UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #24

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I've only just realised the reason Mr Johnson pointed out that the handover sheet in her keepsake box was in pristine condition. Even LL seemed surprised that it was the original he showed to her, and not a copy. I think it showed that it hadn't been crumpled up in her pocket all day, it had been carefully transported to her keepsake box, with intention, going right back to her first day in the job.
I reckon every handover sheet was kept for a reason. Some may be as simple as being her first day on a ward, or her first time carrying out a certain procedure. But if guilty, there's a chance that many could be records of previous attacks on babies, that may have left no physical evidence of an attack.

As she's accused of dislodging breathing tubes and of causing brain damage through lack of oxygen, there could be other babies on those sheets, who have minor brain damage , that has never been picked up because there was no reason to ever give them brain scans.

If guilty, as well as being possible trophies of possible additional attacks, those handover sheets would also allow her to search the families to see if there had been any delayed or long term effects.

All JMO, if guilty.
 
Thanks Legal. Questions for you and CS2C,

Were the pages of her social photo album put up on the screens for the jury and public to see, or was it just a document he handed her for her to look at?

Were you surprised, seeing what you saw of her, that she took the stand? What I mean is, do you think she took the stand reluctantly, or from what you think of her, you would have fully expected her to want to outdo the prosecution?

Yes we saw them all. I thought there would just be a still camera showing the room as we were in the adjoining court. They were quite small, modern courtrooms, not big old-fashioned ones like I've been to in London. However, we saw the whole courtroom at the outset, then the camera focused just on LL when she was testifying. At times, Counsel would refer to documents, texts, pictures etc and they would be displayed on the screen.

As an aside, I worked as a paralegal years ago (not in criminal law) and full respect to all the paralegals who put together those court bundles. It is a painstaking job, ensuring all the documents are in the correct order and properly referenced. You have to make multiple paper versions and in my first few jobs I was responsible for the photocopying as well - the horror when I had a paper jam with an original document!!!
 
Minor point, but there was no handover sheet for K.

On the name spelling, I was a bit confused by this. Are they saying it was spelled wrong on the handover sheet, and that’s the spelling she used for the search?
It was an unusual name, very difficult to spell and she was unable to spell it correctly in court when asked. So prosecution suggested the only way she was able to conduct a fb search using the correct spelling was if she had had a handover sheet in front of her and copied the name letter by letter into the fb search engine :)
 
Ah yes!!! How on earth did she remember her surname then, from just having seen her for a matter of hours, and not being her nurse or meeting the parents.

They were testing her answer that she did the searches from her memory, because she had a good memory, rather than having looked it up on the handover sheet. Wasn't for baby K I don't think, they didn't say which baby it was.
Ah right, so the mother’s name is spelled unusually (which she got wrong on the stand yesterday, despite her excellent memory), yet managed to use the correct spelling on her Facebook search.

Not quite as ‘wow’ as I initially thought (that she’d searched for a mistaken spelling via the handover sheet), but either way, looks like she must have referenced something, whether it was handover note or something else, in order to remind herself of the name.
 
It was an unusual name, very difficult to spell and she was unable to spell it correctly in court when asked. So prosecution suggested the only way she was able to conduct a fb search using the correct spelling was if she had had a handover sheet in front of her and copied the name letter by letter into the fb search engine :)
Yup, thanks, and I’ve just mentioned in another reply, even if she didn’t get this name from the handover sheet specifically (let’s assume they were just insignificant pieces of paper strewn about her home), she would still need to have referenced something, this name does not appear to have come from memory. JMO.
 
Thanks Legal. Questions for you and CS2C,

Were the pages of her social photo album put up on the screens for the jury and public to see, or was it just a document he handed her for her to look at?

Were you surprised, seeing what you saw of her, that she took the stand? What I mean is, do you think she took the stand reluctantly, or from what you think of her, you would have fully expected her to want to outdo the prosecution?

