UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
God this is brutal.
It really is. I don’t have a child and have never been pregnant, but a close friend has gone through IVF this year and knowing the journey she’s took just to conceive, the fear throughout pregnancy, birth plans still being kind of up in the air and nothing definitive even with the date drawing closer. As an outsider I’ve felt constantly worried for my friend and her baby, but to be the parent in this scenario? It’s hard to not cry reading their grief. These families have gone through and still are going through every parents worst nightmare. Horrific
 
I have been thinking about LL's notes and why she might have written such words if she were innocent of the crimes of which she is accused. An innocent person accused of serious crimes will sometimes be offered a "way out" under intensive police interrogation. "Admit to what you did, we know you did it, if you confess it will be much better for you". It is well documented that numerous miscarriages of justice have been caused by a suspect, convinced that they were going to be found guilty anyway, deciding to admit guilt. They will then try to say what they believe the interrogators want them to say. Sometimes, the interrogator's ideas of details of what actually happened later turn out to have been definitely wrong.

Anyway, if you are considering admitting guilt, you could experiment with the words you would say. A reliable confession to a murder includes information which only the actual murderer could have known, and which was not previously known by investigators.
 
It really is. I don’t have a child and have never been pregnant, but a close friend has gone through IVF this year and knowing the journey she’s took just to conceive, the fear throughout pregnancy, birth plans still being kind of up in the air and nothing definitive even with the date drawing closer. As an outsider I’ve felt constantly worried for my friend and her baby, but to be the parent in this scenario? It’s hard to not cry reading their grief. These families have gone through and still are going through every parents worst nightmare. Horrific
Just unthinkably awful for them all.

And there’s really no outcome here that brings peace. If LL is guilty, they live with the knowledge that their baby could have lived.

Even if LL is found not guilty, I can’t imagine that doubt and all of that wondering will ever be fully extinguished.

This whole ordeal and the trauma will live with them always, regardless of the verdict of the case. My thoughts are with them constantly.
 
I have been thinking about LL's notes and why she might have written such words if she were innocent of the crimes of which she is accused. An innocent person accused of serious crimes will sometimes be offered a "way out" under intensive police interrogation. "Admit to what you did, we know you did it, if you confess it will be much better for you". It is well documented that numerous miscarriages of justice have been caused by a suspect, convinced that they were going to be found guilty anyway, deciding to admit guilt. They will then try to say what they believe the interrogators want them to say. Sometimes, the interrogator's ideas of details of what actually happened later turn out to have been definitely wrong.

Anyway, if you are considering admitting guilt, you could experiment with the words you would say. A reliable confession to a murder includes information which only the actual murderer could have known, and which was not previously known by investigators.

In English law, such a confession would be “unreliable” and would not be admitted as evidence.

If the police have offered her “a way out” then I’d expect her legal reps to have driven a bus through that - either being present (as they should have been), or when they found out about it. They didn’t bring anything up during their opening arguments, so we’ll see if they do when it’s presented in evidence.
 
No, I agree. It isn’t proof/a confession as it stands because there are contradictory statements of innocence as well. It will need exploration by both sides later. My point was that, IMO, there can be no other interpretation of what that specific sentence - taken in isolation - meant. Whether it’s true or not - I just don’t know at this point.

LL would not have to answer any questions put to her by the police at all. And she would have been entitled to a solicitor/lawyer during questioning as well.


It’s easy to determine the meaning of that sentence as a whole. “I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them”. She is obviously questioning her aptitude as a nurse, the word “good” isn’t a reference to character it’s a reference to her nursing standards. If you did take that sentence in isolation you could either think she is blaming herself for potential failings at work or if taken literally “I killed them because I have feelings of inadequacy”. Kind of blaming the babies for her own perceived failings. Considering the context and other content in the note the former is the more likely option especially considering the denial of guilt that preceded that sentence. That sentence changes completely with the words “because I’m not good to care for them”. An admission of guilt isn’t followed by a reason for the act following an accusation of guilt. “Did you murder them”? “Yes because I’m not good enough”. the words “because I’m not good enough” would be said to provide a reason for the act, kind of an explanation for why. If that sentence just said “I killed them deliberately” or “I murdered them” there is no other option of possible interpretation. That is the language used by someone who has NO DOUBT about whether or not they are Guilty as charged.
 
By Mark Dowling
Share




Trial of Lucy Letby continues today (Thursday, October 27)
Prosecution giving evidence in case of Child C, who they say was murdered
Letby denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more
9:25am
The prosecution began giving evidence for Child C on Wednesday. Child C was a premature baby boy who died at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit in June 2015. The prosecution say he was murdered by Lucy Letby.

On Wednesday, statements from Child C's parents were read out to the court: Lucy Letby trial: Baby allegedly murdered by nurse stopped breathing ‘without warning’

9:23am
Here is our coverage from Wednesday, October 26: Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, October 26

9:23am
The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, continues today (Thursday, October 27).

