UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

[Marantz4250b]

It’s interesting to try and read these messages with a neutral mind. The Prosecution presumably want to paint a picture of her being overly-concerned or fishing for attention, and they certainly can lend themselves to that sort of interpretation.

But I wonder, if we were seeing these messages out of this context - not knowing that they were sent by a nurse accused of murdering children - if people would still see them as sinister. Or whether it might seem quite normal for somebody to be reaching out to her friends when struggling with a really hard week at work, and quite appropriate that she kept remembering that the parents’ pain was far more than her own.

To me personally, this is a bit of a problem with a lot of the LL-specific evidence so far in this case. The note, the FB searches, the slightly off comments to parents - all of these things could be entirely innocent acts.

If any members of the Jury have done similar things - repeat searched clients on Facebook, documented their panicked thoughts, said the wrong thing in a hard moment at work - they’re likely to take the more sympathetic interpretation.

FWIW I still have no strong opinion as to the guilt of the accused. It really does feel far too early to say.

I entirely agree here. I have to say that I don't find anything strange in the texts at all. They seem very normal conversations to have given the circumstances and they certainly don't give the impression of her fishing for attention or sympathy.

The FB searching I don't find strange, to be honest. Some people just have a need to know things and can't mentally put something "to bed" otherwise. I can entirely understand why she may have made these searches and even more so now that we've actually seen messages from her expressing concern for the parents.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Her text messages give off a strange vibe to me. I’d like to see if it were usual for the nurses to text between each other between shifts about particular patients, or if any of the other staff on shift during the deaths of baby a or c texted people or discussed it outside of work in the way Lucy has.

The particular message about Lucy being told she was not being off but was unhappy is interesting for me.

I can’t help it. I know that people are only people, and that being involved in the care of dying babies must be incredibly difficult to deal with, especially when it isn’t happening so often as the stats show prior to 2015. But something feels wrong for me. It’s probably the first unexplainable feeling I’ve had in this case so far.

Given that her colleagues were replying it makes me think that it isn't particularly unusual. I don't get the impression that it's particularly unusual or wrong, to be honest. Messaging is really just an extension of something you'd say to people in person. If we didn't have text apps then these are basically things people would say in a phone all or over the garden wall to people they knew.

 

[Marantz4250b]

"new girl was looking after him"

opening speech:

"11:22am

In police interview, Letby denied she had anything to do with Child C, other than with the resuscitation.
She could not remember why she had ended up in nursery 1.
In a second interview, asked about texts which had been found on her phone placing her in that room, Letby said that she might have been sending them from the nurses’ station and then gone into room 1 “to do something else”.
She then agreed that she had been the only person in the room when Child C had collapsed.

UK - Lucy Letby Trial - Media, Maps & Timeline *NO DISCUSSION*

I guess that "looking after him" referred the new girl being the designated nurse.

 

[Tortoise]

Both my grandkids were born in the Liverpool womens hospital. One was born in 2009 the other 2021, and I hope Lucy Letby wasn’t working there at that time (2009) as she had worked at the Liverpool womens previously to moving to Chester hospital. The Liverpool Womens is a really great hospital and Alder Hey childrens hospital was not far from my house to walk. Does anyone know dates when she worked at the Liverpool womens hospital? Does anyone know why she left Liverpool womens hospital? I’m curious as to how the staff in Liverpool thought of Lucy.

"She had worked on the unit as a student nurse during three years of training before qualifying as a children's nurse at The University of Chester in 2011.

Liverpool Women's NHS Foundation Trust also confirmed Ms Letby did training placements with them."

Nurse Lucy Letby arrested over Chester Hospital baby deaths

seems like it would have been between 2008 and 2011

 

[Sundial]

Her text messages give off a strange vibe to me. I’d like to see if it were usual for the nurses to text between each other between shifts about particular patients, or if any of the other staff on shift during the deaths of baby a or c texted people or discussed it outside of work in the way Lucy has.

The particular message about Lucy being told she was not being off but was unhappy is interesting for me.

I can’t help it. I know that people are only people, and that being involved in the care of dying babies must be incredibly difficult to deal with, especially when it isn’t happening so often as the stats show prior to 2015. But something feels wrong for me. It’s probably the first unexplainable feeling I’ve had in this case so far.