Regarding your second question, not sure of CS2C's view but I really couldn't say. She just seemed expressionless, emotionless, robotic really. In my head I compared it to the testimony I read from the main witness in the Thomas Cashman case, who was aggressively questioned by his defence Counsel and from just reading the words written down, you could feel her passion and the fact she was speaking from the heart. LL was meh. She could have been buying a bus ticket, not defending herself against multiple murder IMO.
Ah right, so the mother’s name is spelled unusually (which she got wrong on the stand yesterday, despite her excellent memory), yet managed to use the correct spelling on her Facebook search.

Not quite as ‘wow’ as I initially thought (that she’d searched for a mistaken spelling via the handover sheet), but either way, looks like she must have referenced something, whether it was handover note or something else, in order to remind herself of the name.

Not just spelt unusually, it was a name I'd never heard before. I couldn't even tell you what it was now (and I know I'm not allowed even if I could! But just to make the point).
 
It was an unusual name, very difficult to spell and she was unable to spell it correctly in court when asked. So prosecution suggested the only way she was able to conduct a fb search using the correct spelling was if she had had a handover sheet in front of her and copied the name letter by letter into the fb search engine :)
Ah so her alleged snappiness was because she knew the implications if she couldn't spell it from memory.(if guilty)

JMO
 
<modsnip: quoted post was removed> Just my opinion- but I actually feel as though whilst she is the accused; his involvement with her is bound to be questionable, and quite rightly so.
I must ask why it’s ok to listen/read about her colleagues interactions and their squabbles and “bitchiness” and what it was over and the dynamics of these friendships- but not to question the interactions between her and dr choc (whether it was romantic or not).

The very fact she called specifically for “that” doctor when another doctor had arrived to attend to baby P I think?, it must be considered “why” was his attendance specifically relevant and how did it contribute to the case as a whole. Because she was sweet, crushing on him, because he clearly was quite fond of her. We then see that emotional connection where for whatever reason, she (they) are sharing this very interpersonal emotional grief together. Shared common ground that no-one else understands.

Isn’t this what she was trying to do with Mel? It was discussed by message to JJK, “no-one else understands”. Poor you, bad luck, on your shift again etc
She even wanted to talk to Mel about such loss (that shared grief) and apparently Mel wouldn’t.

It may have become a shenanigan with dr choc later on, but we get to see how through his perusal of her through flattery and chocolates etc, he clearly very much liked her, spent time in London with her, sending love emojis, swooning- to me he appears to be almost like this “suitable” aid in sharing the grief and giving her that sympathy she appeared to crave so much.

In the grand scheme of things and every other interaction and activity with colleagues, messages, days out and messaging her mum, keeping hand over sheets at both her home address and her parents etc; the interaction with dr choc and that “why” imo is significant to the case. Regardless, dr choc I’m sure will have his own questions to be accountable for.

JMO MOO
I just reread some of the last interactions they had, while she was still on the unit. Look how deeply devoted he was to her:

LL: Do I need to be worried about what Dr Gibbs was asking?
Doc. No. He was asking to make sure that normal procedures were being carried out. What exactly did he ask?

LL: I walked into equipment room, he was asking Mary who was present in room and how quickly someone had gone to him as I wasn't in the room. He asked who was there, I said I had popped out of room but Mary was in room and Minna at the desk.

Doc: All he was doing was checking that there wasn't a delay and that a room had been left empty. Was he HDU level because of uvc? There is nothing to worry about.

LL: Ok. Was worried because I wasn't with him at time, but Mary was in room and Minna outside, I had [designated baby who was not Child Q] in 1. ITU because of uvc

Doc: You can't be with two babies in different nurseries at the same time, let alone predict when they're going to crash.

LL: I know, and I didn't leave him on his own. They both knew I was leaving the room. Feel better now

Doc: Nobody has accused you of neglecting a baby or causing a deterioration.

LL: I know. Just worry I haven't done enough

Doc: How?

LL: We've lost 2 babies I was caring for and now this happened today. Makes you think 'am I missing something/good enough'

Doc: Lucy, if anyone knows how hard you've worked over the last three days it's me. The standard of care delivered is tertiary nicu level. if *anybody* says anything to you about not being good enough or performing adequately I want you to promise me that you'll give my details to provide a statement. I don't care who it is and I don't care if I've left the trust. Promise?

