard of that being done and would see no reason for it. What an awful thing to do for both the baby, who will be most comfortable being held, and for the parents, who will want to hold their baby! I was horrified reading the father's account. It was very obviously inappropriate behavior on the part of the nurse.

 

[Officer Dibble]

'You were enjoying it, weren't you?'​

"What useful contribution were you making for this family?" Mr Johnson asks Lucy Letby, referring to the family of Child C.
A colleague of Letby has said they had to keep pulling her away from the family as the child was dying.
Letby says she cannot recall what she was doing at the time Child C lay dying in his mother's arms, but says she may have been helping a colleague with mementoes for the family - including taking the hand and footprints of Child C.
"I would have to check the charts to see if there was anything I co-signed at that time," she says.
"You were enjoying what was going on, weren't you, Lucy Letby," says Mr Johnson.
"No."
She is then asked if she enjoyed seeing her colleague upset - her colleague had been questioning if it was her fault.
"No."
He then moves on to the case of Child D.

Lucy Letby trial: Facebook searches of nurse accused of murdering babies read out in court

Lucy Letby, a former neonatal nurse, has been back in court for another day of cross-examination by the prosecution on Friday. She is accused of the murder of seven babies and the attempted murder of 10 others, and denies all the charges.

news.sky.com

This part - BBM: "
"What useful contribution were you making for this family?" Mr Johnson asks Lucy Letby, referring to the family of Child C.
A colleague of Letby has said they had to keep pulling her away from the family as the child was dying."

 

[Tortoise]

Is that the catheter tip? Was it excluded from potential post mortem processes?

Professor Arthurs says "air is present" on what the court hears is the 'main highway' of the circulation.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, November 11

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Which cases do you think are too weak to have been charged? I am sincerely curious.

The ones I think are weak are baby c, d, h, and k.

Baby C is weak (and IMO weakens all the air embolism cases by being included in the charges) because of the situation with Dr Evans writing seven reports saying the baby was given an air embolis on 12th June 2015, and then changing his mind in the eighth report to say that in fact that was CPAP belly and the air embolism happened a day or so later. That to me gives a huge advantage to the defence because they can now say that Doctor Evans is not as good at accurately identifying and diagnosing air embolus as we are being led to believe and baby C is the proof. And then the defence can use this material to argue that Dr Evans’ opinions on all the air emboli cases should be disregarded because he can’t accurately diagnose them.

And then when you add in the fact that LL wasn’t on duty for the 12th June event, it makes it look even more suspicious that he has changed his opinion on the date the AE was allegedly given to a date when she was on shift - which hands the defence material to argue that he is changing his view in order to fit the evidence against LL.

So if they hadn’t included baby C in the charges, then Myers would no doubt still argue that Dr Evans isn’t reliable and changes his evidence, but he wouldn’t have the actual proof of that in the form of child C to refer to.

I also think baby F is a now a weak case, and as I said in an earlier post, I think it could potentially jeopardise all the other cases, but the reason it is weak is because the prosecution did not immediately get up and stamp all over the idea of the second TPN bag and just acknowledge that the hospital probably didn’t change the bag even though it was supposed to. If the prosecution had played things differently, then baby F is a strong case.

All in my humble opinion, of course.

 

[Tortoise]

2:41pm

Legal teams and members of the public and press have now returned to court.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 19 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

What about Lucy Letby?

 

[Officer Dibble]

Re. the incorrect phone call, this is from Tattle - I wonder if it's accurate?

'Dr. Thomas also recalled her then colleague Dr Andrew Brunton, who was leading resuscitation efforts, being "mortified" when a mix-up led to the mother of Child A, also allegedly killed by Ms Letby, being contacted on the phone instead of a consultant.
Dr Brunton had wanted to speak to senior colleague Dr Elizabeth Newby for advice on the resuscitation of Child D.
Dr Thomas said Dr Brunton was "shocked" when he realised the error that had been made.
The call would have been made to Child A's mother in the early hours of the morning, just two weeks after the death of her baby.'

Probably irrelevant, but if the intended recipient was a consultant I do wonder how these 2 phone numbers could possibly have got mixed up.

Are you suggesting, perhaps a nurse gave him the phone number? JMO MOO

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Clearly this case is about far more than shift data and door swipes! You'd think there hadn't been any other evidence about her, the way some are viewing the fact that she has now been shown to come in when she's not on shift without it showing on the door logs, meaning others could have done the same. Most of these events happened at 1am or in the wee hours of the morning.

Nursing notes, charts and treatments signed, her texts about the babies, LL being seen there, patterns such as people leaving and LL being around, her interactions with the parents, her own admissions that it always happens to her, consultants noticing the association, and the biggest of all, the suspicious events charged all being when LL is on shift without the expert who reviewed the medical records knowing this.

JMO

Genuine question, (and I am not trying to be antagonistic or argumentative, I am just genuinely curious), but are there any charges or parts of the prosecution’s evidence which you think are weak? And do you think the defence has made any strong points so far?

 

[Sweeper2000]

I was wondering if anyone with experience in following this kind of thing could say if this is a particularly complex case? There’s so many ifs and buts when it comes to the evidence let alone the volume.

I think its probably more complex than the average murder case ie stab wounds, blunt force trauma etc but im Curious to know if it’s more evidentially complex?

 

[Tortoise]

Genuine question, (and I am not trying to be antagonistic or argumentative, I am just genuinely curious), but are there any charges or parts of the prosecution’s evidence which you think are weak? And do you think the defence has made any strong points so far?

I'll have a think about it when court is over.

 

[Legal]

No defendant and no jury?

 

[Tortoise]

Are you suggesting, perhaps a nurse gave him the phone number? JMO MOO

I think he would have been handed a phone already connected, because he was dealing with the baby.

 

[Tortoise]

2:50pm

The judge, Mr Justice James Goss, has entered the courtroom.
The judge is informing members of the jury the trial will not resume today. He says the adjournment is for reasons that should not concern them.
The next day the trial will be held, as planned, will be Wednesday, May 24.
Members of the jury are being reminded not to conduct independent research or communicate with anyone involved in the case.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 19 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Sundial]

I received my sons “memory box” when I signed his death certificate several days later (I say memory box, it was hand and footprints and some hair).

He had come into a&e by ambulance and resus didn’t work (was probably about an hour in total). After they stopped resus they gave him straight to me, and I was allowed him for as long as I wanted. There was no rush for a cold cot or to preserve him. No one was hovering or trying to get his handprints. I think the only thing they said to me was that they would need someone to look at his eyes within a few hours as eyes are something that does start changing very soon after death. When they did that, a nurse held him, I was present. I think I was with him for 6-8 hours post death before I went home? As he was an unexpected infant death he was automatically supposed to have a post-mortem, so at that time that’s what we were expecting.

For a baby who has spent 5 hours dying and who’s heart stops in his mothers arms, there’s no reason at all I can think of that they would need the baby to be in a cold cot immediately, post mortem or not. And as far as I’m concerned there’s no reason to do any hand or footprints, surely they could be done before admitting to the mortuary? From my limited knowledge I actually assumed all babies were carried to the mortuary by someone as well opposed to being wheeled. I wonder who did that for all of these cases.

I’m really sorry to hear about this and your loss. I can’t imagine how that must have been for you.