UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #23

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It was compelling testimony, because he seemed to recall the exact feelings and thoughts he had at that time and described them vividly, almost like a scene from a tv drama. I didn't realise LL was disputing it. Did she say she wasn't there at that point?

Not in her police interview, but if this is to be trusted under cross-examination she is placing herself elsewhere:

 
There really is no other explanation as far as I can see. But it seems to me that it's counter-productive on her part.
I think it’s her only option at this point, if she’s going for the conspiracy angle. She either admits to what Dr J saw as being true and completely undermines her whole defence strategy and basically admits that Dr J witnessed her trying to harm a baby, or denies and deflects, contradicting her police interviews but trying her best to give weight to the conspiracy defence she’s attempting to put forward. She can say ‘I don’t recall’ but then all that does is make us think that Dr J can recall. So by denying it happening completely she’s leaving it up to the jurors to decide who to believe. NJ has made sure to let the jury know she’s contradicting her previous statements, that Dr J has no reason to lie, that it’s not some big conspiracy against LL because what about the babies she agrees we’re poisoned with insulin. There are 22 charges she’s facing not 3 or 4 but 22. Is she trying to say that someone purposely poisoned 2 children to set her up? Because we know that definitely happened. We also know there’s evidence of air embolism on X-rays and scans, which has been testified to by medical experts to a reasonable degree of certainty in most cases.

The sheer amount of charges is not a coincidence IMO, it’s not a conspiracy because it took so long for the alarm to be raised. If someone was conspiring against LL then I expect the police would have been called much sooner. If the ‘gang of 4’ wanted to set her up, all they had to do was call the police at any time.

Unfortunately they didn’t want to believe that a nurse could be harming and killing babies she was meant to care for. Especially not ‘nice Lucy’ with her meek and mild appearance, slim, blonde hair and half decent looks, sweet smile, supposedly intelligent, competent and devoted to her job (IMO the exact image she tried so hard to portray) They wanted to believe it was just tragic coincidence, until babies O P and Q caused them to realise that there was no way it could just be coincidence.

Had LL not looked the way she did, I believe everyone would have become suspicious much sooner. I know we shouldn’t judge solely on looks but from earlier pages of this thread before trial, there were many who refused to believe that LL could be capable of this just based off the way she looked in the photos released by the media. So I could believe that her colleagues felt the same. IMO she used her innocent appearance to betray everyone around her. JMO but she been overweight, with greasy hair, bad skin, a scowling face and rude bedside manner, everyone would have been out with their pitch forks right from the start.

All MOO
 
The expert testimonies have come from medical persons who have been hired. They have no personal stake in whatever they produce with their reports. They don’t know any of the people involved in the case or the babies. They’ve simply read what they’ve been given and made a conclusion on the cause of death. There’s not exactly a need for self preservation in a situation that has nothing to do with them?

I also think if there were experts who could credibly give a different opinion, the defence would have them. I don’t think they do because I don’t think it’s possible for any medical expert to be able to truthfully say an air embolism isn’t possible. Meaning any medical expert, while they may be able to offer an alternate opinion, cannot rule out what has already been put forward.
I was referring to the doctors whos statements have changed, and later evolved to seemingly merge, as opposed to the independent experts specifically. I should have made that clearer.

That said, I absolutely agree that the prosecution need to bring in expert witnesses of their own, to validate their claims that the evidence in some cases points to alternative explanations.

E.g., child-D’s case of an apparent systemic infection, who did not receive antibiotics. Alongside, child C’s infection, req. for O2 via CPAP, and accumulation of air in his abdomen on 12 th June (e.g., when LL was ‘not’ at work), but yet was considered to be ‘stable’ - that is the prosecutions experts claim until LL arrived the following day. Not to mention the case of the TPN bag contaminated with insulin put up, when LL was yet again on her day off.

Thus, I hope the defence produce alternative expert viewpoints - Since, whilst there were clearly serious concerns regarding the rise in mortality and near misses, IMO many seemingly binary perspectives have yet to be fully scrutinised.
 
I wasn’t saying that the court staff reported anything to barristers while trial or deliberations were ongoing .

Court staff can quite often overhear discussions from outside the jury room and when they go into the jury room to speak to the jury (because discussions are ongoing ) . Then after the trial is all over, court staff may relay what they overheard to barristers they are on good terms with (or indeed “friends” with ). Lawyers who are attending court regularly often have good relations with court staff and will discuss things informally in the nearby favoured watering hole.
This is intriguing.

