UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #23

[katydid23]

Yes I wasn’t referring so much to methods to kill but maybe searches for people who have been convicted of similar offences such as Beverly allit or Harold shipman or maybe even something as obvious as Nurses who kill, just something to indicate this was the path she was heading down.

People may say she wouldn’t be so stupid as to search the above but she openly searched for the parents of children she cared for (possibly for sick reasons) kept the notes she wrote and also the handover sheets (possibly as trophies) so I find it odd there isn’t anything more incriminating even circumstantially speaking on her phone or computer.

All based on her actually being found guilty of course.

She wouldn't need to google BA, as there are a lot of tv shows, documentaries and magazine articles and books written all about her deeds.

I have read a lot about her lately and it is uncanny the similarities between them. Quite striking.

 

[katydid23]

My post was talking about Dr V adjusting the chest drain , not the desats. Dr V’s own notes say she adjusted the chest drain at 2350. Thats different to being told by LL that the baby had already had desats earlier in the evening (which I agree Dr V doesn’t say she witnessed).

Dr V says she was there at 2350. The father says he left about midnight. I agree, maybe he had in fact already left by the time Dr V appeared, meaning that he left before 2350. Or maybe when he was questioned a few years later about the evening, he got his times wrong or didn’t remember a doctor visiting to adjust the chest drain. Both would be perfectly understandable explanations IMO .

But I think it is important for us also to acknowledge that when LL says she remembers something and her memory is either lacking a particular detail , or the times she remembers are off, people seem to jump all over that as evidence of her alleged guilt and deception.

I think we need to be fair and consistent in relation to what we expect of all concerned when it comes to the accuracy of their memories , including the timings , and we need to be fair and consistent in relation to what we are willing to tolerate with regards to examples where the memories stated by a person deviates in some way from other people say / what the records say.

The difference between the father and nurse L is that the father wasn't being paid to keep accurate records of what went on in the baby's nursery. We expect that LL would have an accurate account so that she wouldn't need to rely upon her memory.

Her memory of events should not be deviating from her notes or other's notes. JMO

As for the father's memory, I don't think he necessarily misremembered anything. He was accurate when he said there was no collapse that night, IMO. And he probably had just left as Dr V came to look at the chest drain. JMO

 

[notsure]

She wouldn't need to google BA, as there are a lot of tv shows, documentaries and magazine articles and books written all about her deeds.

I have read a lot about her lately and it is uncanny the similarities between them. Quite striking.

If you look for things, you will find them. That's the way the human mind works.

 

[Tortoise]

I don't think I've seen anyone jumping all over LL for having a poor memory. People here are in the main reasonable, IMO. It's a little hard to believe though that her memory has improved since her police interviews in several respects. However, it's the forensic review of the medical records and discrepancies contained within them, and the patterns, and her explanations, which are raising eyebrows, IMO.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Thew difference between the father and nurse L is that the father wasn't being paid to keep accurate records of what went on in his baby's nursery. We expect that LL would have an accurate account so that she wouldn't need to rely upon her memory.

Her memory of events should not be deviating from her notes or other's notes. JMO

I think that is a dangerous argument.

LL is far from the only one who has made imperfect medical records in this case.

Dr J was also being paid (and paid considerably more than a nurse at that ) to keep accurate records . And yet he said that baby K was sedated with morphine and so couldn’t dislodge the breathing tube, which was shown in court to be untrue. And he recorded that he had inserted a chest drain into a particular rib space for a baby (baby H, I believe ) and that was also shown to be untrue in court.

We cannot IMO have different standards for LL and then everyone else in this trial . If she is going to be found guilty , it should be on the basis that she is being treated the same as everyone else. Otherwise, the conviction will be unsafe IMO.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I don't think I've seen anyone jumping all over LL for having a poor memory. People here are in the main reasonable, IMO. It's a little hard to believe though that her memory has improved since her police interviews in several respects. However, it's the forensic review of the medical records and discrepancies contained within them, and the patterns, and her explanations, which are raising eyebrows, IMO.

