UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

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I'm only as far as reading Dr. Harkness's testimony. He comes across and thorough and earnest. This answers some questions I have had. I believe/speculate that multiple things have happened here.

1. There was trauma inflicted on Baby E around the time that mum saw him. Based on the testimony, I would guess the damage was not in his upper throat as LL suggested to mum, but maybe lower in his esophagus.

2. From that trauma came the bleeding. I find it very believable and reasonable that Dr. H felt the first 14 mL blood loss would not have been an emergency, in and of itself. I also find it reasonable that he attempted to proceed in an urgent and rational but non-emergency manner in order to reduce the possibility of mistakes and be safer for Baby E.

3. If air was deliberately injected as alleged, it would have happened shortly before the purple discoloration. Slow injection would give the body time to clear the air (from capillary bed of lungs to alveoli) before it became a problem, rather than delaying a collapse. The air won't accumulate unless there is constant entry (such as described in the paper from 80s describing air entry from ventilator induced lung trauma). I think the most likely time would be between 11:30 and 11:40 when a lot of prescriptions were being written and meds were being given. If any meds were given IV push, air could been injected right into whatever venous access was being used. This could look like actually giving a medication, or flushing it in, or flushing the line to check for patency before connecting an infusion. All these are completely unremarkable actions during a situation like this. Less likely to me, would be air being put into one of the lines of fluids to slowly work it's way to the baby, unless it was accidental.

4. I await the expert testimony but I expect they will suggest that the combination of tissue trauma, large amounts of bleeding and an air embolism resulted in a lot of Tissue Factor being released, which would rapidly lead to massive clotting followed by massive bleeding (this is known as DIC) due to exhausted clotting factors. That could be what happened when poor little E was being resuscitated and a large amount of blood was coming out of his mouth. That is what I believe Dr. Harkness was referring to when he mentioned seeing "this amount of bleeding" in a teenager.

This is all just my opinion.

That's pretty much how I'm understanding it too. That something or someone caused the baby to be bleeding from 9pm onwards and that just before 11.40pm someone injected air into the baby.
 
As to what Dr. Harkness was doing, if he was preparing for intubation, he's focused on doing that - gathering the supplies, making sure they work, making sure the baby is going to be comfortably sedated - and trusting the nursing staff to do what is ordered as far as medications etc. Being in the room means he is aware of Baby E's vital signs but not that he is overseeing nursing tasks.

thanks for the details again, it’s difficult to put yourself in others shoes without them.

im wondering what is meant by “The air won't accumulate unless there is constant entry “? Does that mean it could only have been or more likely to be a quick plunge of the syringe That caused the blockage? Isn’t it also true that if air was injected as alleged that death would have happened within the next hour at most? I remembered you saying about gas in blood being potentially filtered out but thought if lethality is greater by speed of gas entry it would accumulate quicker With a syringe applied quickly.

@JosieJo
“It's interesting that the collapse and rash occurred around the time the Dr suggested an x ray followed by him talking to Alder Hay”

isn’t it just? Keen observation there, down to two minutes maybe.

is it stated if it was just LL in the room at this time? I would have thought you might need more than one doctor and nurse for this situation.

Well this is all very very harrowing Indeed. Props to the fellow posters here, both for your skills and engagement.

This case in particular has quite a fine net, not many gaps here. it’s not watertight yet but it seems to be getting there.
 
Why isn’t the prosecution outlining what they suggest happened? Are the jurors supposed to guess when and what LL might’ve done? It’s very difficult and vague. Surely the prosecution should say something like: “we suggest at x o’clock she did so and so, then after 30 mins she did this and that. Then she..”
Is this going to be part of the trial?

We're still only just over one month in. I used the term 'scene-setting' in an earlier post and I do still feel we're really not much beyond that now. There's 5 months of evidence still ahead of us for both the prosecution and the defence to put their cases.

I do feel for the jury.
 
@Sweeper2000 I agree, there may have been more than one nurse. At that point, Dr. Harkness may have been the only doctor available. But each person will be focused on their own task towards the greater goal of stabilizing the patient. They are aware of what their colleagues are doing but they are not standing over them because everyone should have their own task to tend to. Or else they are just crowding the room! Once the situation becomes an emergency, many people have to act together in a coordinated way, and so people will begin to call out what they are doing, repeat back orders, vocalize what the vital signs and so on.

“The air won't accumulate unless there is constant entry “

I should correct myself to say that my understanding is "constant entry" (like from ventilator induced lung damage) or else the introduction of "a lot" of air all at once is necessary to displace enough blood to cause cardiac or respiratory collapse.