If I'm understanding this correctly, jury bailiffs, more than one, who have taken an oath to protect the jury from outside interference, and are fully aware of the law, listen in on jury deliberations which are forbidden from ever being discussed, and then talk about those deliberations to the barristers in the pub.

You learn something new every day.
 
Isn't that what the jury will do ?? I think everything should be questioned or what's the point of a trial
Of course things should be questioned. But if you have ZERO medical expertise, and ZERO experiences with preemies, then you would still need to listen to the various medical experts and rely upon their experience and knowledge.
 
This is intriguing.

If I'm understanding this correctly, jury bailiffs, more than one, who have taken an oath to protect the jury from outside interference, and are fully aware of the law, listen in on jury deliberations which are forbidden from ever being discussed, and then talk about those deliberations to the barristers in the pub.

You learn something new every day.
I think that's a little harsh. A bit like saying doctors and nurses sign confidentiality agreements regarding their patients, yet we all know that doctors and nurses talk about their patients outside of work.
 
Yes, it's quite clear it wasn't LL's case that she wasn't there with baby K when Dr J testified. In opening speech defence said it was their case that LL denies dislodging the tube and the baby wasn't sedated.

It's nowhere to be found in the reporting that LL simply wasn't even in the room. The prosecution wouldn't have needed to get a nurse practitioner's statement that it would not be standard practice to wait and see if a 25 week old baby self-corrected before intervening.

This was part of Dr J's cross-examination, where Myers put it to him that his earlier suspicions had crossed his mind when he saw her in the nursery -

"When he agreed that his earlier suspicions about Letby had crossed his mind when seeing her in the nursery, the barrister put it to him: 'You'd got her then!'"
Doctors warned Lucy Letby 'harming babies 8 months before removal'


Denying she was there at this late stage seems incredible to me, if she didn't do as alleged.

MOO
To be fair with such a high turnover of patients in hospitals, it likely isn’t always easy to recall where you were on a ward the week before, at any given minute, let alone years later. I think that, to attribute this to lying would be incredulously unfair.
 
I think the reason this case has so many of us fascinated is because if you had to have a picture above the definition of nurse in the dictionary, you’d see something resembling LL’s picture of her holding that baby grow.
If you’ve had children or been in a neonatal unit, you’ll agree that on first appearances LL looks like every other midwife or nurse. In fact at first glance she looks like one you’d definitely trust to take care of your child. You’d see her enter your room and think ‘she looks nice’. You’d probably look forward to her being on shift because she appears to know what she’s doing and enjoy her job.

You immediately trust her. Now as I said above I never judge solely on appearances, I am friends with everyone all shapes and sizes, backgrounds, personal issues even past criminal history. . Everyone has different baggage and I refuse to be told ‘he’s a bad person don’t talk to him’ etc..

But I’m positive that if LL came across as one of those nurses who don’t have time for you, rude and mean looking, <modsnip - sub judice>. We naturally do judge some people at first glance, it’s only human and we can’t help it most of the time. There are some people who come across as unapproachable, and those are the ones we wouldn’t be too shocked to hear of them committing a heinous crime. When it’s someone who by appearance is nice, normal looking, a helpful nurse who loves her job and is dedicated to it we don’t want to believe that we could all be fooled by someone who looks so normal.

Serial killers don’t have a certain face, or a sign round their neck saying they’re evil. Serial killers don’t have a certain personality type, they’re not all rude and unapproachable, they don’t shuffle around head down looking unkempt and dirty. Some are extremely well functioning, they can go to work and keep up a job, they can have families and wife’s/children who don’t suspect a thing. They can fool whole communities and everyone around them, they often have these communities believing whole heartedly in their innocence because these negative behaviours have never been witnessed by the public. Parents of serial killers often have extreme difficulty coming to terms with the crimes committed by their child, they just cannot relate the heinousness to the child they gave birth to and raised, the adult on home videos at Christmas playing with the kids and helping to cook dinner. They just can’t correlate the accusations with the person they know. But we know that anyone, of any shape size, creed, religion, profession, background can become a killer, and once they’ve done it, some decide they liked the feeling of power and control, they liked the rush and taking the risk. It can become a compulsion, but even a compulsion can still be calculated and carefully thought out.

We often forget that there isn’t a one size fits all. And occasionally you get someone who really breaks the mould and is completely on the outside of the box. Someone who is extremely clever and cunning when it comes to committing their crimes but once they are caught the intelligence seems to go out the window because the lies they’ve built up over the years slowly start to come crumbling down. The shield of lies they’ve protected themselves with for so long is being stripped back and they will eventually be fully exposed. So in survival mode they will deny, deflect, cry, anything to rebuild the shield of lies. Anything to avoid admitting the truth.

