UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
I know, but it never stops being astonishing.

It is astonishing and, if guilty of what she's been accused of, the recklessness of her actions is absolutely confounding to me. To be that comfortable in plain sight, with the ever-permanent risk of being found in the act, takes a level of quite audacious and astonishing cold-blooded nerve. It goes well beyond hidden in plain sight. It almost defies comprehension.

It's hard this business of trying to get inside the mind of an alleged serial killer.
 
Last edited:
OMG, reading the daily mail article, I've only just realised the possible significance of the text conversation from 4th August ...

On 4th August at 7.55pm just before LL is about to start her night shift, her colleague texts about Baby E's death and says what a run of bad luck LL is having and that she needs "a break from it being on her shift"

Around 4 hours after that conversation LL administers a TPN bag, allegedly poisoned with insulin that will impact Baby F not only throughout LLs night shift but through the following day's shift too. If the insulin proves to be fatal once LL finishes her shift then voila, she gets a "break from the deaths being on her shift"

"Jennifer Jones-Key, a nursing colleague, contacted her at 7.55pm that evening to ask: 'Hey, how's you? X'

Letby: 'Not so good. We lost E overnight.'

Ms Jones-Key: 'That's sad. We're on a terrible run at the moment. Were you in (Nursery) 1? x'

Letby: 'Yes, I had him and F'.

Ms Jones-Key: 'That's not good. You need a break from it being on your shift'.

Letby: 'It's the luck of the drawer (sic), isn't it unfortunately. Only 3 trained (nurses) so I Iended up having both whereas just had F the other shifts'.

Ms Jones-Key: 'You seem to be having some very bad luck though.'
"

 
In any case, the 'night poisoner' couldn't have known that the line was going to tissue that day, and need to be interrupted/replaced with a different bag.

Did she not think that the baby would be tested if he had died in such circumstances? Perhaps she did set up the other nurse to start the infusion and want her blamed for it.


If guilty, maybe she was also relying on the fact that his parents had not had a post mortem after the death of his brother Baby E?.. (as well as possibly setting somebody up for it to happen on the day shift.)
 
If guilty, maybe she was also relying on the fact that his parents had not had a post mortem after the death of his brother Baby E?.. (as well as possibly setting somebody up for it to happen on the day shift.)
At that stage though it wasn't too late to change their minds over having a post mortem, I would have thought.
 
And just to add to the 'confounding' that I'm struggling with, LL's alleged 'in plain sight' activities surely also demand serious scrutiny and questions to be asked of the management and practices of the neonatal unit? How could such alleged ongoing in plain sight behaviour have passed without notice, long before notice was taken?

It suggest an alarming level of complacent disarray, to put it mildly, imo.
 
Last edited:
And just to add to the 'confounding' that I'm struggling with, LL's alleged 'in plain sight' activities surely also demand serious scrutiny and questions to be asked of the management and practices of the neonatal unit? How could such alleged ongoing in plain sight behaviour have passed without notice, long before notice was taken?

It suggest an alarming level of complacent disarray imo.
But it is exactly the chaotic environment that enables some people.
"Opportunity makes the thief" is a saying in my country.

I can imagine my boss - the stern headteacher - managing this ward haha
Everything would be running like clockwork.
No joke with her :)
 
Last edited:
It is astonishing and, if guilty of what she's been accused of, the recklessness of her actions is absolutely confounding to me. To be that comfortable in plain sight, with the ever-permanent risk of being found in the act, takes a level of quite audacious and astonishing cold-blooded nerve. It goes well beyond hidden in plain sight. It almost defies comprehension.

It's hard this business of trying to get inside the mind of an alleged serial killer.
I think the recklessness though, the risk taking, seems to me to be no greater than the sheer disregard for pain and for life. Those two aspects seem to me to be in keeping with each other.

The only thing I'm feeling about a possible motive at the moment, whoever did these acts, is a huge amount of hatred, a hatred so intense it's numbing, like not even acknowledged, compartmentalised, and unleashed like releasing a valve, and it isn't clear to me who this is directed at - the babies, the parents, or the colleagues. Perhaps it's the whole world.
 
