UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[squish]

She should have chosen acting as a career.
"Oscar" would be hers!

JMO

After seeing her, I thought she would have made a very good saleswoman or politician

 

[squish]

This whole pyjama thing... I'm confused, can anyone clarify?

So, IIRC, LL was arrested at her own home the first time - I assume an early morning 'surprise visit' from officers, usually these are in the early hours? Is it this occasion she is claiming to have been in her nightie / PJs?

The second (and third - were there three times?) she was arrested at her parents' home - the final time obviously being taken into custody? Were those also 'dawn raid' type door knocks by the police or at least conducted by surprise? Is it at her parents' home when she was taken into custody that she's claiming she was in her nightwear?

Why are some people saying she said a nightie and others saying pyjamas?

Did she answer the door wearing the 'Lee Cooper lounge wear' (this brand is forever trashed LOL)?

Maybe she really did quickly pull a track suit on over her nightie?

If she was arrested several times, then how is there only one video to view and not two or three to prove she was in matching pants and top?

Or maybe she sleeps in casual jog pants and hoodie as PJs (I personally do this *all* the time because I have PTSD from various issues and find it comforting and reassuring. (In the past there's been times where I've needed to flee outdoors without time to get clothes)

How do the police know what she was wearing when they pounced, she would have taken some time to come to the door I assume? Or did her parents answer?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just curious, any responses gratefully received.

She was unable to explain any of that in her own defense on the stand. She was adamant she didn't want the arrest videos shown, then eventually admitted she lied. When asked why she lied to the jury, she said she didn't know.

If she always wore her leisure suit as pyjamas, she would have said so. It would have still been dishonest, because presumably the trauma of being taken away in your pyjamas is the humiliation that you look indecent, and the lack of empathy from police. That wouldn't be the case if you were actually wearing outside clothes, even if slept in.

If she put the leisure suit on over the nightie, she would have said so. She was unable to say any of that, because the very clear picture she deliberately painted was that of a frightened, shocked young woman humiliatingly dragged out of her house at 6am in her pyjamas.

PS - anyone know wtf a "leisure suit" is? Is this what posh people call a tracksuit?

 

[Dotta]

After seeing her, I thought she would have made a very good saleswoman or politician

As you are here now I would like to ask you a really silly question
Is it my imagination, or if LL really put on weight a lot?

She was always slim, but on Court sketches she seems chubby and really big in this fancy jacket.

It is just my feminine curiosity.
Sorry!

 

[squish]

As you are here now I would like to ask you a really silly question
Is it my imagination, or if LL really put on weight a lot?

She was always slim, but on Court sketches she seems chubby and really big in this fancy jacket.

It is just my feminine curiosity.
Sorry!

No, I don't think she's put on weight, but she does have a slightly chubby face. I think that's down to the way her face has aged. She doesn't have a double chin or fat neck or anything.

I noticed that she was quite broad-shouldered. Her dad was extremely tall (about 6'3" or 1.9m) for an elderly man, so I think she might be taller and bigger than she looks.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

She was unable to explain any of that in her own defense on the stand. She was adamant she didn't want the arrest videos shown, then eventually admitted she lied. When asked why she lied to the jury, she said she didn't know.

If she always wore her leisure suit as pyjamas, she would have said so. It would have still been dishonest, because presumably the trauma of being taken away in your pyjamas is the humiliation that you look indecent, and the lack of empathy from police. That wouldn't be the case if you were actually wearing outside clothes, even if slept in.

If she put the leisure suit on over the nightie, she would have said so. She was unable to say any of that, because the very clear picture she deliberately painted was that of a frightened, shocked young woman humiliatingly dragged out of her house at 6am in her pyjamas.

Wow, OK thank you so much for this info.

Incredible, she really has been proven in this one exchange to fabricate stories. In order to manipulate other's emotions it seems.

 

[Dcflag]

She was unable to explain any of that in her own defense on the stand. She was adamant she didn't want the arrest videos shown, then eventually admitted she lied. When asked why she lied to the jury, she said she didn't know.

If she always wore her leisure suit as pyjamas, she would have said so. It would have still been dishonest, because presumably the trauma of being taken away in your pyjamas is the humiliation that you look indecent, and the lack of empathy from police. That wouldn't be the case if you were actually wearing outside clothes, even if slept in.

If she put the leisure suit on over the nightie, she would have said so. She was unable to say any of that, because the very clear picture she deliberately painted was that of a frightened, shocked young woman humiliatingly dragged out of her house at 6am in her pyjamas.

PS - anyone know wtf a "leisure suit" is? Is this what posh people call a tracksuit?

I would have to check back on the previous thread but I’m sure she did say she had a nightie on under her tracksuit. I’ll check and edit if I’m incorrect!

Edit: unorthodox but I remembered I screenshot from the forum and happened to have it in there. This is from Fridays testimony and is a msm update posted here. I remember it because when I read it I felt like both could be true? Had the police originally arrested her in her nightie and then afforded her time to get some clothes and shoes, it’s entirely plausible that she’s thrown the leisure suit on top of the nightie. Leisure suits are often material tracksuit bottoms and a material zip up jacket/jumper (I would wear a T-shirt under it in any case).

