UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #6

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How confusing - is she saying she didn't sign at 1.25am?
Gosh I know it’s becoming very muddy waters now. So she was called off her break to assist, didn’t sign at 1.25 but somebody else did? Did they sign as her as she does say ‘it’s not my handwriting’ rather than ‘it’s not my name’
 
2:22pm

Mr Myers refers to the skin discolouration of Child D at the time of the first collapse.
Mr Myers: "Does that suggest the skin discolouration was all over her body?"
Mrs Oakley: "The front of it yes, but I don't know if it was all the trunk. I don't think it was all the trunk, all the legs."
Mr Myers refers to her finding the rash-like appearance being 'unusual', and a 'struggle to describe it'.
"You said you couldn't remember it - was a deep red-brown what you saw?"
"I just remember the rash, I don't remember the specifics of it, I just remember it was an unusual rash."
"Would it be fair to say the fact it was unusual that stuck in your mind?"
"It always has, yes."

2:24pm

Mr Myers refers to the 3am collapse of Child D.
He suggests that Mrs Oakley was present at the time of the collapse.
Mrs Oakley says she would have been in the vicinity at the time, and does not remember what she was doing.

 
2:28pm

Mr Myers says it was an episode which resolved 'quickly' and resulted in a decision to take Child D off CPAP.
He asks whether there had been a discussion about Child D's breathing support difficulties earlier that day.
Mrs Oakley says she does not remember.
She says she believes if the desaturations had gone to the 70s, the alarms would have gone off and she would have been alerted to Child D.
The 3.45am collapse is now being referred to.
Mr Myers says at that point, Child D had been taken off CPAP.
Mrs Oakley replies: "Honestly, you would have to check the times for me."
"She was stable in between these two times?"
"Definitely."

Mr Myers says there is then a more marked deterioration, as Child D stopped breathing, and nurse Oakley called for help.
Mrs Oakley agrees.

2:31pm

The prosecution rise once more, led by Simon Driver, to ask about the discolouration of Child D's skin at 1.30am.
He asks what it was that struck her about the rash appearance that was unusual at 1.30am.

"I'd not seen it before."
He asks how it had changed by 3am.
She replies the rash wasn't as pronounced, not "as bad", but she was not expecting Child D to deteriorate again.

She says she had previously experienced 'mottled' appearance in babies - 'newborn spots', or 'mottled', but "we don't specifically get rashes, in my experience".

2:34pm


The judge, Mr Justice James Goss, asks to clarify one matter from the 1.30am collapse.
"You said some of that was what you had been told had happened."
Mrs Oakley says the 'oral suctions' referred to what was being done to Child D before she arrived back in room 1. The part of the note from 'discolourations to skin observed' were her own observations.

 
Prosecution needs to ask Mrs Oakley regarding the 1:25 prescription if she recognises the handwriting if it’s not hers. If she confirms it’s Letby’s the prosecution has Letby for attempted murder for the 1:25 collapse, which is why Myers is doing his best to brush over it and hoping the prosecution didn’t notice imo.
 
Very very strange, seems like everyone is acting like it's no big deal but I do think it's a very big deal and surely (hopefully?!) not the first time both sides are hearing of this

We've seen Myers try and attack: witness credibility and effectiveness at their jobs, staffing levels in NHS, what he believes to be sub-optimal care and staff straying from guidelines, which is what I would expect him to do. But faking a signature on a prescription is oh no biggie *shrug* definitely not worth questioning at all..?
It's all very underplayed in the updates if what just happened in court shows that LL signed for Mrs Oakley, to help her out. o_O
 
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It seems like the notes made between 1.05 and 1.25 when baby collapsed were by someone else who signed with Ms Oakley's initials?

So if it wasn't her handwriting, then who's was it?

Also LL was in the room at baby's collapse at 1.30 according to this note?

"At 1.30am, nurse Oakley's notes record: 'called to nursery by senior nurse...and senior nurse Letby; [Child D] had desaturated to 70s, required oral suction as was bubbly and had lost colour. Discolourations to skin observed; trunk/legs/arm/chin. Dr Brunton called to review"

Oakley clarified to judge that the oral suction bit was told to her by LL or another nurse, and the discolourations are what she observed. Which makes sense because oral suctions is in the past tense (Required) and discolourations in the present tense (observed).

Also, in the prosecution's opening statement, they said this about 1.30 time of collapse - "There is a note in Lucy Letby's records she was engaged in the care of a different baby at the time, but the prosecution say nursing notes suggest Letby and the designated nurse called the doctor to the room."

The prosecution allege either the notes recorded were simply inaccurate, or Letby was setting herself up with an alibi in someone else's medical records.


Have they showed us at some point - this note in LL's records that contradicted her presence at the collapse?
 
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So I guess what all this confusing evidence is getting at is: If Mrs Oakley was on her break from 1am and only remembers coming out of it when Child D collapsed at 1.30 - how come her signature is on the blood gas readings at 1.15am(when normally it would be 1.30). How come her signature is also on the prescription for fluids at 1.25am? Are they saying Letby falsified her signature? Are they saying Oakley wasn't there for the administration of the fluids and Letby did it alone?

Unfortunately Mrs Oakley doesn't seem to remember much at all except for the strange rash, which she can't describe very well. Hopefully other nurses and doctors will help clarify some of this when they take the stand.
 
It seems like the notes made between 1.05 and 1.25 when baby collapsed were by someone else who signed with Ms Oakley's initials?

