UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #26

[Tortoise]

[...] "What is the state of mind of someone who does that? Is it someone who watches someone freshly born desaturating [for up to half a minute - in the case of Child K].
"Is it a sick person? LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, June 19 - closing speeches

That really packs a punch.

IMO

(I'm guessing they're at lunch now)

 

[Legal]

That really packs a punch.

IMO

I agree and I also found the below chilling:

"It's so sly, isn't it?" Mr Johnson says the insulin-contaminated bag was going to be administered when 'the poisoner' was not on duty, to be administered by "an unsuspecting colleague" - "a member of her 'family'".

It must be awful to realise you'd attached a baby you were caring for, to poison. And for all LL knew (if guilty) it could have been one of her friends.

 

[MachinaCollecta]

Given their recent track record, I’m fully expecting the defence’s closing speech to be simply “Well, we tried! The plumber is available for bookings, bye”.

 

[Tortoise]

Given their recent track record, I’m fully expecting the defence’s closing speech to be simply “Well, we tried! The plumber is available for bookings, bye”.

I don't envy his job. He's going to have a very long list of people to slate basically, it might even reach the floor from his hand.

 

[marynnu]

I don't envy his job. He's going to have a very long list of people to slate basically, it might even reach the floor from his hand.

He might be on his hands and knees by then though, poor chap.

 

[Tortoise]

He might be on his hands and knees by then though, poor chap.

The prosecution hands the jurors a document. The defence hands them a list on a toilet roll.

 

[marynnu]

The prosecution hands the jurors a document. The defence hands them a list on a toilet roll.

Super Lorenzo might come in handy here.

 

[IDK]

12:55pm

No other child on the unit was receiving TPN bags that day, in the case of Child F. The turnover of TPN bags was "very low" according to evidence by Yvonne Griffiths.
The bag "was only ever going to one child, isn't it?"
"It's so sly, isn't it?" Mr Johnson says the insulin-contaminated bag was going to be administered when 'the poisoner' was not on duty, to be administered by "an unsuspecting colleague" - "a member of her 'family'".
"What does that tell you about the mindset?"
"It shows you a cynical, cold-blooded" planner, Mr Johnson says.
The amount of insulin in the two bags was 'about the same', which showed there had been thought put into the preparation.
Mr Johnson says Letby "told some interesting lies" about Child F in police interview. "She claimed she hadn't been aware of any concerns about [Child F's] blood sugar."
He says Letby otherwise had a very good memory.
"You know she is lying [from] the text messages she sent to [a nursing colleague]."
Police broke the news of insulin c-peptide to Letby in November 2020, Mr Johnson adds.
The 'surreptitious' searching of Child E&F's mother on Facebook was "never properly explained."
Mr Johnson says Letby was "Cold, calculated, cruel and relentless."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, June 19 - closing speeches

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

I’m not sure how to bold the following but I have a question—“The amount of the insulin in the two bags was about the same”

Does he mean the amount in two separate bags that were given to Baby F? Or is he referring to bags for child F and child L? Just clarifying.
Thanks.

 

[MachinaCollecta]

I don't envy his job. He's going to have a very long list of people to slate basically, it might even reach the floor from his hand.

I think it’s incredibly tricky now for him. I believe IMO that LL testifying did major damage to his case, so all he can do is try to pin the blame on the conspiracy of four and bring up the sewage again.

 

[marynnu]

I’m not sure how to bold the following but I have a question—“The amount of the insulin in the two bags was about the same”

Does he mean the amount in two separate bags that were given to Baby F? Or is he referring to bags for child F and child L? Just clarifying.
Thanks.

He must mean both bags for Baby F I think, as he talks about it being contaminated ready for a colleague to use.

 

[Tortoise]

I’m not sure how to bold the following but I have a question—“The amount of the insulin in the two bags was about the same”

Does he mean the amount in two separate bags that were given to Baby F? Or is he referring to bags for child F and child L? Just clarifying.
Thanks.

