UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

[merrypason]

It’s interesting to try and read these messages with a neutral mind. The Prosecution presumably want to paint a picture of her being overly-concerned or fishing for attention, and they certainly can lend themselves to that sort of interpretation.

But I wonder, if we were seeing these messages out of this context - not knowing that they were sent by a nurse accused of murdering children - if people would still see them as sinister. Or whether it might seem quite normal for somebody to be reaching out to her friends when struggling with a really hard week at work, and quite appropriate that she kept remembering that the parents’ pain was far more than her own.

To me personally, this is a bit of a problem with a lot of the LL-specific evidence so far in this case. The note, the FB searches, the slightly off comments to parents - all of these things could be entirely innocent acts.

If any members of the Jury have done similar things - repeat searched clients on Facebook, documented their panicked thoughts, said the wrong thing in a hard moment at work - they’re likely to take the more sympathetic interpretation.

FWIW I still have no strong opinion as to the guilt of the accused. It really does feel far too early to say.

I do think in any other profession discussing patient or victim details on whatsapp and outside work on unsecured devices would lead to suspension for a time. It's really lacking in empathy to share details about what grieving parents are doing, the size of their baby etc with so many unconnected people - via whatsapp. Some jobs come with the added responsibility of the trust placed in you by people of their most intimate and private moments - so you can't treat it like you would office gossip. You find more private ways of dealing with grief.

If this was a gynae discussing details about your vagina with colleagues not involved in your treatment, would you really be ok with that? Or knowing someone had shared far and wide how traumatised you were by your parent's death? All by text? Or your therapist was sharing details of your childhood trauma with mates on whatsapp when describing a tough week?

To me if someone just told me about these messages or if a colleague of mine was messaging in this way - I would have a word. Nothing to do with being accused of murder. It just paints a picture of someone who doesn't seem to realise her patients and their families are human beings - not just a job lot.

 

[Tortoise]

12:43pm

The reviewing doctor suggested to "hold off feeds" for now and review in the afternoon if the aspirates did not get any worse.

12:45pm

Ben Myers KC, for Letby's defence, is now asking questions to Dr Ogden.
He refers to the decision about which hospital Child C should have been placed in.
Liverpool Women's Hospital offered Level 3 neonatal care, with the Countess of Chester Hospital offering Level 2 care at the time.

12:46pm

Dr Ogden said she "believed" the minimum weight for Level 2 care centres to treat babies was 800g - the birth weight of Child C.
Mr Myers: "He was right on the borderline of what could be accepted at the Countess?"
Dr Ogden: "Yes."

12:49pm

Mr Myers refers to the conditions detected that led to the C-section.
He asks if one of the conditions that could follow would be NEC.
Dr Ogden agrees.
Mr Myers said for such babies, there would be an increased risk of infant mortality. Dr Ogden agrees.
She also agrees that Child C would be a "high risk" baby.
She says that for the context, and taking the considerations for those conditions into account, Child C was in a good condition.

12:51pm

Mr Myers refers to the Apgar score for Child C at birth, with readings at one minute, five minutes and 10 minutes. Child C scored 7/10, 9/10 and 9/10 respectively.
The scores are "subjective" and based on observations.

12:54pm

Mr Myers asks about the clinical note which refers to the discussion between the Countess and the Level 3 Liverpool Women's Hospital.
Mr Myers: "At this early point, your view was that Liverpool Women's Hospital needed some communication [in relation to whether Child C would need to be transferred]?"
Dr Ogden: "Yes, that's right."
Mr Myers says if Child C had other problems, along with a 'borderline' weight, then that may affect the decision to transfer a baby to a tertiary centre.
Dr Ogden: "Potentially, it would depend on the circumstances."
Dr Ogden said the decision to transfer would be a joint one made between the hospitals and made via consultants.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 27

 

[arrogantcat]

"new girl was looking after him"

opening speech:

"11:22am

In police interview, Letby denied she had anything to do with Child C, other than with the resuscitation.
She could not remember why she had ended up in nursery 1.
In a second interview, asked about texts which had been found on her phone placing her in that room, Letby said that she might have been sending them from the nurses’ station and then gone into room 1 “to do something else”.
She then agreed that she had been the only person in the room when Child C had collapsed.

UK - Lucy Letby Trial - Media, Maps & Timeline *NO DISCUSSION*

When they refer to texts “placing her in the room” are they saying she mentions the room, or sent images or similar? To my knowledge geo-location isn’t this accurate - unless the rooms were a large distance apart?

As it seems to be necessary in the current mood, I’ll add that I’m not disputing this information - I’m just curious as to how it was collected.

 

[Marantz4250b]

This is exactly what happened with Amanda Knox! With LL’s seemingly odd behaviour and social awkwardness, I have already recognised a parallel between the two cases, which we know was what raised the suspicion against AK in the first place.