5 mL/kg is often given as the lethal dose of air. These numbers are estimates that come from retrospective analysis of accidental deaths. So 5mL/kg is 6mL for a 1.2 kg baby. If only 0.1 or 0.5mL is injected, that is unlikely to cause any harm. A tiny little air bubble will go around the body, into the heart, to the lungs, and then get exhaled. It will not significantly displace blood as it travels through the tissues and is therefore unlikely to cause ischemia or blockage. 0.5mL could be given at intervals over several hours, 12 times, leading up to a cumulative 6mL dose, but since all the air is getting filtered out and exhaled, it's going to do no harm, not lead to a delayed collapse. (In fact there are certain types of cardiac imaging that use injected air to produce bubbles... the article ) The air doesn't stick around in the body and accumulate. If 6mL of air is infused, say via a line, and it goes in at a rate of 0.5mL per hour, that will take 12 hours, and my understanding is that it's unlikely to cause harm (even though it certainly wouldn't be a best practice). If it goes in at gravity (fast), by pressure bag (fast) or by injection that's going to cause a problem. If 6-10mL is given at one go, in one swoosh/push, then all the air is going in all together. That can cause ischemia wherever it travels because it's going to displace blood from a significant part of the vessel. This is what the authors of the 1989 paper on PVE speculate causes the skin discolorations. These authors also noted there was so much air in the circulation that the blood was frothy when it was withdrawn by catheter. (They considered this frothiness diagnostic of this particular type of embolism.)

This article below suggests that venous air embolism is deadly when there is enough in the blood vessels to displaces blood going from the heart to the lungs, essentially blocking the lungs from getting and oxygenating any more blood. It functions like a clot (which is why it's called an embolism).

(Volume of Air in a Lethal Venous Air Embolism)

Following this understanding, a moderate amount of air given quickly might displace some blood and cause a collapse but through CPR the person might survive (pumping the heart, moving the blood). If it's a large amount given quickly, then you have the situation where everything is done and yet, the person is unable to be revived because there is too much air in the circulation to clear out, and so circulation is never restored, or it's restored but the patient might be profoundly injured.
 
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Why isn’t the prosecution outlining what they suggest happened? Are the jurors supposed to guess when and what LL might’ve done? It’s very difficult and vague. Surely the prosecution should say something like: “we suggest at x o’clock she did so and so, then after 30 mins she did this and that. Then she..”
Is this going to be part of the trial?

It's possible that the lawyers preparing the Crown's case aren't quite able to pull together the medical experts' theories (particularly those of Dr Evans) and the circumstantial evidence into a fully coherent and satisfying forensic narrative.

This actually happened in a trial I witnessed parts of IRL. It related to the death of a baby for which the parents were on trial. The bulk of the medical and circumstantial evidence, which included a range of electronic and communications evidence showing in detail what was going on in the household on the day of the injury, pointed to a particular narrative of what actually happened, IMO. Unfortunately one expert put a spanner in the works with some very confident pronouncements about the significance of retinal haemorrhages at post mortem.

I did briefly speak to one of the prosecution barristers after the trial ended and it seemed like they agreed with my opinion about what happened (which contradicted the basis of the convictions) but the experts couldn't quite all be pinned down to support it. Consequently they ended up waving their hands and- in the words of one of the defence barristers- "riding two horses at once."

In a case like this I imagine they wouldn't want to draw the jury's attention too much to the complexity of the medical evidence and the degree to which interpreting it is an art as much as a science, when it's the lynchpin of the whole case- particularly Dewey Evans' theories.
 
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The Dr wouldn't remember as he wasn't t
As to what Dr. Harkness was doing, if he was preparing for intubation, he's focused on doing that - gathering the supplies, making sure they work, making sure the baby is going to be comfortably sedated - and trusting the nursing staff to do what is ordered as far as medications etc. Being in the room means he is aware of Baby E's vital signs but not that he is overseeing nursing tasks.
If he was not out of his depth as was suggested to him by BM and to which he replied that was wrong and disrespectful why the need to call a colleague because he was definitely out of his depth had no idea what to do and wasted crucial time all MOO obviously
 
As well as the evidence of baby E being on a two hourly feeding regime and his feed being due at 9pm, and the phone call the mother made to the father at 9.11pm, and the SHO not knowing anything about the bile aspirate and advice to omit the feed, there is also the evidence of baby E screaming and crying when the mother saw the blood on his face. (plus why would she ask LL why he was bleeding if the doctor was there? but I digress)

It's quite obvious (IMO) that this was not at the time that Dr Harkness was there - the two sets of observations don't resemble each other in the slightest.


"Mr Myers said: “I am suggesting there were three times you went down that evening.
“I am going to suggest you went down about 8pm… then actually it’s nearer to 10pm – rather than 9pm – when you went down with the breast milk. And you then went back again when (Child E) was being resuscitated at about 11pm.
“Do you disagree with that?”
Child E’s mother said: “Absolutely.”
Mr Myers went on: “I am not going to suggest that (Child E) was not upset when you went down. I am going to suggest he was not as upset to the degree you described. It was not as bad as that?”
The witness replied: “ It was horrendous.”


