UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

[LadyEdgeworth]

Chester standard is back with live updates today so I will be posting those when we get them, here is their write up from yesterday. It's pretty much what we've seen in the tweets

Lucy Letby trial: Doctor apologises over lack of post-mortem examination on baby

A DOCTOR has apologised in court for not “pushing” for a post-mortem examination of a baby boy allegedly murdered by Countess of Chester…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[5W's]

In thread 7 these comments got my eye.

• #840

Isn't 15ml the equivalent of 3 teaspoonsful? That seems a lot for such a tiny baby to lose - I don't understand why it apparently wasn't considered urgent then?

Agreed. I'm getting the impression that lots and lots of things should have been done that weren't. <modsnip - sub judice> then I think it's likely that she could have been stopped a lot earlier if the hospital was doing its job properly!
"End quote"

Unbelievable! I just want to add a further comment here IMO I thimk this type of laxness happens more often than not, I'm sorry to say. Ther's always some explanation given, but really? It should not happen at all. People want to give the benefit of doubt. So really those who do give the benefit of the doubt are just adding to this serious problem.

​

MsBetsy​

• Monday at 9:30 PM
• #821

[/QUOTE]

Isn't 15ml the equivalent of 3 teaspoonsful? That seems a lot for such a tiny baby to lose - I don't understand why it apparently wasn't considered urgent then?

One of the Doctors on the ward said he had 'never seen a baby bleed like this,' and the child lost 'more than a quarter of his total blood volume.'

Internal bleeding is life threatening. I would think a Doctor would have been called at the first sign of bleeding from the mouth at 9:00 pm when Baby E's mother brought the milk.
"End quote"

A doctor commented on this. I'm assuming the same night! WHAT???? Do you see the pattern I"m getting at?

[/HEADING]
[HEADING=3]katydid23​

• Tuesday at 1:56 AM
• Add bookmark
• #838

Mr Myers said LL's case is the mother took the milk at around 10pm.

It is a good thing her phone records and her husband's testimony support her version---which is she went to her baby's room around 9 pm.
"End Quote"

So its the familie's of the dead and harmed babies to produce evidence to support accusations. So sad! Yes if this so called nurse hadn't been caught perhaps all evidence would have been lost. I mean video footage of her maniacle wanderings in the hopital/s(?) would be no longer available as it was a period of years this occurred.

 

[Kemug]

did anyone know the unit was closed six times in 2015 due to staff activity? I’m not sure what this means but it would be interesting to see if it coincided with the times where there were no suspicious events on the ward.

Could this mean that the staff were on strike? (seems like they may have had cause, IMO!)

 

[JosieJo]

The interruption in the fluids that day happened because they were putting in a new long line, according to prosecution. I think the professors opinion appears to suggest the giving set wasn't changed.

Aaah I see .

 

[JosieJo]

Could this mean that the staff were on strike? (seems like they may have had cause, IMO!)

Usually when they say a unit has "closed" they mean they do not take new admissions that day as they do not have enough staff to safely look after more patients..its usually for short periods and arrangements are made for patients to attend another hospital during this time

 

[5W's]

Could this mean that the staff were on strike? (seems like they may have had cause, IMO!)

Or maybe they were incompetant in handeling issues. IMO something is not right here. No I don't think it was a strike. It is closed for a reason. Could it be that other staff were worried that they could be in trouble and covered thier actions and by covering thier own actions of perhaps negligence or lacness they were able to take the blame away from everyone else incuding Letby unknowingly? Unforyunately sometimes in workplaces this is what happens because people are desperate to keep working and will cover thmeselves and in doing so causes other issues as in a perp not getting caught unkown to the person covering themselves.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I do not think its been covered yet in any detail
Imo I'd be very surprised if the giving set was not changed with the bag.
But ..the lines directly to the baby that are there all the time eg the UVC or longline or cannula may in theory hold the insulin from a previous bag

Does that not defeat the purpose of changing the meds and equipment? I’m assuming they would only change it if it was suspected that some part and thus all of the equipment was contaminated?