<modsnip - sub judice>

All MOO
 
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Yes, it's quite clear it wasn't LL's case that she wasn't there with baby K when Dr J testified. In opening speech defence said it was their case that LL denies dislodging the tube and the baby wasn't sedated.

It's nowhere to be found in the reporting that LL simply wasn't even in the room. The prosecution wouldn't have needed to get a nurse practitioner's statement that it would not be standard practice to wait and see if a 25 week old baby self-corrected before intervening.

This was part of Dr J's cross-examination, where Myers put it to him that his earlier suspicions had crossed his mind when he saw her in the nursery -

"When he agreed that his earlier suspicions about Letby had crossed his mind when seeing her in the nursery, the barrister put it to him: 'You'd got her then!'"
Doctors warned Lucy Letby 'harming babies 8 months before removal'


Denying she was there at this late stage seems incredible to me, if she didn't do as alleged.

MOO
I agree, LL never denied she was present in the room as the baby’s O2 sats began to fall; only denied the accusation that she dislodged the ETT (breathing tube)

IMOO Dr J’s claims about LL, should be carefully scrutinised, considering how it was found that he placed one of the chest drains incorrectly- yet after the babies death, later seemed to jump on the bandwagon (along with Dr G) to blame LL for the baby’s deterioration.

Thus, is it logical to assume that the baby’s requirement for chest drains, including a poorly placed one, played no role in a cardiopulmonary collapse, than to just state LL was in the room, and states she never touched the ETT so it must have been her. Why? Obviously, because she was there.
Source-
 
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What do people think of Dr. J's testimony re. finding LL next to Baby K's incubator? For me, of all the memories which you could argue have blurred over time, I fail to see how anyone could mis-remember this event. It's so specific and stands out to me because of his reason to enter Nursery 1. If another nurse had been in there he would never have gone in. I just cannot fathom why LL is disputing this, not least of all because "standing doing nothing" by the incubator is easily explicable.
All JMO.
I agree ---- it is bad strategy for her to deny some of these things, that she didn't seem to deny earlier.

And as you say, if she happens to be standing in a nursery, so what? You'd expect her to be in and out of most of the nurseries on her shift, for one reason or another.

It was plausible that she was just standing there right when the baby K collapsed---and it proved nothing really. But her calling out DR J as a liar---that is a very bold move.

The conspiracy defense is also a bold move. It is possible that one or 2 jurors might believe it is possible, but not if she loses her credibility first by calling everyone else out---like baby E's mum and dad, and the nurse that placed her in baby C's room.

People are questioning if maybe Baby C died of natural causes instead of an attack. OK, maybe---but why is LL trying so hard to deny what others are saying about her being by C's cot? That alone makes me doubt it was natural causes ...
 
I was referring to the doctors whos statements have changed, and later evolved to seemingly merge, as opposed to the independent experts specifically. I should have made that clearer.

That said, I absolutely agree that the prosecution need to bring in expert witnesses of their own, to validate their claims that the evidence in some cases points to alternative explanations.

E.g., child-D’s case of an apparent systemic infection, who did not receive antibiotics. Alongside, child C’s infection, req. for O2 via CPAP, and accumulation of air in his abdomen on 12 th June (e.g., when LL was ‘not’ at work), but yet was considered to be ‘stable’ - that is the prosecutions experts claim until LL arrived the following day. Not to mention the case of the TPN bag contaminated with insulin put up, when LL was yet again on her day off.

Thus, I hope the defence produce alternative expert viewpoints - Since, whilst there were clearly serious concerns regarding the rise in mortality and near misses, IMO many seemingly binary perspectives have yet to be fully scrutinised.

The prosecution don’t need to bring in witnesses to prove that there could have been other causes. Under cross examination that was the opportunity for BM to ask about other possible causes, which he did, and the response by most of the experts was ‘it’s possible but not probable’ in other words, it’s possible that because I have milk in my fridge I may have a cow in my kitchen, but it’s unlikely I actually do. It’s up to the defense to present these experts who will then under cross examination be grilled by NJ and have to concede that it is possible that the babies were administered air. In the insulin cases there should be no argument as it seems to have been agreed by all parties that someone poisoned those babies with insulin, I’m unsure what the defence can do in those cases to attempt to refute that.