It would be interesting to know exactly what records or evidence was shown to LL during her interviews with police. It is common for police to provide limited disclosure to the solicitor prior to the interview .

I don’t see a problem with her changing memory in certain respects. For example , she had a memory of a baby when the baby was on the ward and for a few months afterwards. Then that memory could fade (like any memory ) and when she is interviewed 2 or 3 years later , she can’t recall that baby .

I can see a plausible situation where once she got complete disclosure of evidence and records through her legal team after she had been charged , there were documents which helped her remember certain events. I think she said that in a police interview , she couldn’t recall a particular baby , but later, after being told which other babies were in her room that night (and she remembered those babies), she was able to recall the baby in question by association.

 

[Tortoise]

It would be interesting to know exactly what records or evidence was shown to LL during her interviews with police. It is common for police to provide limited disclosure to the solicitor prior to the interview .

I don’t see a problem with her changing memory in certain respects. For example , she had a memory of a baby when the baby was on the ward and for a few months afterwards. Then that memory could fade (like any memory ) and when she is interviewed 2 or 3 years later , she can’t recall that baby .

I can see a plausible situation where once she got complete disclosure of evidence and records through her legal team after she had been charged , there were documents which helped her remember certain events. I think she said that in a police interview , she couldn’t recall a particular baby , but later, after being told which other babies were in her room that night (and she remembered those babies), she was able to recall the baby in question by association.

My read of the evidence is that she remembers the shift very well.

"Letby says colleague Sophie Ellis was the least experienced member of staff on that shift and "did not have the skills for the job" of looking after small, premature babies in room 1.
"I did not think she was qualified for the job...She did not have the skills for the premature babies [in room 1]."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 18 - prosecution cross-examines Letby

Letby is asked why she can now confirm she was in room 3 of the nursery, having not been able to remember to that in police interview. Letby says she was able to remember being in nursery room 3 after since being made aware of which babies were in room 3 that night.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, May 5 - defence continues

It doesn't sound feasible (to me) that she remembers where she was for the reason she has given, because she agrees in cross-examination that she wasn't in room 3, her colleague was doing the feed for her, and LL was texting JJ-K.

"Letby is asked why she let a band 4 nursery nurse look after her designated baby.
Letby says it's "not unusual" for band 4 nurses to assist her in her duties.
LL: "I have no memory of that".
NJ: "Did you have something better to do?"
LL: "No."
Mr Johnson says the text at 11.01pm sent by Letby to Jennifer Jones-Key meant she must not have been in a clinical area, and would not have had time to feed her designated baby in room 3.
LL: "I can't answer that."
Mr Johnson says it took her out of the nursing area. Letby said she would have been "in the doorway" of the unit."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 19 - cross-examination continues

 

[katydid23]

It would be interesting to know exactly what records or evidence was shown to LL during her interviews with police. It is common for police to provide limited disclosure to the solicitor prior to the interview .

I don’t see a problem with her changing memory in certain respects. For example , she had a memory of a baby when the baby was on the ward and for a few months afterwards. Then that memory could fade (like any memory ) and when she is interviewed 2 or 3 years later , she can’t recall that baby .

I can see a plausible situation where once she got complete disclosure of evidence and records through her legal team after she had been charged , there were documents which helped her remember certain events. I think she said that in a police interview , she couldn’t recall a particular baby , but later, after being told which other babies were in her room that night (and she remembered those babies), she was able to recall the baby in question by association.

What about some of the circumstantial evidence that is come out, concerning her connection to the collapses?

Does it seem too coincidental that were was a collapse the night before she left on her 8 day vacation----no collapses during her absence---and then the very day she returns, there are THREE unexplained collapses, three nights in a row---to 3 babies that were considered healthy and stable right before hand. I find it shocking and too hard to ignore.

Those are the kinds of things that are unsettling and hard to believe. And that is the backdrop which I use when calling her out on her memory lapses and odd note taking.