I think the recklessness though, the risk taking, seems to me to be no greater than the sheer disregard for pain and for life. Those two aspects seem to me to be in keeping with each other.

The only thing I'm feeling about a possible motive at the moment, whoever did these acts, is a huge amount of hatred, a hatred so intense it's numbing, like not even acknowledged, compartmentalised, and unleashed like releasing a valve, and it isn't clear to me who this is directed at - the babies, the parents, or the colleagues. Perhaps it's the whole world.
This is what I see and feel too. Don’t know who it’s meant to harm the most.
 
I think the recklessness though, the risk taking, seems to me to be no greater than the sheer disregard for pain and for life. Those two aspects seem to me to be in keeping with each other.

The only thing I'm feeling about a possible motive at the moment, whoever did these acts, is a huge amount of hatred, a hatred so intense it's numbing, like not even acknowledged, compartmentalised, and unleashed like releasing a valve, and it isn't clear to me who this is directed at - the babies, the parents, or the colleagues. Perhaps it's the whole world.


To me, if guilty, the bit I'm really struggling with is that she had the ability/capacity to be able to see and articulate the absolutely devastating effect the deaths of the babies had on their parents... she speaks in texts of things like "Dad was on the floor crying saying 'please don't take our baby away' when we took him to the mortuary. It's just heartbreaking.” and then, if guilty, she goes and inflicts that pain again?, sometimes on parents who had already lost one baby. Suggesting that, if guilty, she does not find it heartbreaking at all, in fact quite the opposite.
 
I just can't be convinced it wasn't the same bag . I think they have covered all possibilities because they can't be sure.

Best practice is that everything is changed when the long line is changed..but as it was only stopped for an hour or so I wouldn't be surprised if it was left hanging at the cot side and reconnected to the new line.

I feel if a fresh bag was put up it would be documented. The bag number would be registered on the sheet and the fluid balance chart would show it also

I strongly suspect that the prosecution also think this but IIRC you can't just cross examine your own witness, you have to have them declared "hostile" if you want to aggressively challenge them.



I'm not a lawyer, and the sources above focus on the US and Ireland respectively but I imagine the principle is similar
across common law countries.

There's also a delicacy for the prosecution in highlighting the fallibility of the medical testimony in general and staff at Countess of Chester hospital in particular. If they can't full rely on the notes and they can't fully rely on the witnesses and who knows what other mistakes they were making, then that has ramifications for many of the other cases. It's potentially a double edged sword for both sides but especially for the prosecution as they're the ones with the burden of proof.
 
To me, if guilty, the bit I'm really struggling with is that she had the ability/capacity to be able to see and articulate the absolutely devastating effect the deaths of the babies had on their parents... she speaks in texts of things like "Dad was on the floor crying saying 'please don't take our baby away' when we took him to the mortuary. It's just heartbreaking.” and then, if guilty, she goes and inflicts that pain again?, sometimes on parents who had already lost one baby. Suggesting that, if guilty, she does not find it heartbreaking at all, in fact quite the opposite.
I think it would show that the words are an act and a learned behaviour, to express something that is not felt at all. IMO In general, serial killing and deception go hand in hand.
 
It is astonishing and, if guilty of what she's been accused of, the recklessness of her actions is absolutely confounding to me. To be that comfortable in plain sight, with the ever-permanent risk of being found in the act, takes a level of quite audacious and astonishing cold-blooded nerve. It goes well beyond hidden in plain sight. It almost defies comprehension.

It's hard this business of trying to get inside the mind of an alleged serial killer.

It's the different methodologies that are hard to reconcile with each other. If the air embolism narrative is true then she perfected an inconspicuous, low risk method of meeting whatever Munchausen like need she was alleged to be fulfilling - almost ingenious really. The insulin cases (or at least this one) could be seen as a calculated risk to divert attention by creating a problem when she wasn't there. It's the intentionally perforating the oesophagus, as she was alleged to have done with Child E, that borders on insanity in my opinion. If an autopsy were performed it would inevitably raise questions. If she, as Dr Evans suggested, intentionally inserted a surgical introducer to achieve, just imagine how this would look if a colleague walked in at just the wrong moment.