"Dr Harkness is asked about Letby's nursing note made on the night shift of August 3, which refer to Child E's mum visiting at 10pm and she was informed by Letby and Dr Harkness about blood coming from the NG Tube. It refers to 'she was updated by Reg Harkness and contained [Child E]'. The note is shown to the court. Dr Harkness confirms it was the note shown to him. He does not know what 'contained' meant in the context."

"Ben Myers KC, for Letby's defence, opens by mentioning about Letby's note made. Mr Myers says a 'containment technique' was used, as described by Child E's mother, to clarify the 'contained' comment. It was a technique used to calm a baby.
Mr Myers says the police statement said Child E had 'nothing dramatic' around the baby's face, and could not be sure if there were any blood flecks. Child E was 'not in distress' and 'appeared fine'.
'[Child E] looked relatively settled"


links Mother ‘completely trusted’ nurse when she left ‘screaming’ son in her care
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 17
 
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In the sense that he would have been distracted on the phone?

Possibly? I was thinking more as an impetus. If Baby E was about to be transported to a more acute facility with better resources, imaging tools, ENTs/Peds GI docs with endoscopes etc, the doctors there would investigate the causes of the bleeding and treat him. If there was deliberate harm done to baby E, then in the course of that, the other hospital might find evidence of it. A person with criminal intent might be motivated to prevent that transfer.
 
@crowmarsh, I'm sorry the quote function is making it hard for me to read your post but I take it you believe Dr. H was out of his depth and should have called another doctor in? Perhaps this will be addressed futher in the testimony? To me it sounds like he may have been the only doctor on the unit at the time. It sounds like he telephoned someone for advice, whether it was a colleague at his hospital, or a neonatologist at the hospital they wanted to transport the baby to. Usually the receiving hospital will act as medical control and provide advice to the transporting hospital until the baby is able to be moved.
 
@crowmarsh, I'm sorry the quote function is making it hard for me to read your post but I take it you believe Dr. H was out of his depth and should have called another doctor in? Perhaps this will be addressed futher in the testimony? To me it sounds like he may have been the only doctor on the unit at the time. It sounds like he telephoned someone for advice, whether it was a colleague at his hospital, or a neonatologist at the hospital they wanted to transport the baby to. Usually the receiving hospital will act as medical control and provide advice to the transporting hospital until the baby is able to be moved.
My point was that he claimed he was not out of his depth and was offended that this point was put to him but he clearly was otherwise there would be no need for him to call a colleague
 
As well as the evidence of baby E being on a two hourly feeding regime and his feed being due at 9pm, and the phone call the mother made to the father at 9.11pm, and the SHO not knowing anything about the bile aspirate and advice to omit the feed, there is also the evidence of baby E screaming and crying when the mother saw the blood on his face. (plus why would she ask LL why he was bleeding if the doctor was there? but I digress)

It's quite obvious (IMO) that this was not at the time that Dr Harkness was there - the two sets of observations don't resemble each other in the slightest.

It does present compelling evidence that she did something that she wasn't supposed to, at 9PM, whether through negligence or design, it had something to do with the bleeding at that time, and then she lied to cover it up.

What's not massively clear is what that had to do with the later collapse as he was well and stable, according to Dr Harkness, over an hour later:



11:29am

He says some tasks would have required him to work with Dr Christopher Wood, his colleague on the night, and some would have been done solo.
He says his tasks would have included speaking to nurses and seeing the neonatal unit babies.
He says if there was nothing outstanding happening on the neonatal unit, he would be there at 10-10.30pm.
He says for this night he was called over at 10pm, having been called over because Child E had blood in his vomit.
'Small amounts of blood' - minuscule blood flecks - were spotted when the NG Tube was brought out of Child E, he recalls.

11:42am

The court is shown Dr Harkness's note from 10.10pm on August 3, which says 'asked to see patient [Child E] regarding gastric bleed.
'Large, very slightly bile-stained aspirate 30mins ago.'
The note adds: 'Sudden large vomit of fresh blood and 14ml aspirate.'
The doctor is given the opportunity to look through his clinical notes, and Lucy Letby's nursing notes from that shift, to see the chronology of events that night.

11:47am

The court is now shown the 10.10pm note.
He says it is not clear, from his note, how much of the 14ml aspirate contained 'fresh blood'.
He says the fresh blood was what he had witnessed, having been called over to see it. The court hears he did not see the child vomit, but saw the fresh blood as a product of it.

11:51am

He notes Child E's blood pressure was 'very good', a CRT reading was good, the heart rate was 'normal' and saturation rates were good, with minimal oxygen support.
"At that point in time, everything is fine, except for the blood in the aspirate," he tells the court.
Child E was also 'pink, well perfused', the lungs were 'clear', the abdomen was 'soft, not distended'.

