UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

[Sweeper2000]

Problem is just because the Dr's were on the neonatal unit for a certain length of time does not mean they were in room 1 ..there will be main desk (nurses station) outside room 1 doors that's the main desk for the unit.

“Dr Harkness says, from his recollection, he does not believe he left the unit as the bleed was 'something unusual' in Child E so he does not believe he went very far.
For the 11pm note, he says Letby called him into room 1, where 'Further GI blood loss and desaturation to 70%' is noted.
Dr Harkness said he would then have been preparing to intubate and get the equipment ready.
Prescriptions are made from 11.28pm-11.30pm for a number of drugs.”

im just wondering that if he was preparing the equipment and making those prescriptions he most likely would have been in unit 1? At that time Baby E would have been his sole focus As the bleed was unusual. Would the doctor have delegated the preperation of the equipment rather than do it himself?

 

[BabaVanga]

Why isn’t the prosecution outlining what they suggest happened? Are the jurors supposed to guess when and what LL might’ve done? It’s very difficult and vague. Surely the prosecution should say something like: “we suggest at x o’clock she did so and so, then after 30 mins she did this and that. Then she..”
Is this going to be part of the trial?

I don’t get that either. Is what’s happening now all the evidence that both sides agree on and then once that’s all over will the prosecution start with what they think happened ? Is this why it’s going to be 6 months? Puzzled tbh.

 

[JosieJo]

Or genuinely doesn't recall it.

That is of course possible...but if so we have to believe she remembered details such as this

"In police interview, Letby said she could remember Child E and he was "stable" at the time of the handover, with nothing of concern "before the large bile aspirate".
She said she and another member of staff had disposed of the aspirate and the advice was to omit the feed.
She said Child E's abdomen was becoming fuller and there was a purple discolouration, so had asked a doctor to review Child E."

But does not recall a mum seeing her child screaming with some blood on their face

 

[BabaVanga]

“Dr Harkness says, from his recollection, he does not believe he left the unit as the bleed was 'something unusual' in Child E so he does not believe he went very far.
For the 11pm note, he says Letby called him into room 1, where 'Further GI blood loss and desaturation to 70%' is noted.
Dr Harkness said he would then have been preparing to intubate and get the equipment ready.
Prescriptions are made from 11.28pm-11.30pm for a number of drugs.”

im just wondering that if he was preparing the equipment and making those prescriptions he most likely would have been in unit 1? At that time Baby E would have been his sole focus As the bleed was unusual. Would the doctor have delegated the preperation of the equipment rather than do it himself?

Or he could possibly of thought he could’ve popped in and out room 1 where baby E would’ve been perfectly safe with LL

 

[JosieJo]

“Dr Harkness says, from his recollection, he does not believe he left the unit as the bleed was 'something unusual' in Child E so he does not believe he went very far.
For the 11pm note, he says Letby called him into room 1, where 'Further GI blood loss and desaturation to 70%' is noted.
Dr Harkness said he would then have been preparing to intubate and get the equipment ready.
Prescriptions are made from 11.28pm-11.30pm for a number of drugs.”

im just wondering that if he was preparing the equipment and making those prescriptions he most likely would have been in unit 1? At that time Baby E would have been his sole focus As the bleed was unusual. Would the doctor have delegated the preperation of the equipment rather than do it himself?

It's impossible to say ...many Dr's take to doing their prescriptions and notes away from the patient and go to the desk.

Preparing equipment could be done in the treatment room or in room 1

It's impossible to say either way if he was in room 1 himself.

Dr's very often leave the patients side to do all manner of things..phonecalls , get some equipment that's not in the room etc

 

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[JosieJo]

I don’t get that either. Is what’s happening now all the evidence that both sides agree on and then once that’s all over will the prosecution start with what they think happened ? Is this why it’s going to be 6 months? Puzzled tbh.

From what I gather from it the prosecution case is that the baby died from a combination of bleeding due to trauma and air embolus...I'm not sure they are saying exactly at what time they thought she injected air but are saying LL "attacked" caused the trauma just prior to the mum walking in

 

[Sweeper2000]

That is of course possible...but if so we have to believe she remembered details such as this

"In police interview, Letby said she could remember Child E and he was "stable" at the time of the handover, with nothing of concern "before the large bile aspirate".
She said she and another member of staff had disposed of the aspirate and the advice was to omit the feed.
She said Child E's abdomen was becoming fuller and there was a purple discolouration, so had asked a doctor to review Child E."