LL: Well, I sincerely hope I won't ever be needing a statement but thank you, I promise

Doc: And I don't either. You'll know that the coch nicu mortality rate is a bit higher than the network average. It makes people (consultants) look at trends and patterns. That may have been why Dr G came to ask. As for the self-doubt - you asked me this morning did I dream because I was worried about having missed something? No, and I don't think you did either. In fact for [another baby] you knew he was unwell and flagged it up immediately. I don't know the beginning of the [a separate baby] story because I arrived after the bleep. You didn't miss anything that I would expect an experienced itu trained nurse to spot. From a resus point of view you were flawless. It's why I am so happy to work with you. You don't flap, you give perfectly sensible suggestions and things run seamlessly. (You must be good Rackham said so (seldom praises)). No more doubt - it's not you, it's the babies. I don't know what happened to [Child O] and [Child P], and accept that the pm may not give any useful answers. I do wonder if they may have had adenovirus - it's terrible in neonates / perinates. [Child Q] is different. His behaviour is more bacterial (tachy, temp, reduced uo) I wouldn't be surprised if his bc comes back positive.

LL: Thanks, really appreciate you saying that. So relieved that it's you who has been there throughout.

Sun Jun 26th

00.12am
Doc: It's true. You are one of a few nurses across the region (I’ve worked pretty much everywhere) that I would trust with my own children. If you're worried - I'm worried. You should do the APNP course, you'd be excellent. (In a second reference to his children he adds) They’re possibly a bit too big now.
LL: Don't know what to say Thank you.
Doc: Self-doubt finished?
LL: I think so, thank you ++

Lucy Letby was transferred from unit over doctors' fears, trial hears
 
Ah right, so the mother’s name is spelled unusually (which she got wrong on the stand yesterday, despite her excellent memory), yet managed to use the correct spelling on her Facebook search.

Not quite as ‘wow’ as I initially thought (that she’d searched for a mistaken spelling via the handover sheet), but either way, looks like she must have referenced something, whether it was handover note or something else, in order to remind herself of the name.
Or the whole experience and name was fresh in her memory when she searches for it but has faded in the intervening years
 
Regarding your second question, not sure of CS2C's view but I really couldn't say. She just seemed expressionless, emotionless, robotic really. In my head I compared it to the testimony I read from the main witness in the Thomas Cashman case, who was aggressively questioned by his defence Counsel and from just reading the words written down, you could feel her passion and the fact she was speaking from the heart. LL was meh. She could have been buying a bus ticket, not defending herself against multiple murder IMO.


Not just spelt unusually, it was a name I'd never heard before. I couldn't even tell you what it was now (and I know I'm not allowed even if I could! But just to make the point).
Thank you.
 
One thing I don't feel I've read in the write ups is that when he was asking her about the groups of fb searches she did, and asked what connected the people in her mind, such that she'd conduct one search after another in quick succession, she said they were babies that had died. However, NJ pointed out in one group of three, the third baby was still alive and in the unit at that time, though did subsequently die.
 
One thing I don't feel I've read in the write ups is that when he was asking her about the groups of fb searches she did, and asked what connected the people in her mind, such that she'd conduct one search after another in quick succession, she said they were babies that had died. However, NJ pointed out in one group of three, the third baby was still alive and in the unit at that time, though did subsequently die.
Did he say which babies they were and which one hadn't died at that point?
 
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Here is an excerpt from her last police interview, right before her arrest:

"The interview then deals with a note that read: 'I DID THIS, WHY ME?'

An officer asks: 'Did what?'

Letby replies: 'Well, did something that led to these babies collapsing and dying…I felt that it was me – not intentionally – but through that situation, through the redeployment'.

[...]

Towards the end of her final police interview, on November 10, 2020, Letby was asked: 'Lucy, are you responsible for the deaths of these babies?'

'No,' she replied.

A few minutes later an officer asks how she is feeling. 'I'm just a bit exhausted now,' she said.

It would be her last comment on the investigation ahead of her trial."


Lucy Letby said 'everything got on top of me', baby murder trial hears



Letby replies: 'Well, did something that led to these babies collapsing and dying…I felt that it was me – not intentionally – but through that situation, through the redeployment'.