I think this is why the prosecution aren't pinning themselves down with a motive as has been the case with other healthcare serial killers:

Beverley Allitt: Munchausen's
Ben Geen: liked to play the hero
Colin Norris: hated old people.

It's helpful to seal the deal with the Jury to have a neat narrative, but they've eschewed that in this case because the narratives of the individual cases are just so chaotic.
 
I think it would show that the words are an act and a learned behaviour, to express something that is not felt at all. IMO In general, serial killing and deception go hand in hand.


I think we've seen some really horrible cold, calculating characters in past cases, Ian Stewart, Ben Butler spring to mind... but this case is a whole other level. There's the fact that there are so many victims, and they are all tiny, vulnerable newborns, and the alleged killer was befriending and offering support to the parents on one hand whilst harming and/or killing their babies on the other. It's a total headf*ck. Sorry can't think of any other word to describe it!
 
It's the different methodologies that are hard to reconcile with each other. If the air embolism narrative is true then she perfected an inconspicuous, low risk method of meeting whatever Munchausen like need she was alleged to be fulfilling - almost ingenious really. The insulin cases (or at least this one) could be seen as a calculated risk to divert attention by creating a problem when she wasn't there. It's the intentionally perforating the oesophagus, as she was alleged to have done with Child E, that borders on insanity in my opinion. If an autopsy were performed it would inevitably raise questions. If she, as Dr Evans suggested, intentionally inserted a surgical introducer to achieve, just imagine how this would look if a colleague walked in at just the wrong moment.


I think this is why the prosecution aren't pinning themselves down with a motive as has been the case with other healthcare serial killers:

Beverley Allitt: Munchausen's
Ben Geen: liked to play the hero
Colin Norris: hated old people.

It's helpful to seal the deal with the Jury to have a neat narrative, but they've eschewed that in this case because the narratives of the individual cases are just so chaotic.
Different methods strike me as "experimenting".
Done on twins (allegedly) reminds me of a certain "doctor" - Mengele in Auschwitz - nazi concentration camp in terrible times of WWII.

Moo
 
This is what I see and feel too. Don’t know who it’s meant to harm the most.
Likewise, I also have a similar view.

One thing that has struck me though was one of the police reports (I can’t recall which!) where they had pointed out to LL one of the nurses views were different- to which LL replied during that same interview something along the lines of “perhaps because she was more experienced than said colleague”

I realise we can’t be certain on more details on this just by reading that statement by following the trial; but I got the impression LL response (to being questioned by another nurse she felt she was more experienced than) was one of irritation/annoyance, almost like one would suggest for example; how dare you I am more experienced.

Thinking back to the nurse where LL told her off for calling for help, the other nurse was quite shocked. Another scenario, the nurse wanted to settle the baby and LL told her it was fine and they would sort it out.

Whilst I also can’t work out if harm is intended towards the parents, babies or colleagues (I personally think it’s more than one here IMO), here we see some perfect examples of irritation directed at colleagues. Jealously perhaps; “new girl” is mentioned more than twice,..was she more popular, attractive, how many of her colleagues had children/families themselves etc for example.. who knows?
 
Different methods strike me as "experimenting".
Done on twins (allegedly) reminds me of a certain "doctor" - Mengele in Auschwitz - nazi concentration camp in terrible times of WWII.

Moo

It seems to me that the evidence is getting stronger as we move through the different cases. The allegations are becoming more difficult to explain away. I don't think this is a coincidence. If guilty, I think this shows a level of caution at the outset, natural when one is starting to experiment with a new idea, but then the perpetrator becomes more confident, more reckless, more willing to take risks. So, the evidence becomes more damning.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
156
Guests online
551
Total visitors
707

Forum statistics

Threads
608,265
Messages
18,236,934
Members
234,326
Latest member
CriminallyChallenged
Back
Top