But does not recall a mum seeing her child screaming with some blood on their face

yes but the doctor doesn’t remember it either. His notes support LL account as they include a non dramatic presentation and his note says “crying” not “screaming”. They were also made around the ten pm mark and he himself says his notes suggest speaking to the mother.
“Dr Harkness says this was a 40-minute period of several year ago. He said this was potentially a period of 9.30-10.10pm.
He said it would 'match up' with the note.
In the police statement, Dr Harkness said he would have been 'bleeped' by Lucy Letby.
He says that would have been the most common approach to be alerted to the nursery room 1.
He said he had seen 'a dirty aspirate which may have contained blood flecks and bile'.
Mr Myers says the police statement said Child E had 'nothing dramatic' around the baby's face, and could not be sure if there were any blood flecks.
Child E was 'not in distress' and 'appeared fine'.
Dr Harkness says he does not know if he saw Child E's mother, and does not have a clear recollection. He says it could be the case, looking at the notes provided.”

UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

No she said she said to the mother the blood on the chin has come from the ng tube, she denies telling the mother to leave the ward while a dr was called. She also contests the mothers presence at 9pm. I think there is some confusion here. I think LL denies the 9pm interaction completely. So...

www.websleuths.com

 

[JosieJo]

yes but the doctor doesn’t remember it either. His notes support LL account as they include a non dramatic presentation and his note says “crying” not “screaming”. They were also made around the ten pm mark and he himself says his notes suggest speaking to the mother.
“Dr Harkness says this was a 40-minute period of several year ago. He said this was potentially a period of 9.30-10.10pm.
He said it would 'match up' with the note.
In the police statement, Dr Harkness said he would have been 'bleeped' by Lucy Letby.
He says that would have been the most common approach to be alerted to the nursery room 1.
He said he had seen 'a dirty aspirate which may have contained blood flecks and bile'.
Mr Myers says the police statement said Child E had 'nothing dramatic' around the baby's face, and could not be sure if there were any blood flecks.
Child E was 'not in distress' and 'appeared fine'.
Dr Harkness says he does not know if he saw Child E's mother, and does not have a clear recollection. He says it could be the case, looking at the notes provided.”

UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

No she said she said to the mother the blood on the chin has come from the ng tube, she denies telling the mother to leave the ward while a dr was called. She also contests the mothers presence at 9pm. I think there is some confusion here. I think LL denies the 9pm interaction completely. So...

www.websleuths.com

The Dr wouldn't remember as he wasn't there at 9pm

 

[Tortoise]

<rsbm> he himself says his notes suggest speaking to the mother.

Dr Harkness says he does not know if he saw Child E's mother, and does not have a clear recollection. He says it could be the case, looking at the notes provided.”

UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

No she said she said to the mother the blood on the chin has come from the ng tube, she denies telling the mother to leave the ward while a dr was called. She also contests the mothers presence at 9pm. I think there is some confusion here. I think LL denies the 9pm interaction completely. So...

www.websleuths.com

No he doesn't say his notes suggest meeting the mother, that's misquoting the testimony.

He says LL's notes suggest he spoke to the mother.

"The prosecution rise to ask about the timing of Dr Harkness 'meeting the mother of Child E'. Dr Harkness said that would have been the case, based on a nursing note. The prosecution ask if that was from looking at Letby's note. Dr Harkness agrees. The prosecution say Dr Harkness's clinical note does not refer to meeting the family."

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 17

 

[Tortoise]

Why isn’t the prosecution outlining what they suggest happened? Are the jurors supposed to guess when and what LL might’ve done? It’s very difficult and vague. Surely the prosecution should say something like: “we suggest at x o’clock she did so and so, then after 30 mins she did this and that. Then she..”
Is this going to be part of the trial?

The expert opinions should cover the timing of the air embolus and their opinion of the location of the trauma that caused the bleeding.

Prosecutors can't testify or talk to the jury about their theories during this portion of the trial. All they can do is ask the witnesses questions to draw out the evidence which supports their case. They can't ask these doctors and nurses when the air was injected because the medical staff weren't even aware of it. I think their testimony, which is much fuller than what we're hearing, should give an indication to the jury of whether they were attending to the baby constantly, or busy doing other things, before the collapse. Clearly the prosecution thinks she had opportunity to do what she's accused of doing.