Yes he means the TPN given to baby F.

 

[Tortoise]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
1m

We're due to resume in 5mins or so. Wrap of this morning's proceedings here

Lucy Letby trial: Nurse 'gaslighted colleagues to hide baby murders'

Nurse Lucy Letby is accused of being a "calculating and devious" opportunist who killed babies.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Kemug]

BM certainly can't convince anyone (IMO) of LL's innocence, all he can hope for is to convince the jury that her guilt hasn't been proven.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Now NJ has brought up gaslighting, can we discuss this further? Because IMO a large portion of LL’s testimony on the stand was an attempt to gaslight the jury. Trying to confuse them with so many contradictions to the point they start to doubt the evidence they’ve heard.

If guilty, IMO she was an experienced gaslighter. And someone like this does not just develop the skills necessary to pull the wool over the eyes of experienced medical professionals overnight. It’s a culmination of years of experience JMO.

The origin of gaslighting is from an old film called ‘Gaslight’ where a man gradually convinces his wife that she is losing her mind. He causes the gaslights in their home to go on and off, he is the source of strange noises and manipulates her into believing that these are figments of her imagination and that she is going insane.

People often refer to lying as gaslighting, however IMO it’s a whole different level of lying. The aim of a gaslighter is to use lies to manipulate a person’s views of themselves or others, aswell as their memories of events causing them to believe that they are misremembering things they know to be true. Aswell as physically tampering with things that can help towards bolstering their lies. IMO if guilty it could be suggested that LL operates on a combination of pathalogical lying and gaslighting. Gaslighting is emotional manipulation that cause the victim to doubt themselves and wonder if things really did happen. It’s lying with an ultimate aim in mind, pathological liars tell lies automatically and don’t even stop to consider how outrageous they may be.
If guilty, Dr J and Baby E’s mother IMO are two examples of gaslighting in this case.

All MOO

 

[Tortoise]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
2m

Mr Johnson is back on his feet. He's going over the cases of Child L and M, twin boys born in April 2016.

 

[Tortoise]

Now NJ has brought up gaslighting, can we discuss this further? Because IMO a large portion of LL’s testimony on the stand was an attempt to gaslight the jury. Trying to confuse them with so many contradictions to the point they start to doubt the evidence they’ve heard.

If guilty, IMO she was an experienced gaslighter. And someone like this does not just develop the skills necessary to pull the wool over the eyes of experienced medical professionals overnight. It’s a culmination of years of experience JMO.

The origin of gaslighting is from an old film called ‘Gaslight’ where a man gradually convinces his wife that she is losing her mind. He causes the gaslights in their home to go on and off, he is the source of strange noises and manipulates her into believing that these are figments of her imagination and that she is going insane.

People often refer to lying as gaslighting, however IMO it’s a whole different level of lying. The aim of a gaslighter is to use lies to manipulate a person’s views of themselves or others, aswell as their memories of events causing them to believe that they are misremembering things they know to be true. Aswell as physically tampering with things that can help towards bolstering their lies. IMO if guilty it could be suggested that LL operates on a combination of pathalogical lying and gaslighting. Gaslighting is emotional manipulation that cause the victim to doubt themselves and wonder if things really did happen. It’s lying with an ultimate aim in mind, pathological liars tell lies automatically and don’t even stop to consider how outrageous they may be.
If guilty, Dr J and Baby E’s mother IMO are two examples of gaslighting in this case.