Re LL's "bad luck" - I have never been in the position of knowing an "alleged" killer, and failing to suspect them, but I suppose it is not a surprising thing. It would be a sad world if our first thought was to suspect our friends!

Box 1 summarizes characteristics of health care murderers described anecdotally in case reviews.2,3,8 It is common for those committing HCSM to be caught because a colleague or staff member raises concerns based on suspicious characteristics in the context of unusual or concerning circumstances. An index of suspicion from other staff (including physicians) in response to unusual or repeated events is crucial to stopping HCSM; unfortunately, this commonly happens only after multiple deaths.

also notice how this case lacks an index of suspicion by colleagues other than people noticing she was around at the same time as the events.

Health care serial murder: What can we learn from the Wettlaufer story?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

looking at this case, so many remarkable and noticeable events really fits the bill. “It is common for those committing HCSM to be caught because a colleague or staff member raises concerns based on suspicious characteristics in the context of unusual or concerning circumstances.” Babies collapsing within two minutes of an injection is certainly unusual.

the reason we don’t generally suspect people of murder is that it is quite rare, exceptionally rare within a health care setting and even rarer on a neonatal ward and is most often the result of very human emotions not callous deliberate targeting of any particular group which is extremely rare. Even with hcsm the cases nearly always involve the elderly, deemed to be undesirable in some way. However, the Rarer something is the more likely it is that it will be noticed IMO.

Notice how a rare and unseen element in the cases is noticed and integral to the prosecution in regards to the skin discolouration seen as unusual.
“THE unusual skin discolouration of a baby boy “didn’t fit with anything I had ever seen”, a consultant doctor told the murder trial of nurse Lucy Letby.”

Lucy Letby trial: Consultant tells court skin marks on dying baby ‘didn’t fit with anything he’d seen’

THE unusual skin discolouration of a baby boy “didn’t fit with anything I had ever seen”, a consultant doctor told the murder trial of nurse…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

<modsnip - off topic>

<modsnip - off topic>

<modsnip - off topic>

<modsnip - sub judice>

moo.

 

[Jazmania]

I've been thinking about a potential motive for why Lucy Letby would begin allegedly killing babies. From the text evidence it seems like she is potentially quite an emotional person who may be prone to melodrama. Although a baby dying in your care would be a very upsetting thing to witness, the texts seem to suggest she was dwelling on it in a way that her colleagues were concerned about, hence suggesting time off etc. I think this is also supported by the note which seems to be an extreme outpouring of emotions. Lucy herself has said that she wrote this note as a way of getting all her emotions together and dealing with what was going on.

So my theory is that (if guilty) she is harming these babies because she gets some kind of emotional high or catharsis out of experiencing the grief alongside and with the parents. And if the baby doesn't die, she's wallowing in their gratitude and almost worship. Also perhaps she enjoys the feeling of her colleagues all coming together and offering her support.

The evidence that has made me think this is:

• After each baby has died she seems to place herself at the centre of where the parents are, even when this is very inappropriate. I think it was baby C who was assigned another nurse, but nevertheless Lucy insisted on being in the room where the parents were grieving, and had to repeatedly be told to leave
• She often seems to take it upon herself to prepare the memory box and foot and hand casts, even when this hasn't been asked for or it is not her job to do so. I think with baby E the prosecution will say Lucy prepared the memory box without asking the consent of the parents.
• She often attempts to connect with and almost share the grief with he parents. For example stakes a photo of baby F hugging E's teddy, she sends one set of parents a condolence card and takes a photo of it almost as a memento. She wants to bathe baby E, and talks to another parent of how she bathed their baby when he or she was alive.
• The continual obsessive Facebook stalking, which could be her wanting to learn about how the parents are coping, and perhaps experience their grief in some way.
• Her texts where she said she said she 'wished she had been there and that would stay with me forever' when a parent dropped off a thank you gift to the unit, or that both parents had cried and hugged her, 'saying they’d never be able to thank me enough for the love and care I gave them', or that 'I just feel sad that they’re thinking of me when they’ve lost him' (which in my opinion is a really weird thing to say)

So that's my theory, and I think what the prosecution are building towards. The only thing that I can think of that goes against it is when she said she didn't want to be baby B's assigned nurse because she didn't want to see the parents. Of course some of these things could just show that she is a really caring nurse. However taken together I think they point to her going above and beyond what is normal and certainly what is professional.