So if it wasn't her handwriting, then who's was it?

Also LL was in the room at baby's collapse at 1.30 according to this note?

"At 1.30am, nurse Oakley's notes record: 'called to nursery by senior nurse...and senior nurse Letby; [Child D] had desaturated to 70s, required oral suction as was bubbly and had lost colour. Discolourations to skin observed; trunk/legs/arm/chin. Dr Brunton called to review"

Oakley clarified to judge that the oral suction bit was told to her by LL or another nurse, and the discolourations are what she observed. Which makes sense because oral suctions is in the past tense (Required) and discolourations in the present tense (observed).

Also, in the prosecution's opening statement, they said this about 1.30 time of collapse - "There is a note in Lucy Letby's records she was engaged in the care of a different baby at the time, but the prosecution say nursing notes suggest Letby and the designated nurse called the doctor to the room."

Have they showed us at some point - this note in LL's records that contradicted her presence at the collapse?
We may not be able to see the note in LL's records if it relates to a baby who is not involved in this case.

I do remember prosecution saying she had at some point attempted to create an alibi for herself in some else's notes. I wonder if that is what's happening here or if that is a separate incident we'll hear about in detail..
 
well there's this from first thing today, which is as clear as mud -


10:46am

The chart being shown to the court is the neonatal review schedule, showing when electronic records are made, including e-prescriptions, with Lucy Letby's name highlighted on the chart.
Nicholas Johnson KC, for the prosecution, highlights the three 'infusion started' notes, each one of them happening before Child D's collapses. Lucy Letby and Caroline Oakley are the two nurses to sign for the medication and administering the infusion.

10:58am

Ben Myers KC, for Letby's defence, asks about a note which said Letby administered to a baby 'whose location is unconfirmed [as recorded on a map of the neonatal unit for that night]' on the night of June 21. Letby was a designated nurse for that baby, and two babies in room 1, that night.
Mr Myers asks about Lucy Letby and Caroline Oakley administering medication to a number of different of babies that night. Claire Hocknell confirms the records.

11:00am

Mr Johnson asks to clarify the map which includes the detail about the baby 'whose location is unconfirmed' - he tells the court Letby was initially the designated nurse for that baby until 10.45pm that night on June 21, and then care was passed to a different nurse.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, November 4
 
We may not be able to see the note in LL's records if it relates to a baby who is not involved in this case.

I do remember prosecution saying she had at some point attempted to create an alibi for herself in some else's notes. I wonder if that is what's happening here or if that is a separate incident we'll hear about in detail..
Yep, it was this incident they referred to where she possibly made an alibi for herself for the 1.30am collapse.
 
Mr Johnson asks to clarify the map which includes the detail about the baby 'whose location is unconfirmed' - he tells the court Letby was initially the designated nurse for that baby until 10.45pm that night on June 21, and then care was passed to a different nurse.

That's the one!

Ah!!! So that's what they meant as possible alibi setting by LL?

At 1.30 LL's notes show she was caring for another baby in unconfirmed location
At 1.30 Oakley's notes show LL called her to baby D and had done an infusion on D at 1.25 just before.
 
That's the one!

Ah!!! So that's what they meant as possible alibi setting by LL?

At 1.30 LL's notes show she was caring for another baby in unconfirmed location
At 1.30 Oakley's notes show LL called her to baby D and had done an infusion on D at 1.25 just before.

Makes sense now thank you, I hope the Jury's Ipads lay this out clearly because from the reporting (which obviously isn't perfect) that was confusing! We've had to draw that conclusion ourselves rather than the prosecution stating it outright
 
Nurse tells Lucy Letby trial how baby rapidly deteriorated


Nurse tells Lucy Letby trial how baby rapidly deteriorated
Thanks for this, it's a good summary of some confusing updates today

So:

She (Oakley) was on break between 1am-2am, a prescription was signed for in her name but not her handwriting at 1:25 and then LL called her in at 1:30 as Baby D has collapsed.

Questions:
Was LL meant to be there and was she alone? Was she pretending to be elsewhere at 1:30 by creating notes for another baby? Was it her who signed the prescription as Mrs Oakley. Apologies if these questions have been asked/answered already, work got unexpectedly busy
 
If LL has two designated babies in the same room as Baby D.. why was she elsewhere at 1.30 supposedly with another baby?

The real difficulty here is that it appears the nurses are occasionally filling in notes they shouldn’t be or signing another nurses name when they shouldn’t be, to help each other out with the workload. Which isn’t a huge issue until one of them is potentially then causing collapses of babies.

While I get the idea is to show LL had access and the suggestion of falsifying notes for an alibi, surely it shows that the notes alone mean very little if the staff then can’t back up the nurses (ie both administering nurses verifying they worked together, staff being able to recall who is present at what time)

It’s all very well for example having Oakleys signature on a prescription, but largely it means nothing? Therefore could you not argue that LL being placed anywhere via notes or co-signing or anything is also equally unreliable without a witness statement that attests the notes are true?
 
I'm not clear at all. That Daily Mail article doesn't explain it all either.

"But at 3.45am Baby D suffered a second, fatal collapse that went on until a doctor pronounced her dead at 4.25am. She was 36 hours old."

This isn't correct because there was a second collapse at 3am. The third and final collapse was at 3.45am. (from the intelligence analyst's evidence yesterday.)

I think the reporters weren't on it today.
 
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