UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #3

[gc105]

Thinking out loud again…

The alleged crimes all took place within a 54 week period.

Assuming LL worked full time hours (37.5), this equates to approximately 175 shifts over that time-frame. Minus AL of minimum 22 shifts. So LL would have worked approximately 150 shifts during this period (assuming so sickness absence and no excess/bank shifts).

Deaths/near-fatal collapses within the indictment occurred on 20 different dates LL was on shift. Therefore there was death/near-fatal incident approximately once per 7.5 of LL shifts.

Whilst respiratory arrest/respiratory support is a more ‘common’ occurrence on NNU, for extensive CPR involving Adrenalin etc (both successful & unsuccessful) to be required so often seems high? Anybody in this field who can shed any light on how often this happens on NNU?

 

[kittythehare]

.

No.
We know nothing.

 

[Rusty Braincells]

Hi. New user.

I’ve had cognitive behavioural therapy for anxiety. A huge part of the therapy involved almost exactly what you’ve said: noting down all of my terrible fears and what would happen if they came to fruition. It was part of an exercise I’d do daily when my anxiety was at its worst, and it’s something I still do occasionally now.

I still have all of those notes - some of them on scraps of paper - under my bed. If they were found, they would look very dark out of context.

This is one of the more plausible explanations for the notes in my opinion. Whether LL was having therapy or not, she could say she wrote out her darkest fears or feelings. I don’t think “I didn’t write them, they were planted, I was writing a story” etc would wash and I see they’re not trying this.

 

[JTS101]

Hi. New user.

I’ve had cognitive behavioural therapy for anxiety. A huge part of the therapy involved almost exactly what you’ve said: noting down all of my terrible fears and what would happen if they came to fruition. It was part of an exercise I’d do daily when my anxiety was at its worst, and it’s something I still do occasionally now.

I still have all of those notes - some of them on scraps of paper - under my bed. If they were found, they would look very dark out of context.

Thank you for your comments tmm. I hope everything goes well with your anxiety

 

[Marantz4250b]

Wow. The defence didn't even try to imply the note wasn't written by her.

They wouldn't though if she actually wrote it. They'd question why she wrote it and the motivations behind it.

 

[SOMETHINGWILLDO]

But did you try to remain impartial until you heard all the evidence for and all the evidence against?

Or did you get a feeling right away?

I've never done just service and I don't think I want to.

Yes, absolutely.
Being in court on jury duty brings another level to the cases. In my case, we handled bagged evidence while in court, physical items, at this point, with the overwhelming evidence and proof, there was no doubt that the person was guilty, which he was found so at the end.
I would say that the jury at this point are already struggling given the information provided to them, photographs and written confessions EDIT: - a lot of discussion goes on at lunch time between all the jury, you're allocated a special room where you all sit together to discuss and eat lunch.

 

[mucbetam]

I suspect this post will not be popular.

Because of the reports of doctors and the nurse so-called using Facebook (I am not sure if other social media accounts have been mentioned) I reflected about the data and confidentiality issues, but also whether or not it is appropriate to promote a culture in the workplace of using social media like Facebook for work related communications especially in a clini care context. don't get me wrong I can see the advantages..

I recognise that different organisations will have different cultures, and that there can be a blurring of lines.

But ultimately, I find it wholly inappropriate in the context of clinical care that Facebook is used for work comms. There may be no alternative, but there really should be and I imagine, is. Texting by work phone springs to mind.

Off record conversations on social media are not really off record. I therefore consulted the social media policy of what I guess is the relevant CCG. Link: https://www.cheshireccg.nhs.uk/media/2365/nhs-cheshire-ccg-social-media-policy-june-21.pdf

I was somewhat surprised about the lack of focus on colleague to colleague communications but it is defined under IM and therefore is in scope of the policy.

However only one line is particularly relevant - although it is perhaps not written for the context of what we are sleuthing here.

Note 7.2 which relates to only use your work profile for work related activities and not your personal one. However the policy also leans on allowing for staff discretion in social media's use from the outset, and that effectively covers staff's back by and large in my estimation.

It sounds strict, but I believe the policy lacks robustness, and should be clearer on care related communications and also that professional care communications should not be occurring on this way. Let's face it one minute you could be talking about confidential information about a patient, which could be identifiable even if names not used.

The next you're flirting about Saturday night.

One minute your inviting you colleagues to contact you by Facebook about work because "it's the best way to reach me", the next your providing an outlet to an alleged murderer.