Dr Harkness said he would then have been preparing to intubate and get the equipment ready.
Dr Harkness testifies prescriptions are made from 11.28pm-11.30pm for a number of drugs.
Dr Harkness’s note: 'sudden deterioration at 11.40pm'. Prior to that, Child E was still to be 'under close observation' by Lucy Letby.
Dr Harkness's notes record 'intubated as an emergency at 11.45pm'.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 17

The prosecution's closing speech is when they will walk the jury through their case in great detail, based on the evidence that's been presented by witnesses.

 

[Tortoise]

Problem is just because the Dr's were on the neonatal unit for a certain length of time does not mean they were in room 1 ..there will be main desk (nurses station) outside room 1 doors that's the main desk for the unit.

There's also an equipment room. I think I saw it on the video that's been released of the neonatal unit, as the camera pans around after leaving room 1.

This from the prosecution opening in relation to baby Q:

"The doctor sought to put her mind at rest and told her that Dr G was only asking to make sure that the normal procedures were carried out. She replied that after Child Q had collapsed she (LL) had walked into the equipment room and Dr G had been asking the other nurse who was present in the room (when Child Q had collapsed) and how quickly someone had gone to him because she (LL) had not been there."

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

 

[Sweeper2000]

I find it very difficult to believe that that doctor did not have baby E under very close if not direct observations. 1. He was on that unit exclusively to deal with baby E. 2. Baby E was obviously showing signs of needing treatment. 3. He was in the process of sorting equipment ready for treating baby E. 4. he had already said that baby E needed close observation. 5. He has said to the effect that he would not have been far from room 1 presumably he said this gauging his maximum potential distance from room 1 considering the circumstances, not that he remembers being away from it.
. 6. If he was writing those prescriptions at 11.28 presumably he would have been in room 1 before this as well. I’m also guessing that room 1 being a nicu, the equipment would already be in there At least mostly?

No he doesn't say his notes suggest meeting the mother, that's misquoting the testimony.

He says LL's notes suggest he spoke to the mother.

"The prosecution rise to ask about the timing of Dr Harkness 'meeting the mother of Child E'. Dr Harkness said that would have been the case, based on a nursing note. The prosecution ask if that was from looking at Letby's note. Dr Harkness agrees. The prosecution say Dr Harkness's clinical note does not refer to meeting the family."

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 17

I see your point I will correct it but I will also show you why it’s possible he means, the notes generally rather than that specific line about
“Dr Harkness says he does not know if he saw Child E's mother, and does not have a clear recollection. He says it could be the case, looking at the notes provided”

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 17

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

would you agree that the original quote involves him saying about the “notes“ rather than “note”?
Does that suggest the notes collectively give him the impression that he may of spoke to the mother rather than one note written by LL?
so presumably there is information presented in the notes that may or may not only be discussed with the mother present?

I can’t edit it apparently, hope it’s not breaking the rules.

it’s also worth mentioning that the doctors description of the child t ten isn’t in line with a child with a fatal injury supposedly inflicted an hour or so before IMO.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

I find it very difficult to believe that that doctor did not have baby E under very close if not direct observations. 1. He was on that unit exclusively to deal with baby E. 2. Baby E was obviously showing signs of needing treatment. 3. He was in the process of sorting equipment ready for treating baby E. 4. he had already said that baby E needed close observation. 5. He has said to the effect that he would not have been far from room 1 presumably he said this gauging his maximum potential distance from room 1 considering the circumstances, not that he remembers being away from it.
. 6. If he was writing those prescriptions at 10.28 presumably he would have been in room 1 before this as well. I’m also guessing that room 1 being a nicu, the equipment would already be in there At least mostly?



I see your point I will correct it but I will also show you why it’s possible he means, the notes generally rather than that specific line about
“Dr Harkness says he does not know if he saw Child E's mother, and does not have a clear recollection. He says it could be the case, looking at the notes provided”

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 17

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

would you agree that the original quote involves him saying about the “notes“ rather than “note”?
Does that suggest the notes collectively give him the impression that he may of spoke to the mother rather than one note written by LL?
so presumably there is information presented in the notes that may or may not only be discussed with the mother present?