We will be bringing you updates throughout the day.

 
It’s easy to determine the meaning of that sentence as a whole. “I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them”. She is obviously questioning her aptitude as a nurse, the word “good” isn’t a reference to character it’s a reference to her nursing standards. If you did take that sentence in isolation you could either think she is blaming herself for potential failings at work or if taken literally “I killed them because I have feelings of inadequacy”. Kind of blaming the babies for her own perceived failings. Considering the context and other content in the note the former is the more likely option especially considering the denial of guilt that preceded that sentence. That sentence changes completely with the words “because I’m not good to care for them”. An admission of guilt isn’t followed by a reason for the act following an accusation of guilt. “Did you murder them”? “Yes because I’m not good enough”. the words “because I’m not good enough” would be said to provide a reason for the act, kind of an explanation for why. If that sentence just said “I killed them deliberately” or “I murdered them” there is no other option of possible interpretation. That is the language used by someone who has NO DOUBT about whether or not they are Guilty as charged.

I don’t think we’re ever going to agree on this.

A couple of points though:

You say: “an admission of guilt isn’t followed by a reason for the act”. Why not? Why wouldn’t someone say, as an example: “I murdered them because they had an affair with my wife”? I could interpret LL’s statement thus: “I killed then on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them” as “I killed them on purpose because I’m an unskilled nurse and the babies would have died anyway, so I was putting them out their misery/ending their suffering”.

LL will have no doubt about whether she murdered them or not. She will know what happened. Her language isn’t confused. Her language is contradictory - in that she says both “I haven’t done anything wrong” and “I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them”. Both statements are clear in their meaning (to me anyway).

Edit: to remove something that’s against the rules.
 
Last edited:
I don’t think we’re ever going to agree on this.

A couple of points though:

You say: “an admission of guilt isn’t followed by a reason for the act”. Why not? Why wouldn’t someone say, as an example: “I murdered them because they had an affair with my wife”? I could interpret LL’s statement thus: “I killed then on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them” as “I killed them on purpose because I’m an unskilled nurse and the babies would have died anyway, so I was putting them out their misery/ending their suffering”.

LL will have no doubt about whether she murdered them or not. She will know what happened. Her language isn’t confused. Her language is contradictory - in that she says both “I haven’t done anything wrong” and “I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them”. Both statements are clear in their meaning (to me anyway).

Can I ask you a question? Do you think LL is guilty?
I thought we aren't supposed to say whether we think she is guilty or or not as per many admin warnings.
 
The discussion about the note is interesting but going around in circles a bit (not meaning that as a criticism though). We will have more context when it's introduced into evidence at some point.

I have been turning it over and over myself and it's really hard not saying exactly what I think about it and what I think it suggests. Looking at the placement of the words and the style of the writing of the different passages with words squeezed in, it does seem like the writer may have written some words, then added more later on.
 
It’s easy to determine the meaning of that sentence as a whole. “I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them”. <respectfully snipped by me>
Actually the whole sentence under discussion reads -

"I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them + I am a horrible evil person"
 
I don’t think we’re ever going to agree on this.

A couple of points though:

You say: “an admission of guilt isn’t followed by a reason for the act”. Why not? Why wouldn’t someone say, as an example: “I murdered them because they had an affair with my wife”? I could interpret LL’s statement thus: “I killed then on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them” as “I killed them on purpose because I’m an unskilled nurse and the babies would have died anyway, so I was putting them out their misery/ending their suffering”.

LL will have no doubt about whether she murdered them or not. She will know what happened. Her language isn’t confused. Her language is contradictory - in that she says both “I haven’t done anything wrong” and “I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them”. Both statements are clear in their meaning (to me anyway).


Agree on everything you say except the clarity of the supposed admission of guilt if that sentence was taken in isolation. Yeh that’s my point as well you would only add an explanation in the hope that it ameliorates the wrongness of the act. If it was an admission of guilt you wouldn’t call into question your aptitude as a caregiver ie professional you would say it was because of your mental health and use that as the amelioration. Saying I killed them “because they slept with my wife” is an amelioration of guilt as a wrong has been perceived by the accused not the same as saying “I killed them because I’m not good enough which is saying “I’m just not a good care giver and I know that and my knowledge of these failings means I am culpable in guilt” or “I am not good enough to be a nurse”.

In answer to your question of guilt I am really not sure especially this early. I am looking at it through the lens of trying to bring enough pieces together to build a picture of who Lucy is in terms of her character, the likelihood that she did knowingly administer air embolisms and other acts in hope of it being fatal and her possible motive. Currently have no reason or evidence to assume a motive other than killing for gratification and that at this point isn’t on the cards. Nothing at all to really give Lucy motivation for doing it in the first place. You would have to be a real psychopath to deceive so many people and to kill babies, that would be the worst anyone is capable of and it’s not looking like she has that character seemingly at all. I don’t take the munchausen by proxy theory as there is nothing to suggest attention seeking behaviour or behaviour consistent with someone deliberately causing harm in an effort to elicit attention or adoration. That being ruled out your left with thrill killing, that being at the very end of extremes with nothing to suggest it it’s not likely. IMO.