 

[JosieJo]

Does that not defeat the purpose of changing the meds and equipment? I’m assuming they would only change it if it was suspected that some part and thus all of the equipment was contaminated?


Box 1 summarizes characteristics of health care murderers described anecdotally in case reviews.2,3,8 It is common for those committing HCSM to be caught because a colleague or staff member raises concerns based on suspicious characteristics in the context of unusual or concerning circumstances. An index of suspicion from other staff (including physicians) in response to unusual or repeated events is crucial to stopping HCSM; unfortunately, this commonly happens only after multiple deaths.

also notice how this case lacks an index of suspicion by colleagues other than people noticing she was around at the same time as the events.

Health care serial murder: What can we learn from the Wettlaufer story?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

looking at this case, so many remarkable and noticeable events really fits the bill. “It is common for those committing HCSM to be caught because a colleague or staff member raises concerns based on suspicious characteristics in the context of unusual or concerning circumstances.” Babies collapsing within two minutes of an injection is certainly unusual.

the reason we don’t generally suspect people of murder is that it is quite rare, exceptionally rare within a health care setting and even rarer on a neonatal ward and is most often the result of very human emotions not callous deliberate targeting of any particular group which is extremely rare. Even with hcsm the cases nearly always involve the elderly, deemed to be undesirable in some way. However, the Rarer something is the more likely it is that it will be noticed IMO.

Notice how a rare and unseen element in the cases is noticed and integral to the prosecution in regards to the skin discolouration seen as unusual.
“THE unusual skin discolouration of a baby boy “didn’t fit with anything I had ever seen”, a consultant doctor told the murder trial of nurse Lucy Letby.”

Lucy Letby trial: Consultant tells court skin marks on dying baby ‘didn’t fit with anything he’d seen’

THE unusual skin discolouration of a baby boy “didn’t fit with anything I had ever seen”, a consultant doctor told the murder trial of nurse…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

<modsnip - off topic>

<modsnip - off topic>

<modsnip - off topic>

<modsnip - sub judice>

moo.

My comment was based on starting each new ton bag ....but it's since been pointed out they had to stop the tpn bag to change the catheter

 

[Jazmania]

I've been thinking about a potential motive for why Lucy Letby would begin allegedly killing babies. From the text evidence it seems like she is potentially quite an emotional person who may be prone to melodrama. Although a baby dying in your care would be a very upsetting thing to witness, the texts seem to suggest she was dwelling on it in a way that her colleagues were concerned about, hence suggesting time off etc. I think this is also supported by the note which seems to be an extreme outpouring of emotions. Lucy herself has said that she wrote this note as a way of getting all her emotions together and dealing with what was going on.

So my theory is that (if guilty) she is harming these babies because she gets some kind of emotional high or catharsis out of experiencing the grief alongside and with the parents. And if the baby doesn't die, she's wallowing in their gratitude and almost worship. Also perhaps she enjoys the feeling of her colleagues all coming together and offering her support.

The evidence that has made me think this is:

• After each baby has died she seems to place herself at the centre of where the parents are, even when this is very inappropriate. I think it was baby C who was assigned another nurse, but nevertheless Lucy insisted on being in the room where the parents were grieving, and had to repeatedly be told to leave
• She often seems to take it upon herself to prepare the memory box and foot and hand casts, even when this hasn't been asked for or it is not her job to do so. I think with baby E the prosecution will say Lucy prepared the memory box without asking the consent of the parents.
• She often attempts to connect with and almost share the grief with he parents. For example stakes a photo of baby F hugging E's teddy, she sends one set of parents a condolence card and takes a photo of it almost as a memento. She wants to bathe baby E, and talks to another parent of how she bathed their baby when he or she was alive.
• The continual obsessive Facebook stalking, which could be her wanting to learn about how the parents are coping, and perhaps experience their grief in some way.
• Her texts where she said she said she 'wished she had been there and that would stay with me forever' when a parent dropped off a thank you gift to the unit, or that both parents had cried and hugged her, 'saying they’d never be able to thank me enough for the love and care I gave them', or that 'I just feel sad that they’re thinking of me when they’ve lost him' (which in my opinion is a really weird thing to say)

So that's my theory, and I think what the prosecution are building towards. The only thing that I can think of that goes against it is when she said she didn't want to be baby B's assigned nurse because she didn't want to see the parents. Of course some of these things could just show that she is a really caring nurse. However taken together I think they point to her going above and beyond what is normal and certainly what is professional.