I hadn't actually thought about AK in relation to this but I definitely see similarities. You are right, she did behave in a manner which could be seen to be very strange. People don't seem to consider, though, that we really don't know what "strange" is in the context of immensely stressful and emotional events. People do "strange" things very often in these situations but perhaps they aren't actually strange at all. We generally have no point of reference as we've never experienced it before so we don't know how to react.

This could reasonably be applied to the note(s) she wrote. They are being judged by people who have not been under suspicion of murder for years and most likely cut off from their friends, colleagues and perhaps close family for that period.

 

[Tortoise]

When they refer to texts “placing her in the room” are they saying she mentions the room, or sent images or similar? To my knowledge geo-location isn’t this accurate - unless the rooms were a large distance apart?

As it seems to be necessary in the current mood, I’ll add that I’m not disputing this information - I’m just curious as to how it was collected.

I think, but I'm not 100% certain, that we've only seen LL's texts (this morning) after the death of child C.

Perhaps there was something in her earlier texts (which I haven't seen) that referenced her surroundings.

 

[Tortoise]

12:56pm

Dr Ogden said if Liverpool Women's Hospital could not accommodate a baby, there would have been other tertiary centres available if necessary.
Mr Myers says the Countess would have required sufficient numbers of staff to care for Child C.
He asks if June 2015 "was a particularly busy time for [the neonatal unit in] Chester?"
Dr Ogden: "Yes."

12:58pm

Mr Myers said with the number of babies, another factor would be the individual care required for each baby, which included a number of pre-term babies in June 2015.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 27

 

[Marantz4250b]

Out of curiosity - why wouldn’t an adult use the term?

If you go to the news tab on a popular search engine and search for the phrase “on purpose”, you’ll find lots of, presumably, adult journalists using that very phrase in articles discussing all kinds of different subjects.

I'm not saying they definitely wouldn't, it just feels a bit "wrong" to me. It's nothing I can really put my finger on so may be wrong but it just doesn't sit right, if you see what I mean? It sounds more like something a child would say.

I'd expect a well educated and articulate adult (which she is) to use a more "grown up" phrase; "I did it intentionally", "I murdered them", "I wanted them dead", "I chose to kill them" or similar. "I did it on purpose" just sounds a bit too child-like. Although I may be reading too much into it.

 

[arrogantcat]

I hadn't actually thought about AK in relation to this but I definitely see similarities. You are right, she did behave in a manner which could be seen to be very strange. People don't seem to consider, though, that we really don't know what "strange" is in the context of immensely stressful and emotional events. People do "strange" things very often in these situations but perhaps they aren't actually strange at all. We generally have no point of reference as we've never experienced it before so we don't know how to react.

This could reasonably be applied to the note(s) she wrote. They are being judged by people who have not been under suspicion of murder for years and most likely cut off from their friends, colleagues and perhaps close family for that period.

As someone who didn’t get the “normal social rules” manual that most people seem to have received at birth, i think about this a lot during cases like this.

I’ve definitely said the wrong thing to patients’ parents at work sometimes. I’ve also said the perfect thing sometimes, too, though. It’s hard to know what to say on emotionally fraught situations; hard to know what the other person needs to hear.

I’m sure I frequently do things other people consider odd or strange. If you went through my internet history and text messages looking for evidence of me being a weirdo it wouldn’t be hard to paint a sinister picture.

I suppose that’s why I find this type of evidence a little unnerving. It’s an uncomfortable reminder that the standard, neurotypical, mentally healthy mind is still held up as “acceptable normal” and all deviations from that are treated with suspicion.

 

[BuzzC]

I'm not saying they definitely wouldn't, it just feels a bit "wrong" to me. It's nothing I can really put my finger on so may be wrong but it just doesn't sit right, if you see what I mean? It sounds more like something a child would say.

I'd expect a well educated and articulate adult (which she is) to use a more "grown up" phrase; "I did it intentionally", "I murdered them", "I wanted them dead", "I chose to kill them" or similar. "I did it on purpose" just sounds a bit too child-like. Although I may be reading too much into it.

Interesting - although I’m not sure I’d agree.

The note is, clearly, a bit “all over the place.”

 

[Marantz4250b]

One possible reason for her to continue denying the allegations is that she would be receiving counsel from her legal representatives and that may have been their advice to her?

That's entirely possible but I think it was reported right at the beginning that she was talking to the police, at least at some point. I think it's highly unlikely that they would have arrested her multiple times and hold her for the maximum period on two of those occasions (for which they needed a magistrates permission) if she was giving "no comment" answers. I think she may have done on the final arrest as she was charged very soon after.

