UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #27
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Does that actually leave any staff manning the hospital?
MachinaCollecta
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More of BM saying “the prosecution said THIS… well I say THAT instead!”. No experts to testify and support any of this. No witnesses on LL’s side at all during this trial. There’s nothing backing most of this beyond refuting what’s been said and hoping the jury doesn’t look past the surface level of it.
SleepyJoe
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Please advise if this is inappropriate and I'll delete!
Tortoise's post on common personality traits/ characteristics of homicidal poisoners reminded me of something I read recently.
I am currently reading a book on schema therapy after a colleague had talked about how useful it was for them. I don't quite understand it properly, but from what I can gather from this book (see title cover below), we all can operate from certain patterns or "schemas" that were formed in childhood that can sometimes be maladaptive. In other words these are key lessons that we learned in childhood that form our view of the how the world works and how we responded to get our needs met. If I understand correctly, the patterns of behaviours that are a part of a schema stem from unmet needs in childhood. (This is my rough understanding anyway). There are 18 common maladaptive schemas and one is the Grandiose/ Entitled schema. I have photographed the short description of this schema given in the book. I found this very interesting, especially how, in the final paragraph of the photographed page, which describes childhood experience in this schema, it lists that it can stem from overattentive, protective parenting. (Perhaps the style of parenting that may happen if one was an indulged only child......). JMO!
Tortoise's post on common personality traits/ characteristics of homicidal poisoners reminded me of something I read recently.
I am currently reading a book on schema therapy after a colleague had talked about how useful it was for them. I don't quite understand it properly, but from what I can gather from this book (see title cover below), we all can operate from certain patterns or "schemas" that were formed in childhood that can sometimes be maladaptive. In other words these are key lessons that we learned in childhood that form our view of the how the world works and how we responded to get our needs met. If I understand correctly, the patterns of behaviours that are a part of a schema stem from unmet needs in childhood. (This is my rough understanding anyway). There are 18 common maladaptive schemas and one is the Grandiose/ Entitled schema. I have photographed the short description of this schema given in the book. I found this very interesting, especially how, in the final paragraph of the photographed page, which describes childhood experience in this schema, it lists that it can stem from overattentive, protective parenting. (Perhaps the style of parenting that may happen if one was an indulged only child......). JMO!
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SleepyJoe
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Oh, that is VERY disappointing to hear that the prosecution don't get the final rebuttal! I was counting on that for NJ to point out how disingenuous BM had been during his closing.
11:17am
Mr Myers says the evidence is the stock [replacement] bag must have been contaminated with insulin. He asks how can Letby can be responsible for that bag, as no-one could have foreseen it would have been needed? He says the first bag was replaced as the cannula line had tissued.
He says it is like "Russian dolls of improbability".
He says a TPN bag lasts 48 hours. He says there are a number of stock bags kept, not kept in any particular order. He says there is no evidence no other babies subsequently displayed symptoms of high insulin from the other bags.
He says unless Letby had a "Nostradamus-like" ability to read the future, in the event of a targeted attack, a stock bag would not be contaminated with insulin on the off-chance it would be needed, and the bag was the one chosen 'at random' by a colleague.
Mr Myers says the evidence is the stock [replacement] bag must have been contaminated with insulin. He asks how can Letby can be responsible for that bag, as no-one could have foreseen it would have been needed? He says the first bag was replaced as the cannula line had tissued.
He says it is like "Russian dolls of improbability".
He says a TPN bag lasts 48 hours. He says there are a number of stock bags kept, not kept in any particular order. He says there is no evidence no other babies subsequently displayed symptoms of high insulin from the other bags.
He says unless Letby had a "Nostradamus-like" ability to read the future, in the event of a targeted attack, a stock bag would not be contaminated with insulin on the off-chance it would be needed, and the bag was the one chosen 'at random' by a colleague.
11:22am
Mr Myers says Letby believed she had a good relationship with Child E and Child F's mother. He says there is an entry in Letby's diary on Child E - the only entry for any child in the indictment in the 2015 diary. He says there is no entry for Child F.
He says the photograph of the sympathy card for Child E's parents, taken by Letby at the hospital, has no relevance. Mr Myers says it was a photo taken while she was at work.
11:24am
Mr Myers refers to the case of Child G, for which there are three allegations. He recalls the key events during her care at the Countess of Chester Hospital's neonatal unit in September 2015.
11:28am
Mr Myers says there are many areas to this case which are "upsetting", and the brain injury Child G sustained is "deeply upsetting- heartbreaking".