Oh also the confessed feelings of boredom when nothing is going on and all the babies she is caring for are relatively well and straightforward.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

11:23am

The judge, Mr Justice James Goss, explains that travel difficulties have led to the court's delayed start.
Philip Astbury, for the prosecution, is calling Dr David Harkness to give evidence.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 17

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Sweeper2000]

Can anyone figure out why mr Myers is emphasising the doctor steering away from the post mortem? Is it his thinking that it discredits the doctors professional credibility And maybe the hospital as a whole?
“Mr Myers suggested: “You, in effect, steered them away from a post-mortem?”

The witness said: “I don’t believe that was the case.”

On Monday, Child E’s mother told jurors the doctor told them a post-mortem “would not tell us very much”.

She said she and her husband decided not to ask for one “largely” because it was explained to them there was “little point”.”

Lucy Letby trial: Doctor apologises over lack of post-mortem examination on baby

A DOCTOR has apologised in court for not “pushing” for a post-mortem examination of a baby boy allegedly murdered by Countess of Chester…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Jazmania]

Can anyone figure out why mr Myers is emphasising the doctor steering away from the post mortem? Is it his thinking that it discredits the doctors professional credibility And maybe the hospital as a whole?
“Mr Myers suggested: “You, in effect, steered them away from a post-mortem?”

The witness said: “I don’t believe that was the case.”

On Monday, Child E’s mother told jurors the doctor told them a post-mortem “would not tell us very much”.

She said she and her husband decided not to ask for one “largely” because it was explained to them there was “little point”.”

Lucy Letby trial: Doctor apologises over lack of post-mortem examination on baby

A DOCTOR has apologised in court for not “pushing” for a post-mortem examination of a baby boy allegedly murdered by Countess of Chester…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Yes I think that is what he is trying to do - discredit the doctor and build a 'this hospital is failing' narrative.

However in my opinion while it does damage the reputation of the doctor and hospital a bit, it also backfires as I think it makes Mr Myers appear like he also thinks there ought to have been a post-mortem because the death was suspicious. This goes against his 'vulnerable babies dying of natural causes' theory.

 

[katydid23]

Chester standard is back with live updates today so I will be posting those when we get them, here is their write up from yesterday. It's pretty much what we've seen in the tweets

Lucy Letby trial: Doctor apologises over lack of post-mortem examination on baby

A DOCTOR has apologised in court for not “pushing” for a post-mortem examination of a baby boy allegedly murdered by Countess of Chester…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Are there no live updates today?

 

[Kemug]

Call me old-fashioned, but I don't approve of all this texting going on while at work. Not always from work, I know, but seemingly pretty often. Heaps of time to to do that, but never enough time to write up the notes? And surely it must sometimes affect concentrating properly on your patients?

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

11:26am

Dr Harkness, a paediatric registrar at the Countess of Chester Hospital in summer 2015, is being asked about Child E on the night shift of August 3.
He says they started that shift at about 8.30-9pm. He explains, with working in different hospitals, it is difficult to remember the shift patterns.
He explains there would have been a handover period, where he would have read a handover sheet for the various patients and any outstanding conditions those patients had.
There would be one sheet for the paediatric ward and one for the neonatal ward.
If there were any sick children in A&E, the doctors would have been responsible in attending to them too.
He says the handover period would have lasted about 30 minutes.