I totally agree with this. This is the same
Vibe I am getting. It’s sort of subtle but an uncomfortable feeling to it. Something is off. I keep thinking back to the comment that was made about the other hospital and how she indicated how supportive they were, it’s like a comparison to watching what had happened (eg grief and comforting each other) and wanting some kind of comfort through grief/drama? I can’t put my finger on it. It depicts something almost identical I have experienced with a colleague myself. Such was the concern and very dark feeling; I actually reported it to my manager.

 

[LiverpoolUK2222]

The court case has only been a few weeks and are due to last up to 6 months. There is a lot of evidence yet on many more babies, and I am already feeling uncomfortable with this Lucy Letby. We still have 5 months or so left so there will be tons more evidence to Show yet, there is a lot we are yet to see.

 

[Tortoise]

I guess that "looking after him" referred the new girl being the designated nurse.

My guess is that she was distancing herself from the death, as she did in the police interview. It was the second death in a week.

 

[JosieJo]

That's entirely possible but I think it was reported right at the beginning that she was talking to the police, at least at some point. I think it's highly unlikely that they would have arrested her multiple times and hold her for the maximum period on two of those occasions (for which they needed a magistrates permission) if she was giving "no comment" answers. I think she may have done on the final arrest as she was charged very soon after.

Personally, I think she has given explanations as to the notes but the police didn't accept them. I get the impression that had she said nothing then the prosecution would have said, or at least inferred, that in the opening.

Just a passing thought about a confession if she did this ....I agree I do not think she has ever admitted it fully.
I think she would be mortified for her parents to know and possibly friends and colleagues..at least if she was found guilty by jury her parents haven't heard it from her

 

[LiverpoolUK2222]

"She had worked on the unit as a student nurse during three years of training before qualifying as a children's nurse at The University of Chester in 2011.

Liverpool Women's NHS Foundation Trust also confirmed Ms Letby did training placements with them."

Nurse Lucy Letby arrested over Chester Hospital baby deaths

seems like it would have been between 2008 and 2011

Wow so she was at the womens when my granddaughter was born in 2009 then. Wonder if she was one of the midwife’s or if she worked with premature babies there also.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Both my grandkids were born in the Liverpool womens hospital. One was born in 2009 the other 2021, and I hope Lucy Letby wasn’t working there at that time (2009) as she had worked at the Liverpool womens previously to moving to Chester hospital. The Liverpool Womens is a really great hospital and Alder Hey childrens hospital was not far from my house to walk. Does anyone know dates when she worked at the Liverpool womens hospital? Does anyone know why she left Liverpool womens hospital? I’m curious as to how the staff in Liverpool thought of Lucy.

She only worked there for a time during her training, I believe. She didn't graduate until 2011 whereupon she started full time at CoCH.

 

[merrypason]

Agree with nearly everything you say except that an inordinate amount of time was spent actually messaging these people. Takes less than five seconds to send a short message and as far as we know it seems to be normal practice at this ward Hence the replies. I could understand if the time spent messaging conflicted with responsibilities towards patients and would indicate negligence or poor standards. It also seems these messages are mostly to other staff within the ward which I will presume isn’t unusual or against policy? I believe even if you work for mi6 you can still tell your family without consequences that you do you just can’t tell them what you do. So Lucy mentioning the babies dying isn’t unusual especially considering no intimate details are mentioned.

So, I'm referring to 2 separate incidents of unprofessionalism here.

• Inordinate time refers to just 1 incident - Whatsapp convo for 1hr+ while she was supposed to be caring for a poorly baby. The conversation wasn't one that would help that poor baby in any way and was distracting her from her job. It was about her and what she wanted - there's a time and place to discuss this. After work, before work. You can't be using your hands to text and be focused on getting messages and responding, while also caring for patients. A distracted medic is a terrible accident waiting to happen.
• The messages sharing intimate details about baby's weight, what the parents were doing or didn't do. Those were not an inordinate amount of time for sure. But it's the number of people she shared it with and also the nature of that information. How someone deals with their baby's death or their baby's weight is really not something to be broadcast on whatsapp to random people. What's the point of GDPR if people share this stuff on personal messaging services....

There's also a difference in sharing things verbally vs having it written down on unsecured devices. Data privacy is taken very seriously now for a reason. Can you imagine if she lost her phone and someone got access to all this sensitive patient info? It doesn't sound so bad right that it's a baby's weight. What if it were someone who was obese and in for gastric band surgery - would it be ok to text that to random people? Or if someone was in for self harming - would it be ok to text that to random people?