In any footage, if zipped up with the nightie tucked in, how can you possibly say she’s not wearing the nightie?

And while it’s still not the humiliation of being led out of your house in handcuffs in a nightie, it is the humiliation of having police knock and enter your parents house and effectively arrest you in your pajamas even if it’s only your parents witnessing it. I’m in no hurry to let anyone in my house with no bra on and whatever random garment I decided to sleep in that is never really decent attire for visitors.

I’d love to see what she originally said about the arrest but I’m definitely not going that far back to look tonight!

 

[IDK]

I would have to check back on the previous thread but I’m sure she did say she had a nightie on under her tracksuit. I’ll check and edit if I’m incorrect!

Edit: unorthodox but I remembered I screenshot from the forum and happened to have it in there. This is from Fridays testimony and is a msm update posted here. I remember it because when I read it I felt like both could be true? Had the police originally arrested her in her nightie and then afforded her time to get some clothes and shoes, it’s entirely plausible that she’s thrown the leisure suit on top of the nightie. Leisure suits are often material tracksuit bottoms and a material zip up jacket/jumper (I would wear a T-shirt under it in any case).

In any footage, if zipped up with the nightie tucked in, how can you possibly say she’s not wearing the nightie?

And while it’s still not the humiliation of being led out of your house in handcuffs in a nightie, it is the humiliation of having police knock and enter your parents house and effectively arrest you in your pajamas even if it’s only your parents witnessing it. I’m in no hurry to let anyone in my house with no bra on and whatever random garment I decided to sleep in that is never really decent attire for visitors.

I’d love to see what she originally said about the arrest but I’m definitely not going that far back to look tonight!

View attachment 428041

This is what I’m wondering to. I feel like her reaction and claims of PTSD are related to the whole chain of events, not just what she was wearing at the time. Meaning the acts of being arrested in her home unexpectedly at 6 am in a state of undress, ( I know plenty of people who sleep in sweats and t- shirt) and the shock of it all. I really wonder if I would remember exactly what type of pajamas I was wearing if I were in a similar scenario! is it just me or did it seem the prosecutor was badgering her a bit and she just ended up agreeing with him because it was not really important and she was flustered by the focus on her night wear?

I might not be making my point clear, but basically— the case should be decided on the facts and evidence, not some quibbles over pajamas. In my opinion at least. Of course I wasn’t there in court and only going by second hand reports.

 

[Cluedoneit]

This is what I’m wondering to. I feel like her reaction and claims of PTSD are related to the whole chain of events, not just what she was wearing at the time. Meaning the acts of being arrested in her home unexpectedly at 6 am in a state of undress, ( I know plenty of people who sleep in sweats and t- shirt) and the shock of it all. I really wonder if I would remember exactly what type of pajamas I was wearing if I were in a similar scenario! is it just me or did it seem the prosecutor was badgering her a bit and she just ended up agreeing with him because it was not really important and she was flustered by the focus on her night wear?

I might not be making my point clear, but basically— the case should be decided on the facts and evidence, not some quibbles over pajamas. In my opinion at least. Of course I wasn’t there in court and only going by second hand reports.

What Johnson was doing was showing the court exactly what she looks like when stating a provable lie. If she lied without a change of her usual body language, then the jury can see that she’s a practised liar and can choose to disregard anything she said. After all Letby’s case is currently her credibility vs the experts, consultants and parents. If she commits perjury so casually ( criminal offence number 2 she’s admitted to during this cross exam) then what’s left of her credibility to the court as a whole?

 

[katydid23]

This is what I’m wondering to. I feel like her reaction and claims of PTSD are related to the whole chain of events, not just what she was wearing at the time. Meaning the acts of being arrested in her home unexpectedly at 6 am in a state of undress, ( I know plenty of people who sleep in sweats and t- shirt) and the shock of it all. I really wonder if I would remember exactly what type of pajamas I was wearing if I were in a similar scenario! is it just me or did it seem the prosecutor was badgering her a bit and she just ended up agreeing with him because it was not really important and she was flustered by the focus on her night wear?

I might not be making my point clear, but basically— the case should be decided on the facts and evidence, not some quibbles over pajamas. In my opinion at least. Of course I wasn’t there in court and only going by second hand reports.

I don't know why it would be that shocking. She knew the deaths were under investigation and she was the prime suspect.

She began having a meltdown about it back at the moment she first learned she was under suspicion. So I don't think she would be that shocked or surprised at being arrested. As she, herself said:

LL: We've lost 2 babies I was caring for and now this happened today. Makes you think 'am I missing something/good enough'

So she knew they had reasons to look at her closely. I don't deny that she might have depression and/or PTSD from the events that happened. But I don't believe she was shocked at the arrests. JMO

If she had a nightie on with her sweatpants and trainers, then she still lied about being taken in wearing pyjamas. And she lied becAuse she craves being the victim. That is her main desire, IMO---to play victim and martyr and receive attention and sympathy from others. JMO

 

[Phoenix Lazarus]

Now she's finished testifying, the end' seems to be in sight at last. Till now, it's almost seemed as if it would never finish.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I agree. And that kerfuffle about the Agreed Upon evidence only affects one incident. If there is a mistrial it would only be on that one case, hopefully. The rest could go forward.