11:29am

He says some tasks would have required him to work with Dr Christopher Wood, his colleague on the night, and some would have been done solo.
He says his tasks would have included speaking to nurses and seeing the neonatal unit babies.
He says if there was nothing outstanding happening on the neonatal unit, he would be there at 10-10.30pm.
He says for this night he was called over at 10pm, having been called over because Child E had blood in his vomit.
'Small amounts of blood' - minuscule blood flecks - were spotted when the NG Tube was brought out of Child E, he recalls.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 17

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[katydid23]

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 17​

By Mark Dowling
Share

• Trial of Lucy Letby in sixth week before a jury
• Prosecution delivering evidence in cases of twins, Child E and Child F
• Letby denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more

2:39am

The trial is expected to resume at about 10.45am, with 'traffic difficulties' understood to be the cause of the slight delay.
Lucy Letby has already arrived and is, as ever, accompanied by a dock officer.

2:48am

The traffic delays may include the collision on the M56 motorway this morning, which the Highways Agency says has led to 60-minute travel delays between Chester and Manchester.


3:18am

After a delay, the court is now ready to resume the trial.

3:23am

The judge, Mr Justice James Goss, explains that travel difficulties have led to the court's delayed start.
Philip Astbury, for the prosecution, is calling Dr David Harkness to give evidence.



3:26am

Dr Harkness, a paediatric registrar at the Countess of Chester Hospital in summer 2015, is being asked about Child E on the night shift of August 3.

He says they started that shift at about 8.30-9pm. He explains, with working in different hospitals, it is difficult to remember the shift patterns.

He explains there would have been a handover period, where he would have read a handover sheet for the various patients and any outstanding conditions those patients had.

There would be one sheet for the paediatric ward and one for the neonatal ward.
If there were any sick children in A&E, the doctors would have been responsible in attending to them too.
He says the handover period would have lasted about 30 minutes.

3:29am

He says some tasks would have required him to work with Dr Christopher Wood, his colleague on the night, and some would have been done solo.

He says his tasks would have included speaking to nurses and seeing the neonatal unit babies.

He says if there was nothing outstanding happening on the neonatal unit, he would be there at 10-10.30pm.

He says for this night he was called over at 10pm, having been called over because Child E had blood in his vomit.
'Small amounts of blood' - minuscule blood flecks - were spotted when the NG Tube was brought out of Child E, he recalls.

 

[katydid23]

11:26am

Dr Harkness, a paediatric registrar at the Countess of Chester Hospital in summer 2015, is being asked about Child E on the night shift of August 3.
He says they started that shift at about 8.30-9pm. He explains, with working in different hospitals, it is difficult to remember the shift patterns.
He explains there would have been a handover period, where he would have read a handover sheet for the various patients and any outstanding conditions those patients had.
There would be one sheet for the paediatric ward and one for the neonatal ward.
If there were any sick children in A&E, the doctors would have been responsible in attending to them too.
He says the handover period would have lasted about 30 minutes.

11:29am

He says some tasks would have required him to work with Dr Christopher Wood, his colleague on the night, and some would have been done solo.
He says his tasks would have included speaking to nurses and seeing the neonatal unit babies.
He says if there was nothing outstanding happening on the neonatal unit, he would be there at 10-10.30pm.
He says for this night he was called over at 10pm, having been called over because Child E had blood in his vomit.
'Small amounts of blood' - minuscule blood flecks - were spotted when the NG Tube was brought out of Child E, he recalls.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 17

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Oh, sorry LadyEdgeworth, I just posted some of these---I wasn't sure you were still here...GLAD to see you back, doing this correctly...lol

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

11:42am

The court is shown Dr Harkness's note from 10.10pm on August 3, which says 'asked to see patient [Child E] regarding gastric bleed.
'Large, very slightly bile-stained aspirate 30mins ago.'
The note adds: 'Sudden large vomit of fresh blood and 14ml aspirate.'
The doctor is given the opportunity to look through his clinical notes, and Lucy Letby's nursing notes from that shift, to see the chronology of events that night.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 17

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

Oh, sorry LadyEdgeworth, I just posted some of these---I wasn't sure you were still here...GLAD to see you back, doing this correctly...lol

No worries! There was a long delay to it starting today and then the updating has been slow, I usually try and wait until there's 2-3 updates and then post to avoid posting over and over again but I did go radio silent for a bit lol