Personally, I think she has given explanations as to the notes but the police didn't accept them. I get the impression that had she said nothing then the prosecution would have said, or at least inferred, that in the opening.

 

[JosieJo]

That conversation was started as a question to when Lucy is next working not purely for the purpose of discussing Baby c. I might assume it is normal to seek support and reassurance after something like that especially when working with “such a supportive team”. It’s certainly not excessive either in language or in volume of requests.

Everyone is different but usually you would take comfort from the people around you at the time ...she appears to initiate conversations to at least two colleagues at home not on duty snd her parents In a very short space of time. If I was at home on my day off the last thing I'd want is colleagues telling me about more terrible deaths. Its usually something you would find out when next on duty and have a moment to reflect then
I cant help feel its a bit OTT
I except she was single lived alone and overly invested in her work ..but I'm struggling based on the little we have heard not to find it a little "unusual" at best

 

[Sweeper2000]

I'm not making assumptions of guilt but I am 100% making assumptions of her 'professionalism' that the defence have alluded to more than once.

It is absolutely not acceptable to be on your phone messaging for such long periods while you are at work in any setting. As someone who has run clinical investigations and develops performance management systems and processes for the NHS and other organisations - this would absolutely be a reprimand. While she was messaging she was supposed to be looking after a poorly baby (the one she was assigned to that the supervisor told her specifically needed regular monitoring as they weren't in good shape).

If that baby had died and there was a review and they realised the designated nurse was on her phone texting for over an hour while caring for the baby - how do you think that would look for the nurse, her supervisor and the hospital? Would you really want to explain that as 'professionalism' to the grieving parents?

Protocols exist for a reason and anyone dedicated to their jobs of patient welfare would take it seriously. Was that conversation important to have for that long and in that very moment? No, it was not. This is a workplace, with lives at stake.

Agree with nearly everything you say except that an inordinate amount of time was spent actually messaging these people. Takes less than five seconds to send a short message and as far as we know it seems to be normal practice at this ward Hence the replies. I could understand if the time spent messaging conflicted with responsibilities towards patients and would indicate negligence or poor standards. It also seems these messages are mostly to other staff within the ward which I will presume isn’t unusual or against policy? I believe even if you work for mi6 you can still tell your family without consequences that you do you just can’t tell them what you do. So Lucy mentioning the babies dying isn’t unusual especially considering no intimate details are mentioned.

 

[LiverpoolUK2222]

11:36am

Upon arrival to the neonatal unit, Dr Ogden noted symptoms Child C was starting to struggle breathing, including grunting and subcostal recessions.
The note added: "Decision to intubate", which Dr Ogden said would have been her decision.
The respiratory signs "can change quite quickly after birth", Dr Ogden says, so such support for babies of Child C's pre-term "would not be unusual".

11:39am

Ventilator support was set up for Child C, with "standard settings...for the context" set up on the machine.

11:46am

A note of medical communication with the parents is shown to the court.
Dr Ogden's colleague recorded observations taken by her, relaying to the parents that Child C was born in a good condition with good breathing.
Another clinical note showed a 10% dextrose solution would be administered via a TPN bag, through a UVC.
A note on a discussion between the hospital and the Liverpool Women's Hospital was made - due to Child C's weight. The discussion would have raised the possibility of Child C being transferred to Liverpool.

12:00pm

The trial is now resuming following a short break.
Dr Ogden will continue to give evidence.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 27

Both my grandkids were born in the Liverpool womens hospital. One was born in 2009 the other 2021, and I hope Lucy Letby wasn’t working there at that time (2009) as she had worked at the Liverpool womens previously to moving to Chester hospital. The Liverpool Womens is a really great hospital and Alder Hey childrens hospital was not far from my house to walk. Does anyone know dates when she worked at the Liverpool womens hospital? Does anyone know why she left Liverpool womens hospital? I’m curious as to how the staff in Liverpool thought of Lucy.

 

[Marantz4250b]

But all the experts, professors, and doctors for child A and B have said it was deliberate administration of air? Defence put forward other alternatives and papers that the experts managed to explain as not being viable. So it was evidenced to be unlawful.

Which leaves the question, was it LL - well for child B we know she was the only one doing the blood gases and feed just before they collapsed. For child A she did the long line and defence have not suggested anyone else may have been responsible for the collapse of either A nor B.

Their defence was that it was a complication of the long line or CPAP prongs moving or post mortem and the experts batted it away by saying it wasn't possible with modern tech flagging it up etc.

I get what you are saying but, in reality, they have in no way proved that she did it. They have shown that she was there but not that she did anything unlawful what-so-ever to anyone.

