UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #3

[Sarahlou]

Isn't by proxy very different though. Ie causing harm to someone in your care, to essentially thrive off the drama/attention surrounding that, and then keep seeking it over and over again

Yes that is correct. I think one of the theories about Beverley Allitt (who killed children by injecting then with air and insulin) was that she had Munchausen by proxy.

 

[annpats]

Yes that is correct. I think one of the theories about Beverley Allitt (who killed children by injecting then with air and insulin) was that she had Munchausen by proxy.

Was Beverley Allitt ever diagnosed with any other psychiatric disorders?

I may do a little search and see what I can come up with.....

 

[rick shaw]

Its a sad indictment, that management had sufficient suspicion to move her to day shift.Still she continued. Those poor babies and parents , it feels patient safeguarding procedure ignored.If they exist?

 

[Marantz4250b]

Was Beverley Allitt ever diagnosed with any other psychiatric disorders?

I may do a little search and see what I can come up with.....

As SarahLou correctly says, one of the theories relating to her was MbP. She may have had that, or something of that nature, and I'm sure it was in the mix though but, I'm sure there were lots of other things going on with her.

Allitt was a deeply unpleasant person, she was known to have a history of violence having been abusive to a boyfriend; she had a short fuse with people in general; had a reputation for playing sick practical jokes and other things. After having been suspended she poisoned the family who took her in, including their dog!

She had LOADS going on with her dating back years. The MbP thing was the first thing mentioned in the early news reports and that is what is always associated as being the "cause" of her crimes. Yes, she was a gross attention seeker but the bottom line seems to be that she just enjoyed being sadistic.

 

[Powermjp]

If you look on the timeline of attacks if she did this, the timeline she did all this in the space of one year.

And seems like she had little control to stop, did she think she would never be caught?

It seems a crime that is easy to do, with the lack of cctv, these babies are so so vulnerable its very scary.

 

[Supernovae]

Yep, this has been mentioned several times on here now.

I tend to suspect that it's why lots of the parents have lawyers engaged (there is mention of this by the firm representing them) and that when the trial is concluded there are going to be dozens of law suits against the trust. Its already been stated by the prosecution that "sub-optimal" care was given as regards some of these babies. If it transpires that its more drastic in them not taking the proper measures when they had reason to believe that a serial killer was work then its going to be absolutely horrendous.

It's really a disconnect that the prosecution has to dance around. Their KC has to persuade the jury that these deaths were so obviously unnatural that they should convict this woman of murder, when most of the professionals didn't see it that way at the time, and their responses seem inexplicable in that new light. This is particularly true of the older charges where it seems like they're trying to impose a narrative on a fragmentary and imperfect record of events, from a combination of notes and fading memories. Often it's only a very brief note of a clinical interaction that puts LL as having had anything to do with some of the babies. As I said before they discard or not the notes and testimony when it suits.

He's doing a very good job of painting a very black story around it all but that's mostly what it is so far.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Good point and yes, my maths was off. Never been my strong point.

I am sure I'm not the only one who has noticed the number of multiples involved in this though. It seems very significant

It may be that NN multiples have lower average birth weights and a shorter average gestation than NN single births.

If this is the case, then multiples are likely to have a less well-developed physiology than NN single births. Therefore, they may be less resilient and more likely to succumb.

There are so many variables that need to be considered objectively, before making assumptions as to whether a base figure is significant or not.

MOO

 

[Gardenista]

Reading this case , came in with an open mind and trying to remain so but finding it quite difficult with some of the evidence presented.

Management moved LL onto day shift because of their suspicions ( unsure at this point if suspicions were of incompetence or malevolence) . Was LL informed of the suspicion surrounding her and the reason for a move to day shift? If so, to continue killing despite that suspicion/ concern being made clear to her is unbelievable due to how incriminating that looks for her...

On the other hand, moving her without saying why feels extremely unethical as they're basically waiting for another sudden/ unexplained death to confirm suspicion and a poor baby and their parents pay the price

No evidence has been presented. That won't happen until the defense has completed their opening argument.

 

[annpats]

And seems like she had little control to stop, did she think she would never be caught?

Yes and I think that's true of many serial killers....

 

[Jimbobdan86]

^ I'm struggling to get my head around this too.

I’m struggling to understand how doctors weren’t ready on hand with stomach pumps, treatments for insulin poisoning and other unusual measures, or in anyway allowed two more infants to die, if they were suspicious of LL at all!

 

[Jimbobdan86]

I’m new, hope I can post this link about ‘caregivers who kill’ that I read earlier. The Czech woman hanged for ‘paedophobia’ irrational hatred of kids was interesting. Some of the details are macabre, just as a heads up…

KILLER NURSES: 20 Caregivers Who Murdered Their Patients

“I didn’t kill the babies; the voices in my head did.”

thoughtcatalog.com

 

[Dcflag]

I would also like to make a point regarding the Facebook searches, and just ask people to remember that there's other reasons for these searches rather than just 1: Serial killer, 2: Obsessed/struggling to cope worker.