That's if you don't keep a separate work and personal profile. But I doubt this is followed.

 

[Legally Bland]

2:14pm

The jury is now coming back in to hear the rest of the defence case outline.

2:16pm

The matters leading up up to the event
Mr Myers refers to the medical situation and condition of the children involved.
Sometimes that includes 'the ability of doctors and nurses to spot' signs of problems in the build-up to the event.

2:17pm

Sometimes that would be a problem if the unit was "understaffed and overstretched," Mr Myers said.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Whitehall 1212]

This is about the time she was standing over a baby? when the Dr walked in and saw the breathing tube disconnected and the alarm not sounding and her just standing there. Was the alarm broken? if not, why was it not sounding? If she turned it off then why wasn't she helping the baby? Why didn't she reconnect the breathing tube? this event on its own is suspicous, not 'unremarkable'.

What it most certainly is.....is not proven. The evidence has not been examined yet!

 

[Legally Bland]

2:19pm

The defence say in relation to the evidence, "we have to be careful of the assumption or theory of guilt," and the "dangers of opinion" in relation to the conclusions of "deliberate harm".
"We say that if an expert sets out within expectation a suspicion of harm being done, that may make it more likely they will reach conclusions which are harm based...rather than innocent explanations.
"When there is no explanation, there is a danger of the expert filling the absence of an explanation with one...by the prosecution."

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I'll be surprised if we don't see one or two drop out due to the mental effects of this sort of thing day after day after day!

Does anyone know what support jurors get? I assume their every need is catered to and they get psychological support and wellbeing help? Are they living in a hotel or do they return home every day? Are there any other precedents for a case of this type? Maybe Beverly Allit? What happened with her jury?

 

[Legally Bland]

2:20pm

"If someone looks for something, and has something in mind, they will look for that."
"Confirmation bias," added Mr Myers.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I would guess she never expected her property to be searched. Same with the handwritten notes lying around.

I guess she didn't bank on being arrested, either because she is innocent or didn't suspect the police would become involved.

 

[Legally Bland]

2:21pm

"There is plenty of disagreement" between the prosecution expert evidence and the defence.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I assume forensics would have already proven it was. The barrister would not waste or disrespect the court's time by going through a loop of trying to evade that which is already proven. If the note(s) were located in her private home and she openly states she wrote them, it would be quite bizarre for her defence to go on a different route.

It's probably no more than she has admitted in interview that she wrote them, and it is not contested.

 

[Tanzanite]

It's always a privilege to read such an objective, considered and honest post, such as yours @Tanzanite[/USET
[/QUOTE]

Thank you, that's very kind of you. I get a bit anxious about posting sometimes - experienced posters taking the time to encourage newbies on a forum like this is really appreciated.

 

[Music2022]

What it most certainly is.....is not proven. The evidence has not been examined yet!

I doubt there is much evidence they can show to prove what happened at the moment by the incubator. It seems like it’s going to be his word against hers, unless there’s video of what she was doing at that moment.

 

[Legally Bland]

2:24pm

Medical evidence
Mr Myers tells the court that sometimes deteriorations are unexplained, and if Lucy Letby cannot provide an explanation, that does not make her responsible.
For every count, Letby is "adamant" she has "done nothing wrong" to cause any deliberate harm to any of the babies in the case, Mr Myers adds.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Marantz4250b]

A duty solicitor is available at court.

As I said I'm leaning towards LL and her parents shelling out a small fortune on her defense, with the trial expected to last 6 months.

I think you must be misreading things here. She gets the defence for free.

 

[Dcflag]

His statement - "There is a question to whether this hospital should have been caring for this number of children."

Seems the defence will focus on discrediting the medical experts/reviews and saying that everyone in the unit/hospital is responsible so LL isn't responsible.

Will come down to who and what is most believable. If they find prosecution's evidence more believable, or defence's rebuttal more believable.

However, that note will really impact the jury. Because you can have two different medical opinions of what happened to those babies, but when there's a note saying things like "I killed them on purpose" (or whatever it was), it's hard to ignore. Because the defence wasn't in the room with her at the time to correctly interpret her thinking behind it. The words are clear and direct, and that should be more powerful.

But to support a full hospital failing and not just an individual person failing, they’re going to need to show these similar type deaths on the watch of other clinicians. Because if they can’t, then it’s not a full hospital failing.