11:54am

Dr Harkness notes 'GI bleed ? Cause', and tells the court that is a possible diagnosis for the bleeding, and a plan of action with administration of antibiotics is made.
The note 'close observation' is made, emphasising the designated nurse - Lucy Letby - was to monitor Child E closely in room 1.

1:28pm

Mr Myers asks about the sequence of events.
He refers to a police statement Dr Harkness made, where the doctor says: "I was asked to review [Child E] by Letby [following the finding of a dirty aspirate].
'Looking at the notes it was 10pm-10.30pm...I only came on at 9pm'.
He described, in the statement, the aspirate which was largely mucus-y.
He said he could not be sure if there was a fleck of blood around Child E's face [on examination].
'[Child E] looked relatively settled and there was nothing to suggest that was ging to change'.

1:30pm

The statement adds: 'However, around half an hour to an hour later there was a large amount of fluid which came up the tube.
'From memory it was 12-14ml of blood which for a baby was a substantial amount'.
Child D brought up further 'fresh blood' in quantities which he had 'not seen [in sudden cases] since'.

1:38pm

Mr Myers asks about the initial stages from the first clinical note, at 10.10pm.
Dr Harkness confirms he has been asked to review Child E, following the bile-stained aspirate '30 mins ago'.
Mr Myers said all of what had happened in the 10.10pm note, had happened by 10.10pm.
Dr Harkness says this was a 40-minute period of several year ago. He said this was potentially a period of 9.30-10.10pm.
He said it would 'match up' with the note.
In the police statement, Dr Harkness said he would have been 'bleeped' by Lucy Letby.
He says that would have been the most common approach to be alerted to the nursery room 1.
He said he had seen 'a dirty aspirate which may have contained blood flecks and bile'.
Mr Myers says the police statement said Child E had 'nothing dramatic' around the baby's face, and could not be sure if there were any blood flecks.
Child E was 'not in distress' and 'appeared fine'.

1:39pm

Mr Myers asks if Dr Harkness had 'any particular concerns' from the first reading. Dr Harkness says there wasn't. He agrees the second note, with blood vomit, was 'more concerning' and suggested a gastrointestinal bleed.
Mr Myers asks if such a bleed was 'serious'.
"Potentially," Dr Harkness replies.

On the other hand it's difficult to marry with the overall narrative of the case where she's managed to develop an effective, silent, bloodless method of inducing collapses- for whatever reason- some of them fatal, with low risk of detection. She executes this method cooly and proficiently on multiple occasions with colleagues in the vicinity, if not directly observing her. Then on this occasion she branches out to doing something (possibly impulsively?) that causes bloody injury. That's a huge risk. It would also be a massive risk to then proceed to murder him with an air embolism, inviting further investigation, including autopsy (she was lucky-on this version of events- that that didn't take place), and the risk that the mother might say something about their 9 o'clock encounter, rather than just thanking her lucky stars that no major harm seemed to have been done.
 
@crowmarsh

Dr Harkness was the registra it would be routine to call the Consultant when a baby deteriorate...in fact it would be negligent not to.
It doesn't necessarily follow he was out of his depth with the decisions he had made up to that point
Did he make any decisions?
 
The consultant paediatrician Dr Harkness consulted gave evidence yesterday.

"Mr Myers suggests the consultant (who was on call) should have gone to the neonatal unit sooner than she did to treat E. “With hindsight I should have attended but I don’t think I would have made any different decisions [from the doctors who were at the unit]”.

 
The consultant paediatrician Dr Harkness consulted gave evidence yesterday.

"Mr Myers suggests the consultant (who was on call) should have gone to the neonatal unit sooner than she did to treat E. “With hindsight I should have attended but I don’t think I would have made any different decisions [from the doctors who were at the unit]”.

Well to quote MRD he (in this case she) would say that would'nt he (she)
 
It doesn’t make sense to me at all what the prosecution are suggesting. They say this incident with the blood on the chin at 9 pm was the reason LL allegedly falsified the notes. Assuming she was in the process of attacking Baby E why if she had had this questionable interaction with the mother at 9pm would she then go on to actually kill the child or attempt to? That’s making a bad situation worse and obviously not in alignment with someone supposedly trying to conceal her tracks. If she had already done something she is supposed to know would be suspicious why then go and do something that’s about 100 x more suspicious?
It is hard to expect someone to be logical or rational, if they are on a mission to harm children. So if she had begun 'attacking' this child, and was almost caught doing so, a rational reaction would be to stop because the mum already caught her out.

But a rational person doesn't set out to harm babies, so we can't expect them to have logical, objective reactions to danger, etc. JMO
 
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