This ^^^ is another example of her slick wording, and the way she tries to twist things. Essentially she says I felt it was me, my fault but through that situation , THROUGH THE REDEPLOYMENT."

WHT does that mean? How could her redeployment have anything to do with the bAbies deaths? Another load of bollocks in her slick answers.

 
Did he say which babies they were and which one hadn't died at that point?
Yes, but it's difficult to say as they were using the real names. I admire the reporters for being able to report so quickly and convert the names into the letters. Perhaps CS2C has notes on this. I can remember the name of the one who was in the unit but not the other two and I'm not sure which letter the one I can remember would be.
 
The nightdress that haunted her at night, that was so strongly associated with the knock at the door. The same nightdress and door knock that caused PTSD causing these episodes of being startled and profound memory loss. .
Wait a minute... Leisure suit?

Let's revisit her testimony:

After she became aware of the allegations in September 2016 she said 'I went to my GP, I wasn’t sleeping, I wasn’t eating had a complete change in my whole life. I was started on some antidepressants which I remain on now'

Ms Letby said over the last few years there has been 'times when I didn’t want to live'. She said her 'job was her life' and that she 'can't put in to words' the impact the accusations have had on her.

Ms Letby has broke down in tears as she recalls the first time she was arrested - she was woken by officers at 6am in July 2018...She tells the court she was told she was being charged with murder and attempted murder and taken away in her pyjamas. After this first arrest she was released on bail - part of her bail conditions was that she couldn't return to her home, so she moved in with parents.

It was just the most, the scariest thing I've ever been through…it didn’t happen once, twice and a third time…it’s just traumatising', she said. She said she has been diagnosed with PTSD following the arrests and receives psychological support. She says it takes her one hour and a half to get to court from where she is currently being held. She gets up at 5.30am and gets back at 7pm.
 
Thanks Legal. Questions for you and CS2C,

Were the pages of her social photo album put up on the screens for the jury and public to see, or was it just a document he handed her for her to look at?

Were you surprised, seeing what you saw of her, that she took the stand? What I mean is, do you think she took the stand reluctantly, or from what you think of her, you would have fully expected her to want to outdo the prosecution?
Yes we got to see the documents that he was referencing at the time on a screen.

From memory I don't believe the jury was going to get a copy of these documents (I am fairly sure that is what the judge said)

It was 26 pages if I remember rightly and this was only introduced as material by the prosecution for the cross examination that very morning!
The judge gave Letby 30 minutes to read the documents and then the cross examination started.

From memory it was a bit like a excel spreadsheet with different times and dates and messages etc and on that spreadsheet were around 5 or 6 photographs of "Night's out". The odd photo of cocktails and some solely of her friends but these photos were not enlarged, but were visible and touched upon briefly.


In answer to the other question, no I am not surprised she took the stand.
She has a very self assured manner about her and she can articulate herself incredibly well when she wants to. I want to say that she probably thinks she knows better than anyone else (she has that kind of vibe to her)

If I have got anything wrong in the above hopefully the user "Legal" can assist.
 
Yes we got to see the documents that he was referencing at the time on a screen.

From memory I don't believe the jury was going to get a copy of these documents (I am fairly sure that is what the judge said)

It was 26 pages if I remember rightly and this was only introduced as material by the prosecution for the cross examination that very morning!
The judge gave Letby 30 minutes to read the documents and then the cross examination started.

From memory it was a bit like a excel spreadsheet with different times and dates and messages etc and on that spreadsheet were around 5 or 6 photographs of "Night's out". The odd photo of cocktails and some solely of her friends but these photos were not enlarged, but were visible and touched upon briefly.


In answer to the other question, no I am not surprised she took the stand.
She has a very self assured manner about her and she can articulate herself incredibly well when she wants to. I want to say that she probably thinks she knows better than anyone else (she has that kind of vibe to her)

If I have got anything wrong in the above hopefully the user "Legal" can assist.

Hello! Do you remember prosecution saying one of the groups of fb searches included 2 babies that had died but one was still in the unit? This doesn't seem to have been reported.
 
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