Majority of the babies were not considered critically ill, many were ready for home. Most babies are given antibiotics at some point in their stay to prevent things like sepsis, if child D had already received antibiotics at some point, then they may have been trying to avoid antibiotic resistance or ‘watchful waiting’ might have been in place with plans to begin them if the problem didn’t improve.

LL has admitted herself that just because the swipe data shows she wasn’t there doesn’t mean she wasn’t actually on the unit, I believe on Friday she admitted to going to the unit to check on babies, finish paperwork, when she wasn’t meant to be on shift, and that colleagues could have held the door open for her, which happens. Also if there was a buzzer system (I’m not sure if we’ve heard about one though) then she could have been buzzed in with no evidence of her entering. In many hospitals, if a nurse/doctor sees a colleague waiting to enter a unit they will use their swipe card to open the door and hold the door open for them. They are their colleagues, who are permitted to be on the ward, all she would have had to say is ‘I’m just picking up something I forgot’ or ‘just finishing off my notes from yesterday’. The first bag I believe wa spit up when LL was on shift, when that one ran out, another new bag should have been started but under oath LL testified that there were occasions she was on the unit when she wasn’t meant to be on shift so the TPN bag could well have been poisoned by her that night or she could have arrived early the next morning, got let in by a colleague and then swiped herself in at the time her shift was meant to start.

I think the defence have a lot of work on their hands to dispute a lot of the evidence. They have LL on shift for all the collapses, and plenty of evidence placing her directly around the babies either just before they collapsed or at the time of collapse. Even babies she wasn’t designated to care for and even occasions when she shouldn’t have even been in that room. They also have Dr J and baby E’s mum who witnessed her suspicious activity that she is now trying to dispute.

These babies weren’t meant to die, many were ready to go home soon, had no issues and were by all means healthy until LL entered their orbit.

The doctors at first did not realise that they were witnessing children being murdered/harmed. It didn’t even enter their mind as why would it? The automatic assumption would be some sort of infection that set in quickly with tragic consequences. It was only when the circumstances were investigated that each event was looked at again, along with all X-rays and test results, blood gases, nurses notes etc. that’s when the fuller picture started to emerge.

All MOO
 
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I agree, LL never denied she was present in the room as the baby’s O2 sats began to fall; only denied the accusation that she dislodged the ETT (breathing tube)
Wait a minute---I think you missed the point of the post you were supposedly replying to...:oops:

LL never denied she was present in the room when Dr J walked in as the baby was desaturating----BUT NOW SHE IS DENYING SHE WAS IN THE ROOM. That is a bold move on her part...
IMOO Dr J’s claims about LL, should be carefully scrutinised, considering how it was found that he placed one of the chest drains incorrectly- yet after the babies death, later seemed to jump on the bandwagon (along with Dr G) to blame LL for the baby’s deterioration.

Dr G and Dr J did not 'jump on the bandwagon' after Baby K. They had been concerned about Nurse Letby since Baby C, the 3rd baby in a short stretch of sudden collapses.
Thus, is it logical to assume that the baby’s requirement for chest drains, including a poorly placed one, played no role in a cardiopulmonary collapse, than to just state LL was in the room, and states she never touched the ETT so it must have been her. Why? Obviously, because she was there!

Source-

We could look at Dr J ----but then again, he was not present for all the 22 incidents. There was only one person who was the common denominator. And she is currently being scrutinised.
 
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It's hard to imagine the rising horror of Dr J and his team when they started to put the pieces together, that someone was allegedly harming the babies deliberately. The incident with baby K was the culmination of many other inexplicable incidents, noticed and experienced by other consultants, not just him.


A meeting of a consultants was held on June 29, 2016, the court heard.

Dr Jayaram said: “After a number of further unusual, unexplained and inexplicable events on the neo-natal unit the whole consultant body sat down and said ‘we really need to work out what is going on here’.

He said that “one thing that came up in our discussion” was air embolism – when gas bubbles enter a vein or artery and can block blood supply.

Dr Jayaram said it prompted him that evening to conduct a literature search in which he found a research paper which described the effects of air embolism.

He said: “I remember sitting on my sofa at home with the iPad and reading that description, and the physical chill that went down my spine because it fitted with what we were seeing.”

Dr Jayaram emailed colleagues a link to the research paper the next day.


 
IMO going back and reading the early evidence is really enlightening now we have the context of all the evidence which has been presented. A lot of the pieces seem to fall into place. If I was the jury I would make a timeline to see how everything ties together.
 