Edited.

Yes it’s the self contradiction that points at doubt, the polarity of guilt is obvious but when one contradicts oneself it suggests doubt, as in the middle ground between guilt and innocence of murder being it happening by mistake. Considering she would without a doubt be aware if she had committed murder she wouldn’t entertain the idea that these things happened by mistake.

I’m trying to look at it as well from both angles, guilty or not and trying to put myself in her shoes and then figure out what I would be thinking that would make me say the specific things she did in that note. That’s why I would use the other writing to build a picture that provides the context.


Sorry my writing seems to have been included in the quote, drop it down to read.
 
Last edited:
The discussion about the note is interesting but going around in circles a bit (not meaning that as a criticism though). We will have more context when it's introduced into evidence at some point.

I have been turning it over and over myself and it's really hard not saying exactly what I think about it and what I think it suggests. Looking at the placement of the words and the style of the writing of the different passages with words squeezed in, it does seem like the writer may have written some words, then added more later on.
I am sorry. I did say I was bowing out and then came back to respond, so I apologise. I do feel that some arguments being put forward are heavily skewed because of predetermined opinions but I guess that’s to be expected on such forums, especially with such an emotive case.

I’m new to this forum, but I’m engaged with this trial as a father of a young child and with close family who are involved in healthcare in similar roles to LL. My overriding hope is that these children and their families get justice - whoever is to blame (if anyone actually is) and that lessons are learned.
 
I am sorry. I did say I was bowing out and then came back to respond, so I apologise. I do feel that some arguments being put forward are heavily skewed because of predetermined opinions but I guess that’s to be expected on such forums, especially with such an emotive case.

I’m new to this forum, but I’m engaged with this trial as a father of a young child and with close family who are involved in healthcare in similar roles to LL. My overriding hope is that these children and their families get justice - whoever is to blame (if anyone actually is) and that lessons are learned.
No need to apologise :)
 
The discussion about the note is interesting but going around in circles a bit (not meaning that as a criticism though). We will have more context when it's introduced into evidence at some point.

I have been turning it over and over myself and it's really hard not saying exactly what I think about it and what I think it suggests. Looking at the placement of the words and the style of the writing of the different passages with words squeezed in, it does seem like the writer may have written some words, then added more later on.
The discussion about the note is interesting but going around in circles a bit (not meaning that as a criticism though). We will have more context when it's introduced into evidence at some point.

I have been turning it over and over myself and it's really hard not saying exactly what I think about it and what I think it suggests. Looking at the placement of the words and the style of the writing of the different passages with words squeezed in, it does seem like the writer may have written some words, then added more later on.

Yes I believe there is three phases of writing, the first phase is titled “not good enough” and what is written in this phase is in vertical alignment with the left hand margin and finishes with “I am evil I did this”

The next phase written after the first in the right hand margin and squeezed in suggesting it was written after the first phase begins with “I am an awful person” the exact end of this phase is difficult to determine but I believe ends with “what this has done” and the last phase is bunched up write next to the right hand margin and is the words in bold denoting the emotions. The only exception being the words “killing me” which is on the left hand side.
All in all it just sounds like an expulsion of unwanted thoughts to me at least.
 
It's difficult to assess if this is of any importance without full context and what the usual process would be. Clearly from the father's first paragraph they knew their baby was in a serious way and unlikely to make it. What was the usual procedure for breaking such news on that unit? Would it normally be a nurse or would a consultant/more senior figure be expected to do that. Unclear communication is easy on a busy and understaffed unit.

Needless to say..this case must be absolutely horrendous for all the families involved, having to relive all their trauma.

It is never a nurse's job to make an official pronouncement of death. Only the person accountable and responsible for the patient's medical treatment can do that. And LL would absolutely have know that given the number of years she worked on that unit and the fact the defence said she was always professional.

The ICU has 1-2 beds in it max. She clearly wasn't that overworked or they weren't that understaffed because she'd spent time 20mins before, whatsapping colleagues to discuss lack of team spirit and what used to happen in her previous hospital. They said the message conversation lasted from 9.48 to 11pm while she was on duty. Where does someone get this kind of time to have text convos if it was so understaffed?

She wasn't even supposed to be in that room - argued with her supervisor to go into the room, and then complained about lack of team spirit when she was told no. The defence argued she was dedicated to her job - I'm not sure she was actually dedicated to her patients, more just the job itself.

The parents also talked about how supporting another nurse Joanne Williams was - so clearly other nurses did make them feel at ease.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
74
Guests online
460
Total visitors
534

Forum statistics

Threads
608,240
Messages
18,236,716
Members
234,325
Latest member
davenotwayne
Back
Top