He says whatever emotions that may be felt as a result, that does not establish what Letby is alleged to have done.
Mr Myers says Letby believed she had a good relationship with Child E and Child F's mother. He says there is an entry in Letby's diary on Child E - the only entry for any child in the indictment in the 2015 diary. He says there is no entry for Child F.
He says the photograph of the sympathy card for Child E's parents, taken by Letby at the hospital, has no relevance. Mr Myers says it was a photo taken while she was at work.
11:24am
Mr Myers refers to the case of Child G, for which there are three allegations. He recalls the key events during her care at the Countess of Chester Hospital's neonatal unit in September 2015.
11:28am
Mr Myers says there are many areas to this case which are "upsetting", and the brain injury Child G sustained is "deeply upsetting- heartbreaking".
He says whatever emotions that may be felt as a result, that does not establish what Letby is alleged to have done.
11:31am
Mr Myers says the case against Letby - the allegations - are "weak", and "demonstrate shortcomings in this case".
He says it is "shameful" that Letby was being blamed for the monitor being off on one of Child G's incidents, and it was only from one of the nurse's accounts in evidence that showed it was not the case.
Mr Myers says the case against Letby - the allegations - are "weak", and "demonstrate shortcomings in this case".
He says it is "shameful" that Letby was being blamed for the monitor being off on one of Child G's incidents, and it was only from one of the nurse's accounts in evidence that showed it was not the case.
11:38am
Mr Myers says Child G was very premature, and her transport to the Countess of Chester Hospital was delayed as she had an event where she desaturated to 42%. He said there were also events of blood-stained secretions and an event described in the notes at Arrowe Park as a "pulmonary haemhorrhage".
He says for 2.15am on September 7, the allegation is Letby force-fed Child G. He says there is no evidence she did so.
Mr Myers says Child G was very premature, and her transport to the Countess of Chester Hospital was delayed as she had an event where she desaturated to 42%. He said there were also events of blood-stained secretions and an event described in the notes at Arrowe Park as a "pulmonary haemhorrhage".
He says for 2.15am on September 7, the allegation is Letby force-fed Child G. He says there is no evidence she did so.
SleepyJoe
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He seems to be ignoring the fact that child F was the only child on the unit at the time who was on TPN!!!!
IDK
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IMO what has always bothered me is that if baby F was already on TPN, wouldn’t he have been getting a new bag specifically made for him, instead of a stock bag? It would have been tailor made just for that baby with the electrolytes and glucose individualized for them only, and labeled with their name, IMO.
Every hospital is different of course, but where I worked TPN was specially made and brought up from pharmacy daily.
I think at one time someone referred to it as “bespoke”.
Just curios if anyone else remembers this detail.
IMO, if guilty.
12:07pm
Mr Myers says Dr Evans and Dr Bohin, before the trial, said air and milk had been forced down the NG Tube, and that a colleague of Letby had aspirated Child G's stomach before the 45ml feed [ie the stomach was 'pretty much empty']. He says that was the assumption.
He says the assumption was wrong. The nurse said she would have taken enough aspirate to assess the pH level of the stomach, but not enough to empty the stomach. She had said that would have been done with bigger babies who were stable.
He says the evidence "all falls apart". He says the nurse said there could have been undigested milk in there.
He says this "created a fundamental problem for the experts". He says the defence was critical of how the allegation "morphs", and focused on the description of the pH level.
He says the judge, Mr Justice James Goss, asked about that, and the nurse replied the pH level would not give an indication of how much milk was in the stomach.
Mr Myers says Dr Evans and Dr Bohin said low pH levels meant acid, and no milk in the stomach, and had "changed their lines of attack". Dr Bohin was "particularly vigorous" about it, saying pH of 4 was "very acidic" and milk would "neutralise" that reading. Mr Myers says the nurse "did not get that wrong".
He says in the case of Child P, there can be a low pH reading with a lot of milk in the stomach. He says 14ml of milk was aspirated, and a pH reading of 3, and a later reading gives 20ml aspirate and a pH reading of 3.
Mr Myers says Dr Evans and Dr Bohin, before the trial, said air and milk had been forced down the NG Tube, and that a colleague of Letby had aspirated Child G's stomach before the 45ml feed [ie the stomach was 'pretty much empty']. He says that was the assumption.
He says the assumption was wrong. The nurse said she would have taken enough aspirate to assess the pH level of the stomach, but not enough to empty the stomach. She had said that would have been done with bigger babies who were stable.