None of this would be as relevant if it weren't for the fact her defence have talked a few times about her 'professionalism'. That means being aware of rules, policies, protocol and doing what's best for your patients privacy, not yourself. It also means irrespective of what the team culture is, you yourself do the right thing.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Both my grandkids were born in the Liverpool womens hospital. One was born in 2009 the other 2021, and I hope Lucy Letby wasn’t working there at that time (2009) as she had worked at the Liverpool womens previously to moving to Chester hospital. The Liverpool Womens is a really great hospital and Alder Hey childrens hospital was not far from my house to walk. Does anyone know dates when she worked at the Liverpool womens hospital? Does anyone know why she left Liverpool womens hospital? I’m curious as to how the staff in Liverpool thought of Lucy.

As of yet there are no statements on Lucy’s character from Liverpool hospital but one of the nurses who knew Lucy well from Chester Hospital and during her uni placements said she was a “highly qualified and dedicated neonatal nurse”. It has also been stated that there are no concerns preceding 2015. Many years of good and unremarkable work.

 

[Tortoise]

Wow so she was at the womens when my granddaughter was born in 2009 then. Wonder if she was one of the midwife’s or if she worked with premature babies there also.

Well, at some point during those 3 years she did training placements there but it's not specified which years that was.

 

[JosieJo]

My guess is that she was distancing herself from the death, as she did in the police interview. It was the second death in a week.

I agree ...I also wondered if a person may choose the baby "of a new girl" dare I say .."on purpose"

I also wondered how new the nurse was not to have a name when texting colleagues of the same unit

 

[Marantz4250b]

My guess is that she was distancing herself from the death, as she did in the police interview. It was the second death in a week.

It could be that but she also shows some empathy for the new nurse when she says she was devastated or similar. I don't really see that as a distancing tactic though. Things like that tend to seem out of place in the conversation and that comment didn't to me. It seemed entirely normal.

 

[arrogantcat]

Do you think there is any relevance to the defence not questioning this and allowing it as agreed ?

Have any of the parent’s statements been used outside of agreed evidence yet?
I had expected them all to be covered in agreed evidence to save the parents any questioning etc.

 

[Tortoise]

Have any of the parent’s statements been used outside of agreed evidence yet?
I had expected them all to be covered in agreed evidence to save the parents any questioning etc.

If there was any point that was not agreed by the defence it would not have been read to the jury.

 

[Tortoise]

2:03pm

The trial has adjourned for a lunch break, and is due to resume at about 2.10pm.
Ben Myers KC will continue to ask Dr Sally Ogden questions on behalf of the defence.

2:15pm

Mr Myers now refers to the case of Child C.
He asks about the risk of infection, which Dr Ogden was "not immediately a concern" at the time of his birth.
Mr Myers says infection "is always a potential risk".
He asks about the breathing issues Child C had at birth, and asks whether such issues could be a "sign of infection". Dr Ogden agrees.

2:20pm

The court is shown an x-ray review in which a staff member had noted "hazy left lung field".
Dr Ogden said she hadn't seen the x-ray, but agrees the note in the review means there could be a sign of infection.
The list of 'problems' in a clinical note is raised, including 'suspected sepsis'.
Dr Ogden says there was a treatment plan in place for 'suspected sepsis'. The 'high lactate' noted is an indicator of a potential, non-specific issue with the baby, the court hears.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 27

 

[Sweeper2000]

I'm not saying they definitely wouldn't, it just feels a bit "wrong" to me. It's nothing I can really put my finger on so may be wrong but it just doesn't sit right, if you see what I mean? It sounds more like something a child would say.

I'd expect a well educated and articulate adult (which she is) to use a more "grown up" phrase; "I did it intentionally", "I murdered them", "I wanted them dead", "I chose to kill them" or similar. "I did it on purpose" just sounds a bit too child-like. Although I may be reading too much into it.

Yeh that’s my point, the inclusion of doubt in a statement that requires a response of two opposites “yes or no” indicates the third option that it was done by mistake which isn’t a response to a question of guilt about murder. Language forensics. You are bang on, a fully culpable adult wouldn’t include it as it’s superfluous to the question of guilt. This is also contextual as a journalist will say it to provide clarification that the act was done deliberately referring to someone else and in this case it is one individual talking to themselves. She wouldn’t have doubt if she knew she was guilty, there is no need to state it was done on purpose.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Well, at some point during those 3 years she did training placements there but it's not specified which years that was.

She qualified in 2011 and joined Chester the same year so is most likely 2008.