This trial, even in relation to that one case, isn't going to collapse due to a single small mistake by one side.

 

[Marantz4250b]

So tomorrow I will be creating a video on my experience at court yesterday.
Can I just clarify what I can speak about ? Am I allowed to mention observations of Lucy such as very calm, articulate etc etc ?

I know I am not allowed to speak about my belief if she is innocent or guilty and I know I can discuss only what the jury has heard. I am just wondering about personal thoughts such as my opinion of how she appears to me and how she responded during certain exchanges etc.

I don't want to be clapped in irons and sent to the hell hole

I'm not sure but I'd be careful, were I you. If the professional reporters aren't doing it there will be very good reasons why they aren't.

 

[CS2C]

What Johnson was doing was showing the court exactly what she looks like when stating a provable lie. If she lied without a change of her usual body language, then the jury can see that she’s a practised liar and can choose to disregard anything she said. After all Letby’s case is currently her credibility vs the experts, consultants and parents. If she commits perjury so casually ( criminal offence number 2 she’s admitted to during this cross exam) then what’s left of her credibility to the court as a whole?

I can say without a doubt in my mind that nothing changed at all.
Her voice and body language remained exactly the same through that exchange as it did throughout the rest of the proceedings I witnessed.

 

[CS2C]

I'm not sure but I'd be careful, were I you. If the professional reporters aren't doing it there will be very good reasons why they aren't.

Yes I think I will just expand on the some of the points listed in the live reporting to give it some further context but I will refrain from personal opinion or observation until the trial is over.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I had actually wondered about a claim of ineffective counsel. Almost any person who is found guilty immediately files for appeal so I would expect nothing less if there is any conviction in this case.

That's never going to happen. This isn't an American court where a lawyer with a degree from a Cheerios box is allowed to defend death penalty cases.

Ben Myers is a KC with a stellar reputation. If anything, based on the events so far, he might have a claim for his client undermining his good name!

 

[Jayney404]

Who knows how much of the nightdress fiasco was defence strategy vs opportunist fabrication.

If I were running a defence involving ptsd I’d likely advise saying the ptsd came from assisting in multiple vulnerable neonates resuscitations and feeling powerless to help them, having no idea why these events were happening, then having to comfort the grieving parents.

NOT

Some babies died but I don’t recall the detail. The parents were sad probably but I don’t recall. ( oh except the bits the parents report that put me in a bad light I remember those crystal clear and they are lies). But what was traumatic for me was being arrested in a case I knew I was a suspect in without prior notice. Oh and I was in a nightdress so very vulnerable. (Oh no wait that’s a lie).

We know ll likes to make others look silly ‘if they have nothing on me they’ll look silly not me’. She likely would have therefore allowed video to be shown If she thought in any way it would support her case.

JMO, imo, if guilty…..

 

[Marantz4250b]

So those pictures do some damage to that personal narrative she put out there. Especially finding out she lied about something as meaningless as the pyjamas. How can we trust what she says?

Did she, though?

I've linked to where this was reported. She said she was arrested in her pyjamas. This is probably true if she answered the door at 6am. NJ said he could play a video of her being led away in something else. Being arrested and being led away are not the same thing. They would have arrested her the instant she answered the door.

Has she said that she was taken away in her pyjamas? I don't think so.

Post in thread 'UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #24' UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #24

 

[Marantz4250b]

I was surprised by the lack of objection and wondered why this prosecution claim wasn't pulled apart. Unless there is no foundation to argue and all three video footages are known to the defence (one would hope so)?

If I was her defence, imaginary scenario ahead >> I should say well here is my client on first arrest being taken outdoors as we see wearing her favourite teddy bear nightie, here she is on her second arrest wearing a T-shirt and knickers, and here she is on her third arrest wearing flimsy leisurewear that she calls 'pyjamas'. Then I would argue that this is not dignified and that my client was denied her request for more substantial clothing which is breach of god knows what PACE conduct code. << end of imaginary scenario IANAL

I think it highly unlikely that the second and third arrests were at her parents house, tbh. She was regularly answering police bail so she'd have been arrested at a police station on these occasions.

 

[Marantz4250b]

PS - anyone know wtf a "leisure suit" is? Is this what posh people call a tracksuit?

It's what Americans call a tracksuit. I'm quite puzzled as to why NJ used that phrase, tbh.

 

[Marantz4250b]

As you are here now I would like to ask you a really silly question
Is it my imagination, or if LL really put on weight a lot?

She was always slim, but on Court sketches she seems chubby and really big in this fancy jacket.

It is just my feminine curiosity.
Sorry!

As I've alluded to before, I think it's the court artist taking huge liberties. If she's convicted (which is looking increasingly likely, imo) then these pictures will be used for the rest if time so might as well make them look dramatic.

I exchanged messes months ago on here with someone who's work colleague knew a friend who had visited her in prison and who'd said she'd lost loads of weight. Can't imagine anyone getting fat on prison food, tbh.