UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

[merrypason]

Tbh, putting aside whether she's guilty of murder or not - it's made me so cross on behalf of these different parents that she's managed to shock so many of them at a time their new born babies were dying. It's made me feel emotional at what they must have gone through at the time - and how important bed side manner is in these cases. This instance of acting like baby C was dead when he wasn't, the other one where she fobbed off the mum and lied about her visit in the notes, the one where she made that thoughtless comment to a mum bathing her dead child, the surprise she expressed to a paramedic that a child was alive rather than dead.

I can't understand why someone so lacking in empathy for the victims would want to be an ITU neo natal nurse in the first place. All this talk about the fact there wasn't team spririt after the deaths, yet she's so lacking in self awareness on how she's making the parents feel. And that's why the checking up on them on FB is even weirder.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Presumably they will say she changed methods to try and avoid detection?

That’s a weak case. Two vessel related air embolisms, two insulin poisonings and 13 being stomach air embolisms. I struggle to see how they could build the connection. An argument they could make is this being the ONLY WAY Lucy had an opportunity to cause harm or kill with a reduced chance of detection. That’s one I suppose, try and make out she is a demented but smiling, lethal minded but professional homicidal maniac hell bent on killing babies at first opportunity. I don’t think there can be any other reward here for a killer other than anything gained from the murders themselves. Assuming guilt. Doesn’t seem to be a desire for attention, it’s obviously not related to material wealth or gain, not status related, no personal connection in terms of grievance so your left with sensory reward. In for a thrill. Not sure how they will paint it tbh.

 

[merrypason]

These anecdotes seem too vague to hold significance IMO. We don’t know if either of these nurses was in fact LL, and we don’t know what standard procedure was in these situations on the ward. Eg, was the baby likely to be more comfortable in the ventilated basket? Etc.

I’d expect all nurses to be able to tell that the infant wasn’t going to make it after such a long period of resuscitation with no pulse. This was essential info for the mother, to allow her to make a judgement on calling for a baptism, so may have been entirely appropriate (and/or the actions of another nurse entirely).

The parents have used the words 'shocked'. And explained that the nurse back tracked to defuse the situation. They also believe it was likely Letby, according to the father's statement.

Quite frankly, I think there's is the only opinion that matters. It's one thing to question medical testimony, quite another to question parents' statement about what transpired and how they felt at their baby's death.

They are the victims.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Daily mail? A different account of the same situation was posted earlier with no mention of a description of the nurse or a suggestion it was Lucy letby.

 

[merrypason]

Daily mail? A different account of the same situation was posted earlier with no mention of a description of the nurse or a suggestion it was Lucy letby.

The live streams also didn't post any details about the conversation. The DM has been referenced in these threads many times as having more coverage than the live stream as they do a round up of the day.

It would be contempt of court, to quote verbatim from a trial as they have if it wasn't the truth. And we know, as with Sky news and the blunder with publishing a child's name, the court take this seriously.

 

[JosieJo]

These anecdotes seem too vague to hold significance IMO. We don’t know if either of these nurses was in fact LL, and we don’t know what standard procedure was in these situations on the ward. Eg, was the baby likely to be more comfortable in the ventilated basket? Etc.

I’d expect all nurses to be able to tell that the infant wasn’t going to make it after such a long period of resuscitation with no pulse. This was essential info for the mother, to allow her to make a judgement on calling for a baptism, so may have been entirely appropriate (and/or the actions of another nurse entirely).

I have always got the impression that parents usually held their babies whilst they died ..obviously unless they didn't want to for some reason

To reply "yes I think so" when asked if the baby was going to die I feel most nurses might say something like "we are trying everything we can but it is a very serious situation" until the Dr's or Practitioner came to speak to the family

 

[merrypason]

Also if the defence thought this suggestion it was LL was wrong, they would have challenged it/cross examined the parents.

They haven't. That means they have accepted the prosecution's indication and insinuation that this nurse was LL.

That is all the jury will hear.

 

[JosieJo]

That’s a weak case. Two vessel related air embolisms, two insulin poisonings and 13 being stomach air embolisms. I struggle to see how they could build the connection. An argument they could make is this being the ONLY WAY Lucy had an opportunity to cause harm or kill with a reduced chance of detection. That’s one I suppose, try and make out she is a demented but smiling, lethal minded but professional homicidal maniac hell bent on killing babies at first opportunity. I don’t think there can be any other reward here for a killer other than anything gained from the murders themselves. Assuming guilt. Doesn’t seem to be a desire for attention, it’s obviously not related to material wealth or gain, not status related, no personal connection in terms of grievance so your left with sensory reward. In for a thrill. Not sure how they will paint it tbh.

I dont think it's a weak case at all ...I see it as something someone would do to avoid detection..I see it as quite calculating ...its obvious that if someone used the exact same method to many times in a relatively short space of time it would be far more likely to raise suspicon more quickly

 

[JosieJo]

Also if the defence thought this suggestion it was LL was wrong, they would have challenged it/cross examined the parents.

They haven't. That means they have accepted the prosecution's indication and insinuation that this nurse was LL.

That is all the jury will hear.

I agree ...they are agreed statements so it appears the defence are not directly challenging that the nurse was LL

I saw a ITV news recap this evening and the reporter was live talking about the court today and she said that the father indicated the nurse was LL

 

[Sweeper2000]

I dont think it's a weak case at all ...I see it as something someone would do to avoid detection..I see it as quite calculating ...its obvious that if someone used the exact same method to many times in a relatively short space of time it would be far more likely to raise suspison more quickly

Yeh it’s just that with if either 13 or 15 of 17 cases involve embolisms there isn’t much of a change in method. If you count the first two involving vessel related air embolism and the rest stomach air embolism together. That’s why they might say it was the only way someone could get access to children in hope of killing them and potentially avoid detection. The only way is through those “lines”. It’s why I say it’s a weak proposition as she might as well be snatching kids off the street. I might argue that 17 in just over a year is allot as well.