Sure, as you said, there were documents which helped her remember certain events. But she also seemed to try to change certain events around, to make them seem less incriminating. IMO

 

[Legal]

I don't think she googled anything incriminating because she knew already how to harm a vulnerable fragile newborn. Who doesn't?

And she was experimenting, if guilty, because it was all hit and miss. She kept cfhanging things up, trying this and that, so it shows that she didn't really have an exact plan. JMO

She may have searched for things that haven't been allowed in evidence because they were deemed too prejudicial. For example, Vincent Tabak who was found guilty of murdering Joanna Yeates, was found to have videos of women being strangled on his computers but this only came out after his conviction. JMO

 

[marynnu]

If you look for things, you will find them. That's the way the human mind works.

On that basis you might as well say there is no point the police investigating anything. I am sure they are well aware of the risks. And medical staff are highly aware of confirmation bias in research and the need not to make assumptions in diagnosis, so I doubt they were confused.

 

[esther43]

She wouldn't need to google BA, as there are a lot of tv shows, documentaries and magazine articles and books written all about her deeds.

I have read a lot BA lately and it is uncanny the similarities between them. Quite striking.

Completely agree, the similarities to BA are uncanny.Though LL seems different to BA in her social presentation they had a remarkable number of things in common.
- They were both young when they 'started out'
- They both used mixed methods
- They both appeared very family centred
- They both had a 'spread sparkles where ever you go' outlook on life and appeared overly generous.
- They both enjoyed appearing 'superior' to the police and acting as though they knew more because of their esteemed positions in the NHS
- They both appeared confident and unwavering.
-They both hid things. (Alit used to hide keys, LL allegedly hid the resus drugs calculations sheet)
-They both kept handover sheets in their home
- They both had 'god daughters' and were seen as trusted public figures

In both cases, the neighbouring hospitals became involved due to rising concerns and in both cases they constructed a rota looking at all the instances and in both cases LL and BA were the one common staff member.

 

[marynnu]

EDIT Fell into the insulin cases trap, never thought I'd do that! Obviously they survived. Duh. Post amended.

Just let me get this straight. Is it being claimed that 5 of the 7 alledged murders took place shortly after the parents left the unit? That's quite staggering to me.

 

[Kemug]

My goodness, I really hope I never have to remember what I did way back in 2016, especially when all my future depends on it!

 

[katydid23]

My goodness, I really hope I never have to remember what I did way back in 2016, especially when all my future depends on it!

LL is being questioned about her work shifts, in which she had her detailed work notes and observations. Those notes were direct explanations of how she was spending her time at work.

Plus she had many texts and FB messages which she sent throughout her shifts, which could fill in a lot of blanks.

 

[esther43]

My goodness, I really hope I never have to remember what I did way back in 2016, especially when all my future depends on it!

But she does seem to remember the tiny details which would potentially clear her of charges, like what cast of light was in the room, the particular colour of rashes, specifically what type of bile was in the aspirate and these sorts of things..
For me, she just hadn't been able to offer any 'builds' on anything that makes you think 'innocent'
She hasn't even remotely entertained the idea that someone else may have killed them. I wonder why that is.

 

[Enquirer-2019]

She wouldn't need to google BA, as there are a lot of tv shows, documentaries and magazine articles and books written all about her deeds.

I have read a lot about her lately and it is uncanny the similarities between them. Quite striking.

The problem with making comparisons between a defendant on trial and characters in TV shows/ books etc. is that our reasoning can be distorted by subconscious biases. Such as, the representative heuristic and conjunctive fallacy.

Whereby, we estimate an event as likely by comparing to a prototype (e.g.,in our mind); assign a higher probability that such events occurred by overestimating similarities whilst ignoring base-rate information.

 

[esther43]

The problem with making comparisons between a defendant on trial and characters in TV shows/ books etc. is that our reasoning can be distorted by subconscious biases. Such as, the representative heuristic and conjunctive fallacy.

Whereby, we estimate an event as likely by comparing to a prototype (e.g.,in our mind); assign a higher probability that such events occurred by overestimating similarities whilst ignoring base-rate information.