I think he means that the mother may have been there if he considers the notes, not that he spoke to her. Thats just how I read it anyway

 

[Tortoise]

I see your point I will correct it but I will also show you why it’s possible he means, the notes generally rather than that specific line about
“Dr Harkness says he does not know if he saw Child E's mother, and does not have a clear recollection. He says it could be the case, looking at the notes provided”

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 17

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

would you agree that the original quote involves him saying about the “notes“ rather than “note”?
Does that suggest the notes collectively give him the impression that he may of spoke to the mother rather than one note written by LL?
so presumably there is information presented in the notes that may or may not only be discussed with the mother present?

No, notes can refer to more than one word written by one person.

"Dr Harkness is asked about Letby's nursing note made on the night shift of August 3, which refer to Child E's mum visiting at 10pm

He says he does not remember if the mum was present at that time

The prosecution say Dr Harkness's clinical note does not refer to meeting the family."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 17

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

I'm only as far as reading Dr. Harkness's testimony. He comes across and thorough and earnest. This answers some questions I have had. I believe/speculate that multiple things have happened here.

1. There was trauma inflicted on Baby E around the time that mum saw him. Based on the testimony, I would guess the damage was not in his upper throat as LL suggested to mum, but maybe lower in his esophagus.

2. From that trauma came the bleeding. I find it very believable and reasonable that Dr. H felt the first 14 mL blood loss would not have been an emergency, in and of itself. I also find it reasonable that he attempted to proceed in an urgent and rational but non-emergency manner in order to reduce the possibility of mistakes and be safer for Baby E.

3. If air was deliberately injected as alleged, it would have happened shortly before the purple discoloration. Slow injection would give the body time to clear the air (from capillary bed of lungs to alveoli) before it became a problem, rather than delaying a collapse. The air won't accumulate unless there is constant entry (such as described in the paper from 80s describing air entry from ventilator induced lung trauma). I think the most likely time would be between 11:30 and 11:40 when a lot of prescriptions were being written and meds were being given. If any meds were given IV push, air could been injected right into whatever venous access was being used. This could look like actually giving a medication, or flushing it in, or flushing the line to check for patency before connecting an infusion. All these are completely unremarkable actions during a situation like this. Less likely to me, would be air being put into one of the lines of fluids to slowly work it's way to the baby, unless it was accidental.

4. I await the expert testimony but I expect they will suggest that the combination of tissue trauma, large amounts of bleeding and an air embolism resulted in a lot of Tissue Factor being released, which would rapidly lead to massive clotting followed by massive bleeding (this is known as DIC) due to exhausted clotting factors. That could be what happened when poor little E was being resuscitated and a large amount of blood was coming out of his mouth. That is what I believe Dr. Harkness was referring to when he mentioned seeing "this amount of bleeding" in a teenager.

This is all just my opinion.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

As to what Dr. Harkness was doing, if he was preparing for intubation, he's focused on doing that - gathering the supplies, making sure they work, making sure the baby is going to be comfortably sedated - and trusting the nursing staff to do what is ordered as far as medications etc. Being in the room means he is aware of Baby E's vital signs but not that he is overseeing nursing tasks.

 

[crowmarsh]

Problem is just because the Dr's were on the neonatal unit for a certain length of time does not mean they were in room 1 ..there will be main desk (nurses station) outside room 1 doors that's the main desk for the unit.

but we dont know that they werent

 

[ColourPurple]

I find it very difficult to believe that that doctor did not have baby E under very close if not direct observations. 1. He was on that unit exclusively to deal with baby E. 2. Baby E was obviously showing signs of needing treatment. 3. He was in the process of sorting equipment ready for treating baby E. 4. he had already said that baby E needed close observation. 5. He has said to the effect that he would not have been far from room 1 presumably he said this gauging his maximum potential distance from room 1 considering the circumstances, not that he remembers being away from it.
. 6. If he was writing those prescriptions at 10.28 presumably he would have been in room 1 before this as well. I’m also guessing that room 1 being a nicu, the equipment would already be in there At least mostly?

But his notes say quite clearly that the person who was closely observing the baby before the collapse was LL!

"sudden deterioration at 11.40pm'. Prior to that, Child E was still to be 'under close observation' by Lucy Letby."

But for arguments sake let's say he and LL were both closely observing the baby prior to the collapse and its now believed that somebody injected air into the baby. It would suggest that one of the two people closely observing the baby injected the air. Either LL or the Dr.

But in reality, the Drs notes say that it was LL who was closely observing the baby...

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

It's interesting that the collapse and rash occurred around the time the Dr suggested an x ray followed by him talking to Alder Hay

This timing seems significant to me.