UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

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Interesting - I didn't realise the jurors could ask questions.
I just googled and apparently

"Jurors cannot ask directly but they can send questions in a note to the judge. Some judges tell the jury in the course of a trial they can do this.

The judge decided what to do, but what happens frequently is the judge invites counsel who is asking questions of a witness to incorporate it into his/her line of questions.

Other times there may be a full discussion between counsel and the judge in the absence of the jury to decide how to deal with the jury question."
 
I agree more likely injected into the bag in the treatment room as both insulin and tpn in the fridge.

It's also possible it was injected at any point even after it was started as there would likely be an injection port on the bag
I'm also wondering whether a different form of insulin might have been used, such as one that works slowly over 12 or 24 hours? If that was available in the fridge I mean.
 
Sorry if I'm being stupid but what is the juror getting at with that question?
It's good to see that they are being very thorough in examining all the evidence presented to them. From that question, I get the impression they are questioning everything, which is great.
 
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The situation of her home has been brought up before, both on here and in the early press articles when she was first arrested. Did she actually own this house? I mean the one she was living at when arrested.

When I initially heard of this case it was when she was charged and I then read the articles of her initial arrest and it seemed to me that she may have been renting this house. Having got a sense of the general drift of things, though, it appears that she may have actually owned it. If so it seems a bit out of the ordinary for a 25 year-old woman to be owning a three bed semi. Not that that implies guilt or anything.

I do wonder, though, whether, if she owned it, she bought with a boyfriend/partner. Given that one of the underlying suspicions as to why she may have allegedly done what she is accused of is that she was worried about being alone and never having a family then buying a house with someone would tend to undermine that somewhat.

It's hard to know, isn't it, when we know so little about LL's 'private' life prior to her arrest. But just to address, speculatively, some of the above:

If she owned the house, she could have purchased it with (financial) assistance from her parents. From the vague bits we know, they seem very close and supportive and proud of her. And they might have seen her getting a foot on the property ladder as important. So not that out of out ordinary maybe, if the case?

I'm assuming (and please correct me if I'm wrong) you're using the outpourings on the post-it note, where she, because of the accusations, despaired of ever having a family of her own? According to a google, that was written while she was facing disciplinary proceedings at work. So after the fact. And there's no mention of a partner. If she had a partner at the time (one that she shared a mortgage with), surely she would have included mention of him/her in her 'not deserving' outpourings, along with her parents and other family members?

In essence, what I'm trying to say is that her despairing at that point over never having a normal life again doesn't seem to include having a specific partner at the time who's now eg. going to reject/abandon her because of the charges, more the damage the charges will affect and impact upon a theoretical future one. And that her property ownership or otherwise is a very moot point in the context of understanding anything useful or significant about her at the time.

I hope that makes some vague sense.

The links I refer to - Lucy Letby trial - 'I am evil, I did this': Read the 'confession note' written by nurse accused of murdering seven babies
It said that the note was written when Letby was facing disciplinary proceedings at work.

And the post-it note - https://e3.365dm.com/22/10/1600x900/skynews-lucy-letby-confession_5929755.jpg?20221013165456

Just to add, grateful thanks to all who continue to provide the court updates/transcripts and the 'medical' people who take such care with the medical info/explanations they provide to include those of us not in the medical world. They're so helpful in trying to get to grips with the evidence at the heart of this case.
 
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I imagine they're wondering if an air embolism could be administered by mistake if someone failed to prime the line.
Yes I agree.

I wonder what would happen though in the hypothetical situation LL (or indeed anybody else) did this very thing by accident or through negligence - would it still count as murder, or manslaughter, or a completely different charge I wonder? Or if the jury believe that situation occured? I guess the Judge will direct them how they make their decision though.

All my own opinion.
 
I'm a bit puzzled by the juror's question in relation to the Alaris syringe driver, because no one's suggested baby F was injected with air.

Is it perhaps more to do with a possible administration of insulin through the syringe if the line hasn't been primed, ie someone would be noticed priming the line prior to administration?
 
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This may well be true but I imagine being one of the most reliable and experienced staff nurses in a chronically understaffed hospital, the chances of her being there are remarkably higher than average in usual circumstances.

Well, the specific incidents I referred to are not normal. She wasn’t merely present.

Baby E: the only one in the room with a screaming baby bleeding from the mouth. Doing nothing to comfort or assist him and shooing the mother away, then falsifying records.

Baby K: Consultant paediatrician gets worried realising he doesn’t know where Letby is. Goes to look and finds her standing silently over Baby K, while her breathing tubes are dislodged (which she can’t have done herself as she was sedated), her oxygen tanks, and the alarm on the monitor is silent as if it’s been paused.

Baby I: at 3:20am, Letby had been the only one in a darkened room with Baby I. The designated nurse returns and finds LL standing in the doorway. LL says the baby looks pale. Designated nurse turns on the light and finds the baby on the brink of death, taking one breath per 20 seconds. Later notes show the ETT tube needed repositioning, also in a note by Letby she claimed the apnoea alarm didn’t sound.

Unknown baby: another nurse and Letby are in a room tending to babies. The oxygen alarm on Letby’s baby starts sounding. Letby does the usual procedures to fix the situation but it doesn’t seem to be working and the alarm keeps sounding. The other nurse calls for more help. Later on, Letby confronts the nurse for calling for help, which shocks the nurse.
 