He says the evidence "all falls apart". He says the nurse said there could have been undigested milk in there.
He says this "created a fundamental problem for the experts". He says the defence was critical of how the allegation "morphs", and focused on the description of the pH level.
He says the judge, Mr Justice James Goss, asked about that, and the nurse replied the pH level would not give an indication of how much milk was in the stomach.
Mr Myers says Dr Evans and Dr Bohin said low pH levels meant acid, and no milk in the stomach, and had "changed their lines of attack". Dr Bohin was "particularly vigorous" about it, saying pH of 4 was "very acidic" and milk would "neutralise" that reading. Mr Myers says the nurse "did not get that wrong".
He says in the case of Child P, there can be a low pH reading with a lot of milk in the stomach. He says 14ml of milk was aspirated, and a pH reading of 3, and a later reading gives 20ml aspirate and a pH reading of 3.
DBM
Thanks Imnotthere - came back and posted simultaneously but have to go out again. I messaged you to say you need the link to the CS website on every single post - I got a terrible ticking off from a mod for not doing that, on another case!
www.chesterstandard.co.uk
Thanks Imnotthere - came back and posted simultaneously but have to go out again. I messaged you to say you need the link to the CS website on every single post - I got a terrible ticking off from a mod for not doing that, on another case!
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 28 - defence closing speech
The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…
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12:11pm
Mr Myers says Child G's CRP rating [a test to diagnose conditions which cause inflammation] had risen in the 24 hours after the projectile vomit, from 1 to 218. He says that is a sign Child G was developing an infection.
He says what Letby is alleged to have done is "incredibly speculative".
Mr Myers says Child G's CRP rating [a test to diagnose conditions which cause inflammation] had risen in the 24 hours after the projectile vomit, from 1 to 218. He says that is a sign Child G was developing an infection.
He says what Letby is alleged to have done is "incredibly speculative".
12:15pm
He says there are "vanishing amounts of time" for Letby to have done what she is alleged to have done, given how long the 2am feed takes to be administered and how long Letby had been with colleague Ailsa Simpson before they were both called over for the projectile vomiting incident at 2.15am.
He says there are "vanishing amounts of time" for Letby to have done what she is alleged to have done, given how long the 2am feed takes to be administered and how long Letby had been with colleague Ailsa Simpson before they were both called over for the projectile vomiting incident at 2.15am.
Is this the baby that her parents say changed and stopped looking at them after one of the events? He claims the brain damage happened at arrow park?
12:22pm
Mr Myers refers to the 6.05am 'profound desaturation' for Child G. 'NG aspirated as abdo appeared v large, ~100mls aspirated'.
He says the presumption of guilt is Letby did this. Alison Ventress had said, in cross-examination, this was most likely to be air.
He says Dr Stephen Brearey first gave evidence in the trial at this point. He said he "assumed it was fluid". Mr Myers says that is "extraordinary" and there's "no basis" for that.
Mr Myers refers to the 6.05am 'profound desaturation' for Child G. 'NG aspirated as abdo appeared v large, ~100mls aspirated'.
He says the presumption of guilt is Letby did this. Alison Ventress had said, in cross-examination, this was most likely to be air.
He says Dr Stephen Brearey first gave evidence in the trial at this point. He said he "assumed it was fluid". Mr Myers says that is "extraordinary" and there's "no basis" for that.
12:27pm
The note also refers to 'ETT removed at 0610. Thick secretions++ in mouth. Blood clot at end of ETT...Reintubated at 0615'.
Mr Myers says Child G was not getting air in due to a blood clot. He says Alison Ventress had agreed in cross-examination the blood clot had interfered with the ETT.
Dr Bohin had agreed, in evidence, blood clots can cause a desaturation, when describing a desaturation event for Child G on a different occasion.
Mr Myers says there was a failure to ventilate Child G for hours.
The note also refers to 'ETT removed at 0610. Thick secretions++ in mouth. Blood clot at end of ETT...Reintubated at 0615'.
Mr Myers says Child G was not getting air in due to a blood clot. He says Alison Ventress had agreed in cross-examination the blood clot had interfered with the ETT.
Dr Bohin had agreed, in evidence, blood clots can cause a desaturation, when describing a desaturation event for Child G on a different occasion.
Mr Myers says there was a failure to ventilate Child G for hours.
Maybe LL took a leaf out of Mr Myers' book - ie throwing lots of spaghetti against the wall in the hope that some of it sticks. JMO MOO
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