All MOO

These alleged tendencies could explain why she took the stand. IMO

 

[Tortoise]

2:18pm

Mr Johnson refers to the cases of Child L and Child M, the twins.
He says fluids were calculated for Child L by Dr Sudeshna Bhowmik. Letby had recorded 'myself and shift leader A.Davies have discussed this with Reg. Bhowmik as it does not follow the hypoglycaemia pathway'.
Amy Davies had not recalled this conversation.
Mr Johnson says Letby was "setting up an issue" for Child L.
Child L's blood sugar level had improved so monitoring was not required. Nurse Tracey Jones said she didn't change the dextrose bag during her shift.
Mr Johnson says for the day shift on April 9, 2016, Mary Griffith was the designated nurse for Child L and Child M, on a "busy shift". Mr Johnson says if people were "very busy", then they might [n]ot have the time to monitor what Letby was up to.
Mary Griffith was "certainly out of the room" by 9.30am as she was in room 4 administering medication to children in there, Mr Johnson says.
He says that means Lucy Letby would have been "alone" with Child L at that time. He says that would be when insulin was put into Child L's dextrose bag, as Prof Hindmarsh, in evidence, said it had to be by 9.30am.
A blood sample taken for Child L taken at 10am showed an increase in the amount of dextrose given but a drop in the level of blood sugar - "when the opposite should have been true".
Mr Johnson says the "fingerpoint of evidence" is the ratio between insulin and insulin c-peptide later recorded.
The 'podding' of the blood sample was delayed due to Child M's collapse, Mr Johnson says, and the timing of the sample taken must be taken from several accounts. He says it "must have been taken about 3.45pm".

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, June 19 - closing speeches

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

2:23pm

The blood sample "would have been treated as urgent" and the nurse said she had been distracted by "an emergency" with Child M, which was timed at 4pm.
The blood was put into a vial and envelope and labelled.
The request for the blood test was entered at 3.45pm on a 'lab specimen internal inquiry' form at the Countess of Chester Pathology. The form is shown to the court.
Mr Johnson says this matches Dr Anthony Ukoh's evidence to say the test was requested at this time.
The process and analysis were "interrupted" by "Lucy Letby's attack on [Child M]," Mr Johnson adds.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, June 19 - closing speeches

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[marynnu]

Now NJ has brought up gaslighting, can we discuss this further? Because IMO a large portion of LL’s testimony on the stand was an attempt to gaslight the jury. Trying to confuse them with so many contradictions to the point they start to doubt the evidence they’ve heard.

If guilty, IMO she was an experienced gaslighter. And someone like this does not just develop the skills necessary to pull the wool over the eyes of experienced medical professionals overnight. It’s a culmination of years of experience JMO.

The origin of gaslighting is from an old film called ‘Gaslight’ where a man gradually convinces his wife that she is losing her mind. He causes the gaslights in their home to go on and off, he is the source of strange noises and manipulates her into believing that these are figments of her imagination and that she is going insane.

People often refer to lying as gaslighting, however IMO it’s a whole different level of lying. The aim of a gaslighter is to use lies to manipulate a person’s views of themselves or others, aswell as their memories of events causing them to believe that they are misremembering things they know to be true. Aswell as physically tampering with things that can help towards bolstering their lies. IMO if guilty it could be suggested that LL operates on a combination of pathalogical lying and gaslighting. Gaslighting is emotional manipulation that cause the victim to doubt themselves and wonder if things really did happen. It’s lying with an ultimate aim in mind, pathological liars tell lies automatically and don’t even stop to consider how outrageous they may be.
If guilty, Dr J and Baby E’s mother IMO are two examples of gaslighting in this case.

All MOO

Does downplaying things fit into this? The comment 'it could happen to any baby' for Baby E struck me from the first time I read it, as it's completely outrageous IMO. But such a throwaway comment could easily just plant the seed of an idea while being barely noticed. JMO.

 

[Tortoise]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
22s

The court has previously heard that in the hours that followed Ms Letby's arrival on shift on 9 April, Child L's glucose levels fell to abnormally low and he had to be given glucose in an attempt to correct hypoglycaemia.

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
26s

The prosecution said blood tests revealed a very high level of insulin, which they said had been caused by the administering of synthetic insulin in a "deliberate act of sabotage" by Ms Letby.

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
24s

Mr Johnson is taking the jury back over various medical charts and documents for Child L from this time. He says they show a 'a fingerprint of the introduction of manufactured insulin, in other words - somebody poisoned (Child L)'