 

[Charlot123]

“I killed them”. You can kill someone accidentally.

“I killed then on purpose” literally means I killed them deliberately.

There’s actually less ambiguity about the phrase she’s used.

Now, whatever the reason she’s written that is open to debate. But what the phrase means isn’t in doubt IMO.

And I’m confident that will be reflected in how her defence approach that when it’s argued in court.

I think if people are prone to writing down their thoughts, or keeping diaries, then, after a police interrogation without a lawyer being present, and in a very anxious frame of mind, people might write whatever; it is neither the proof nor the admission of guilt. Anxiety, fear may generate such disjointed thoughts! I don't think this note is, or can be viewed, as the confession. Maybe it can produce yet one more testimony that everyone should be requesting a lawyer in such situations.

BTW, what do UK laws say about it? Can she refuse to answer unless she is provided with a lawyer?

 

[Tortoise]

That’s a weak case. Two vessel related air embolisms, two insulin poisonings and 13 being stomach air embolisms. <RSBM>

This is not an accurate summary.

Other allegations include (child J) airway obstruction/suffocation, (child K) dislodging the breathing tube, (child N) inflicted injury to the throat and (child O) inflicted liver trauma.

 

[Charlot123]

This is not an accurate summary.

Other allegations include (child J) airway obstruction/suffocation, (child K) dislodging the breathing tube, (child N) inflicted injury to the throat and (child O) inflicted liver trauma.

One option, LL. Another one, very disorganized unit and hospital where the right hand doesn’t know what the left is doing.

 

[arrogantcat]

I agree ...they are agreed statements so it appears the defence are not directly challenging that the nurse was LL

I saw a ITV news recap this evening and the reporter was live talking about the court today and she said that the father indicated the nurse was LL

Do you have a link to that at all?
The DM article shared just says “a nurse he thought may have been Letby” which sounds much more tenuous.

With baby A and the bath comments the parent was very clear when it was LL. The language here was so much more ambiguous, even describing “a woman with a ponytail”, etc. It seems to leave room for doubt.

That isn’t me questioning the parents’ experience, btw. Just the wording of the agreed evidence.

 

[Parker Knoll]

God this is brutal.

 

[Charlot123]

This is where I would be interested in "character witnesses". To find out whether answering "yes, he is dying" was intense cruelty or just mere bluntness that is typical for some people, and maybe, was common for LL?

Maybe LL is not the master of consoling words? To add, in my observation, doctors and nurses working in ICUs don't necessarily enjoy talking to relatives. They work very hard but are often not the bearers of good news. How hard it is on them? The other side is also true, they don't get as many "thanks" and flowers as, say, surgeons, and the hardest work in medicine falls on ICU staff.

I don't know about the spirit of NICUs. Maybe slightly different, but still, they are ICUs. So if someone tells me that people working there are more straightforward, I won't be surprised. It doesn't mean that they don't cry afterwards, but perhaps it is hard to find the right words when they are losing a baby?

In general, they are very smart, capable and caring.

I don't know how this case will end, I am a tad split here.

 

[JosieJo]

Do you have a link to that at all?
The DM article shared just says “a nurse he thought may have been Letby” which sounds much more tenuous.

With baby A and the bath comments the parent was very clear when it was LL. The language here was so much more ambiguous, even describing “a woman with a ponytail”, etc. It seems to leave room for doubt.

That isn’t me questioning the parents’ experience, btw. Just the wording of the agreed evidence.

If you watch from around 10 min 46 sec ...the reporter uses slightly stronger language "a nurse the parents believe was LL"

ITV Evening News - Wednesday 26 Oct 6.30pm

National and international news with reports and analysis from ITV's Correspondents.

www.itv.com

 

[Tortoise]

If you watch from around 10 min 46 sec ...the reporter uses slightly stronger language "a nurse the parents believe was LL)

ITV Evening News - Wednesday 26 Oct 6.30pm

National and international news with reports and analysis from ITV's Correspondents.

www.itv.com

And there was this in the live updates, although it's never said which of the two nurses said these things to them -

2:59pm
The family were taken into a room, where there were two nurses there, one of whom the father has since been able to identify as Lucy Letby.

 

[BuzzC]

I think if people are prone to writing down their thoughts, or keeping diaries, then, after a police interrogation without a lawyer being present, and in a very anxious frame of mind, people might write whatever; it is neither the proof nor the admission of guilt. Anxiety, fear may generate such disjointed thoughts! I don't think this note is, or can be viewed, as the confession. Maybe it can produce yet one more testimony that everyone should be requesting a lawyer in such situations.

BTW, what do UK laws say about it? Can she refuse to answer unless she is provided with a lawyer?

No, I agree. It isn’t proof/a confession as it stands because there are contradictory statements of innocence as well. It will need exploration by both sides later. My point was that, IMO, there can be no other interpretation of what that specific sentence - taken in isolation - meant. Whether it’s true or not - I just don’t know at this point.

LL would not have to answer any questions put to her by the police at all. And she would have been entitled to a solicitor/lawyer during questioning as well.

 

[ShireChe]

It's difficult to assess if this is of any importance without full context and what the usual process would be. Clearly from the father's first paragraph they knew their baby was in a serious way and unlikely to make it. What was the usual procedure for breaking such news on that unit? Would it normally be a nurse or would a consultant/more senior figure be expected to do that. Unclear communication is easy on a busy and understaffed unit.

Needless to say..this case must be absolutely horrendous for all the families involved, having to relive all their trauma.