Yes I agree.

I wonder what would happen though in the hypothetical situation LL (or indeed anybody else) did this very thing by accident or through negligence - would it still count as murder, or manslaughter, or a completely different charge I wonder? Or if the jury believe that situation occured? I guess the Judge will direct them how they make their decision though.

All my own opinion.
I haven't seen charges against nurses for that, that I can recall. I think nurses are pretty well covered in that they mostly take directions in terms of what meds and treatments will be ordered. They usually are not making life or death decisions on their own except for extreme circumstances.

But I have seen doctors charged with negligence and/or manslaughter for making grievous mistakes. Juries seem to go easy if it is an innocent mistake. But when a patient has a horrid injury, and needs the injured leg removed, and the doctor removes the good leg instead, juries give very harsh penalties.

The problem for the defendant is that there would be a very long list of deadly errors and accidents. Is it believable that one person would make such a long pattern of harmful accidental decisions?
 
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Yes I agree.

I wonder what would happen though in the hypothetical situation LL (or indeed anybody else) did this very thing by accident or through negligence - would it still count as murder, or manslaughter, or a completely different charge I wonder? Or if the jury believe that situation occured? I guess the Judge will direct them how they make their decision though.

All my own opinion.
I suppose that might have crossed the jury's mind, having heard of quite a few instances of sub-optimal note-taking, miscommunication, etc.
 
I'm a bit puzzled by the juror's question in relation to the Alaris syringe driver, because no one's suggested baby F was injected with air.

Is it perhaps more to do with a possible administration of insulin through the syringe if the line hasn't been primed, ie someone would be noticed priming the line prior to administration?
One good thing about these questions---it helps the barristers understand what the jurors might be thinking. And it gives them a chance to clarify if need be.
 
It's good to see that they are being very thorough in examining all the evidence presented to them. From that question, I get the impression they are questioning everything, which is great.
I find it very reassuring knowing the jury are questioning everything and not just accepting what the chosen experts are saying at face value.

Having this insight and awareness that we are only actually hearing a fraction of what is being said in court, gives me much more confidence in their eventual verdict.

I would imagine that the judge decided to allow questions based on all the medical testimony being presented…well done to the jury, I am struggling to keep up with what we are being given!
 
This may well be true but I imagine being one of the most reliable and experienced staff nurses in a chronically understaffed hospital, the chances of her being there are remarkably higher than average in usual circumstances.
But how old was she then?
25/26?
Was she really one of the most experienced nurses there??
Very strange.
Moo
 
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My body is trying to fall asleep down here in Oz, so I haven't got the strength or concentration to go back and look for the details - but I am wondering if there were any babies who were deliberately harmed earlier (after LL began to work there.) Yes, there were far fewer deaths in previous years, but that doesn't prove that LL (allegedly) didn't harm any of those babies. And others. I wonder if LE is checking those other babies out. Rather than suddenly becoming a prolific killer after a number of years at the hospital, it would make more sense if LL (allegedly) started small, and then attacked more babies as her confidence grew.
My thoughts exactly.

Allegedly she became too sure of herself, too arrogant and uninhibited.

Thank goodness the hospital took notice.

After all, another nurse - male "Good nurse" is believed to have up to 400 victims before he was finally caught :(

Moo

Based on true crime book

 
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My thoughts exactly.

Allegedly she became too sure of herself, too arrogant and uninhibited.

Thank goodness the hospital took notice.

After all, another nurse - male "Good nurse" is believed to have up to 400 victims before he was finally caught :(

Moo

Based on true crime book
She invested a huge amount of time and study into becoming a highly qualified nurse in the neonatal care system. Colleagues describe her as excellent, compassionate, etc. If guilty, how could someone keep up such an act throughout long shifts? Just my thoughts, as a completely baffled onlooker.
 
She invested a huge amount of time and study into becoming a highly qualified nurse in the neonatal care system. Colleagues describe her as excellent, compassionate, etc. If guilty, how could someone keep up such an act throughout long shifts? Just my thoughts, as a completely baffled onlooker.
How can a nurse who seemed baffled at the idea of calculating doses of medicines by patients' weight be called "an excellent nurse"?? o_O

My young cousin who is a nurse - not so experienced - burst out laughing hearing this.

I think she is still giggling.

Moo
 
How can a nurse who seemed baffled at the idea of calculating doses of medicines by patients' weight be called "an excellent nurse"?? o_O

My young cousin who is a nurse - not so experienced - burst out laughing hearing this.

I think she is still giggling.

Moo
Just going by what her colleagues said.
 
Re "systemic failings" mentioned above
Surely there is some higher authority monitoring situation in national hospitals in all areas of the country, no?
Like the Government Department of Health.
Each hospital is part of a system and the Minister of Health is the ultimate boss responsible for health service in a country.
Yes, but this is the UK where no single agency takes responsibility for anything, and governing bodies (whether private or governmental) aren't really fit for purpose.

This is true, not just in healthcare, but in most aspects of British life.

Every time something goes wrong, the governing body says there will be 'an inquiry'. And there usually is, but still nothing changes.....
 
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