IMO going back and reading the early evidence is really enlightening now we have the context of all the evidence which has been presented. A lot of the pieces seem to fall into place. If I was the jury I would make a timeline to see how everything ties together.
I'm hoping the pros makes a timeline to show during closing arguments
 
Going off the current time frame of being over by the end of July. Do you think that BM has many defence witnesses to give evidence? If you think we’re almost in June. NJ probably has another 2 weeks if not longer cross examining LL depending on how many days court actually sits next week (we only have 2 days this week and I think baby E will take up almost a full day if not longer. Then he still has 12 babies to go through, including the insulin cases plus some babies with multiple attempts on their life.

By the time NJ has finished we will be well into the first week of June. BM will then do direct on any more witnesses, then we have to allow NJ time to cross which I think he will do very thorough cross examinations on any and all witnesses for the defence. Then we have the possibility of maybe a rebuttal, then closings, jury instructions!

Is the end of July time frame estimate allowing time for deliberations? If so then I can’t see BM having much of a case to put forward atall IMO. Deliberating just one charge could take days, if we allow even 1 day for each charge that’s over 22 days of deliberation which is almost 4 weeks with deliberations being Monday-Fridays. If some charges take 2 days or more to deliberate, we could be looking at 6 weeks or more before all verdicts are reached. To allow for deliberations I think BM would need to be wrapped up by the second week in June at the latest.. is it possible that LL could be the only witness? Maybe that’s why she’s had to testify if they couldn’t find any experts willing to give evidence to refute the prosecutions claims?
MOO
 
I agree, LL never denied she was present in the room as the baby’s O2 sats began to fall; only denied the accusation that she dislodged the ETT (breathing tube)

IMOO Dr J’s claims about LL, should be carefully scrutinised, considering how it was found that he placed one of the chest drains incorrectly- yet after the babies death, later seemed to jump on the bandwagon (along with Dr G) to blame LL for the baby’s deterioration.

Thus, is it logical to assume that the baby’s requirement for chest drains, including a poorly placed one, played no role in a cardiopulmonary collapse, than to just state LL was in the room, and states she never touched the ETT so it must have been her. Why? Obviously, because she was there.
Source-
When did doctor Jayaram blame LL for the collapse of baby H? As far as I know he has only testified as to treatments he gave the baby. These charges against LL have been brought by the CPS, not the doctors.

Baby H didn't die by the way.

The prosecution medical experts do say the drains were not responsible for her collapses.

"She rejected Mr Myers' suggestion that the explanation for Baby H's two mystery collapses might have been the cumulative effect of a series of procedures she had been through.

'A baby will desaturate as the result of an event, but it's not cumulative and it certainly doesn't cause a cardiac arrest'."

[...]

"Earlier, Dr Dewi Evans, the other paediatrician called as an expert witness by the prosecution, said he believed the overall care Baby H received had saved her life.

At one point Mr Myers accused him of 'deliberately identifying positive factors and ignoring the problems to support these allegations'.

Dr Evans replied: 'No, they are a series of problems that they dealt with, and the proof is she is a well little girl now'."

Medics left needle inside baby's chest, Lucy Letby trial hears
 
I think that's a little harsh. A bit like saying doctors and nurses sign confidentiality agreements regarding their patients, yet we all know that doctors and nurses talk about their patients outside of work.
I don't know that they do, and I would be especially surprised if they did it in public, in the pub.
 
Jurors aren't allowed to discuss the case in front of anyone. The role of those court ushers is to ensure the jury understands and follows their oaths, and to report jury problems to the judge, and to ensure jurors only discuss the case when they are all together in a locked room with no one else in earshot. Court ushers would be very unlikely to hear, let alone report back to the barristers, matters of deliberation which would be classified as contempt of court. MOO

"The jury is also being told that any deliberations they make at the conclusion of the trial have a "lifetime prohibition" from being revealed in public, and each juror takes the contents of what was discussed in the deliberation room in relation to the case as secret "for as long as they are alive".
Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby
This is intriguing.

If I'm understanding this correctly, jury bailiffs, more than one, who have taken an oath to protect the jury from outside interference, and are fully aware of the law, listen in on jury deliberations which are forbidden from ever being discussed, and then talk about those deliberations to the barristers in the pub.

You learn something new every day.
Have to say - not a barrister and don’t specialise in crime - but the 2 of my friends are senior criminal barristers and the Bar is a very small world. Barristers get to know staff very well. Not sure about discussions in a pub - unlikely - but near robing room for sure. Barristers tend to stick to the same circuit - although KC’s go all over - and so get to know the staff on circuit well.
 
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