This sounds like an incredibly tough job to do, and I can't imagine being responsible for a baby that dies and then moving on to looking after a different baby the next day. It must be hard.

It's understandable to me that someone might make them searches as a way of coping with grief, and may not be done for entirely unhealthy/stalker/malevolent reasons.

Now that's not to say that makes this person not guilty, but just an important point to make I think.

It’s not often I have unique insight so I guess I’ll just come out and say it. My baby died in hospital. There were some lovely caregivers who’s actions during that time I’ll remember for the rest of my life because they were so compassionate.

Regardless, I’d feel violated if any of those caregivers then were searching me or my family up on social media, now or years after the fact. I just don’t think it’s ethical at all. It would bother me a whole lot. No I wouldn’t think they’d murdered my child, but I would question the motive.

Just the other side of the coin I guess.

Edit: as I’ve caught up now! I replied to this as for me I do think looking at both a caregivers perspective and a parents perspective is important in this situation because I think it’s relevant to decide if LL acted in sympathy (albeit perhaps wrongly) for example genuinely wanting to see how the families are doing post hospital stay or whether it shows a lack of empathy. If you lean towards a lack of empathy, it would mean there’s some form of gratuitous personal gain from searching these people on Facebook. For me I don’t see how this wouldn’t be relevant. However I think as I continued to catch up I can see the conversation was decided to perhaps be unnecessary.

 

[kittythehare]

It’s not often I have unique insight so I guess I’ll just come out and say it. My baby died in hospital. There were some lovely caregivers who’s actions during that time I’ll remember for the rest of my life because they were so compassionate.

Regardless, I’d feel violated if any of those caregivers then were searching me or my family up on social media, now or years after the fact. I just don’t think it’s ethical at all. It would bother me a whole lot. No I wouldn’t think they’d murdered my child, but I would question the motive.

Just the other side of the coin I guess.

I'm so sorry for your profound loss.
Thanks for being here.

 

[Dcflag]

I doubt the police asked them to specifically state what she said when she first walked in on them. It would be a broader ask about their interactions with her post baby's death. The fact they did remember that comment and her expression/attitude all these years later show it was memorable. And upsetting because saying someone was 'smiling and kept going on about it' isn't normally a positive connotation in the aftermath of your child's death. While they were bathing their deceased child in fact.

the words of the mum, "was smiling and kept going on about how she was present at [Child I']s first bath and how much [Child I] had loved it.”

To me… it’s the kind of thing a bereaved mother might say to others while bathing her deceased infant.

 

[merrypason]

To me… it’s the kind of thing a bereaved mother might say to others while bathing her deceased infant

I agree. That's why I thought it weird that LL was making that comment to the bereaved mother. What nurse tells a bereaved mother how much her child loved being bathed by the nurse - WHILE the mother is bathing that deceased child. All while smiling!

Cannot decide it's just a socially awkward comment or it was a power play against the mother.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

the defence needs to show that LL's actions were NOT criminal

The defence don't have to prove anything. The onus is on the Crown to prove guilt.


Basic principles of our system of law:

1. The presumption of innocence until proven guilty, according to law.

2. The right to a fair trial


Burden of Proof

Guilt must proven 'beyond reasonable doubt'. This means that a jury 'must be sure', in order to return a guilty verdict.

 

[notsure]

I’m struggling to understand how doctors weren’t ready on hand with stomach pumps, treatments for insulin poisoning and other unusual measures, or in anyway allowed two more infants to die, if they were suspicious of LL at all!

I guess it was just a suspicion, with no proof, and it was such a crazy idea, for a nurse to be harming babies...

 

[jiffajaffa31]

No evidence has been presented. That won't happen until the defense has completed their opening argument.

Ah , apologies, am genuinely not familiar with the correct terms. I assumed that the information presented in court such as referring to patient documents, quotes from parents, medical staff and LL would be referred to as evidence, is this simply just information at this point to support the initial opening argument?

 

[Dcflag]

I agree. That's why I thought it weird that LL was making that comment to the bereaved mother. What nurse tells a bereaved mother how much her child loved being bathed by the nurse - WHILE the mother is bathing that deceased child. All while smiling!

Cannot decide it's just a socially awkward comment or it was a power play against the mother.

I’ve been at work all day so only just caught up on todays posts in a massive chuck. I noticed someone mentioned munchausens by proxy? I don’t know much at all about it, but it kind of clicks for me? The comment to me really sounds like something a grieving mother would say, does LL see herself as the victim in these situations? Does she almost see their deaths as her loss?

I don’t know, I feel like this is the biggest insight so far into LL.

 

[yellowxo]

I think she will get not guilty or hung jury purely because of her defence barrister. Without a good defence she would probably be toast. He has a very good track record of securing not guilty verdicts I don't think he would have took the case if he didn't think he had a good chance as it would affect his career.