Which base rate information do you feel is being disregarded?

 

[Enquirer-2019]

The difference between the father and nurse L is that the father wasn't being paid to keep accurate records of what went on in the baby's nursery. We expect that LL would have an accurate account so that she wouldn't need to rely upon her memory.

Her memory of events should not be deviating from her notes or other's notes. JMO

As for the father's memory, I don't think he necessarily misremembered anything. He was accurate when he said there was no collapse that night, IMO. And he probably had just left as Dr V came to look at the chest drain. JMO

JMOO

I think that her note taking was impacted by a variety of factors which she previously testified about.

Including, staffing shortages (e.g., particularly an apparent lack of doctors on the ward); a peak in neonatal collapses requiring BLS etc.; feeling concerned (i.e., perceptual) that some colleagues lacked experience, so performed additional checks on babies she wasn’t designated; attending to family members of deteriorating babies etc.

These would all add additional time pressures to an already tight nursing schedule, including the ability to accurately document notes. And, we also heard how she tried (i.e., apparently) to catch up with incomplete nursing notes, by attending outside her designated hours.

Indeed, in some of the above scenarios she should have sought help and advice from a senior instead of going beyond her designated duties, and outside of her working hours.

Notwithstanding, she did try reaching out to her mentor (e.g., texting Dr V at some points), and discussed submitting a datex. Which IMO demonstrates that she was aware that she was struggling, and was trying to get additional support. However, IMO she should have spoken formally with seniors by requesting a meeting, and/ or sent emails as opposed to informal methods such as texting.

IMO - I think her biggest mistake in the above scenarios was that she was trying too hard… to be perfect (i.e., d/t an array of possible reasons). Thus, she got overly involved in matters above her defined role (e.g., as a band 5 nurse). Consequently, seemed to be everywhere she shouldn’t have been and attracted extra attention.

JMOO.

 

[Enquirer-2019]

I don't think I've seen anyone jumping all over LL for having a poor memory. People here are in the main reasonable, IMO. It's a little hard to believe though that her memory has improved since her police interviews in several respects. However, it's the forensic review of the medical records and discrepancies contained within them, and the patterns, and her explanations, which are raising eyebrows, IMO.

Stress alone can have an incredibly adverse impact on cognition inc. memory recall; not to mention the impact of emotional and mental health problems.

 

[Dotta]

JMOO

I think that her note taking was impacted by a variety of factors which she previously testified about.

Including, staffing shortages (e.g., particularly an apparent lack of doctors on the ward); a peak in neonatal collapses requiring BLS etc.; feeling concerned (i.e., perceptual) that some colleagues lacked experience, so performed additional checks on babies she wasn’t designated; attending to family members of deteriorating babies etc.

These would all add additional time pressures to an already tight nursing schedule, including the ability to accurately document notes. And, we also heard how she tried (i.e., apparently) to catch up with incomplete nursing notes, by attending outside her designated hours.

Indeed, in some of the above scenarios she should have sought help and advice from a senior instead of going beyond her designated duties, and outside of her working hours.

Notwithstanding, she did try reaching out to her mentor (e.g., texting Dr V at some points), and discussed submitting a datex. Which IMO demonstrates that she was aware that she was struggling, and was trying to get additional support. However, IMO she should have spoken formally with seniors by requesting a meeting, and/ or sent emails as opposed to informal methods such as texting.

IMO - I think her biggest mistake in the above scenarios was that she was trying too hard… to be perfect (i.e., d/t an array of possible reasons). Thus, she got overly involved in matters above her defined role (e.g., as a band 5 nurse). Consequently, seemed to be everywhere she shouldn’t have been and attracted extra attention.

JMOO.

I have a question.

Where was a head nurse in this ward,
who was she and
why didn't she address the problems you mentioned?

Why would LL as a regular nurse shoulder this burden herself?

What kind of work culture was this?

PS
If LL devoted time to write proper notes instead of texting madly on her phone - I'm sure there would be no need to come after work to complete documents.

JMO