 

[JosieJo]

This is the key thing. As far as I can see they have shown nothing of the sort. Even if they have proved beyond any doubt what-so-ever that this was the cause of death they have done nothing at all to show that it was caused by the unlawful act of LL, unless I've missed something.

So far they seem to be saying that "she was there, she must have done it because we say she did".

There is not going to be a smoking gun though is there ? Say cctv or a full on witness ...I feel if, and it is an if, they can show that all or the majority of the babies were killed by foul play and LL was the person who was alone at some point immediately before these "multiple" events it will be enough for the jury to be sure.
I think it will all depend on those two things alone going forward.
That along with other lesser circumstantial evidence such as being overly invested in these cases and parents , attitudes to parents, etc

 

[JosieJo]

I take your points but firstly, it's the DM and, secondly, eye-witness testimony is literally the least reliable evidence you'll ever see. I'm not saying for one minute that they were lying, they clearly weren't, but recalling a specific extremely traumatic event in intimate detail years afterwards is fraught with danger if used in evidence.

Do you think there is any relevance to the defence not questioning this and allowing it as agreed ?

 

[Sweeper2000]

It’s interesting to try and read these messages with a neutral mind. The Prosecution presumably want to paint a picture of her being overly-concerned or fishing for attention, and they certainly can lend themselves to that sort of interpretation.

But I wonder, if we were seeing these messages out of this context - not knowing that they were sent by a nurse accused of murdering children - if people would still see them as sinister. Or whether it might seem quite normal for somebody to be reaching out to her friends when struggling with a really hard week at work, and quite appropriate that she kept remembering that the parents’ pain was far more than her own.

To me personally, this is a bit of a problem with a lot of the LL-specific evidence so far in this case. The note, the FB searches, the slightly off comments to parents - all of these things could be entirely innocent acts.

If any members of the Jury have done similar things - repeat searched clients on Facebook, documented their panicked thoughts, said the wrong thing in a hard moment at work - they’re likely to take the more sympathetic interpretation.

FWIW I still have no strong opinion as to the guilt of the accused. It really does feel far too early to say.

Yep I agree totally, nothing so far points conclusively to her character being odd and all evidence presented by the prosecution is non conclusive. In cases of real psychopaths or munchausen it would definitely be there and it’s not. Only very tenuous suggestions that seemingly isolated incidences of “unusual behaviour” are indicative of a malevolent character or person. The messages especially today I think really point at someone who is normal and is trying to contribute and also deal with a very difficult situation. I also bring attention to the fact that Lucy apologised for being “off” remorseless people don’t apologise for being out of character, they don’t really apologise at all. They also don’t shift attention away from themselves which she did when she said “it’s not about me” which really doesn’t fit with munchausen or psychopathy. They normally try and make out it’s something or someone else’s fault.


I am not seeing enough to indicate Lucy is probably guilty as charged. The medical expertise is tight but not conclusive and the character description is far from what would be expected of a psychopathic baby killer. At this stage at least.

 

[MsBetsy]

In English law, such a confession would be “unreliable” and would not be admitted as evidence.

If the police have offered her “a way out” then I’d expect her legal reps to have driven a bus through that - either being present (as they should have been), or when they found out about it. They didn’t bring anything up during their opening arguments, so we’ll see if they do when it’s presented in evidence.

Yes, I have only heard of suspects breaking under pressure and admitting guilt ofter being interrogated for hours on end without any breaks. From what I've seen, investigators stopped using that method a long time ago.

A poster mentioned earlier that LL had been told many times she was guilty, but I have yet to see any evidence of this.

 

[JosieJo]

Whether it’s considered in line with professional standard or not, telling grieving parents that they’ve “said their goodbyes” to imply that they need to move on now so the next phase can begin is incredibly insensitive as far as I’m concerned. I was given all the time I needed when my parents passed and I was by their bedside in each event, and if someone had said that to me I’d have been offended.

I agree ...any nurse with even minimum experience and compassion would be present but not intrusive..you would say take as much time as you need I'm here when you want me

 

[JosieJo]

Another thing I suppose I can share insight into. When my son was in a&e and there’s a whole team round him doing whatever it is they need to do. We had called the ambulance initially because he wasn’t breathing, my husband started cpr which was then taken over by ambulance and then the hospital staff. This nurse sat with me watching the medical team and I was looking at countdown clock on the crash trolley thinking, it had been such a long time (we’re talking maybe 40 minutes?) and I asked her “is it normal for it to take this long?” Assuming they had still be assisting breathing/cpr etc. The nurse was VERY non commital in her answer, despite in hindsight it must’ve been very obvious to a medically trained person what was happening. Not once in that time we sat together did she give any indication on him medically, and to be honest, I’d be very surprised if in these situations it was correct for a nurse to say anything about the potential passing of a baby to the parents in that manner.

Thank you for sharing that xx