GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

[Kemug]

I don't think being pretty means you can find a boyfriend or get married, ugly people can get married, I'm testament to that!

But I've seen on here that she said she wouldn't get married and have children. She was only in her late 20s at that point.

It must have been her personality that put off potential boyfriends (and I don't mean with hindsight knowing what she did).

Or maybe she had finally realised that her favourite doctor was never going to marry her. And she would never find or want anyone else.

 

[Kemug]

I was listening to a podcast which I will link shortly. Pascale Jones who was the CPS charging officer in the case simply said she thought one of the reasons was simply “ boredom “
Staggering really.

Added link here.

How did Lucy Letby slip under the radar for so long? — From The North — Overcast

overcast.fm

Yes, I agree that boredom may well have been a factor. I keep remembering her constant texting while looking after stable babies - she didn't have the slightest interest in those dear little babies who were their parents' whole world.

 

[LadyL]

‘Unrequited affection’ is not the term I’d use after hearing some of the messages he sent her, nor after learning of their little meet ups, trip to London etc…

In the beginning I thought we’d see LL being more into him than he was her however knowing what we do now, the last words I’d use to describe this ‘relationship’ would be ‘unrequited affection from LL’ but that is JMO call a spade a spade it was an affair whether emotional, physical or both IMO

Where did you hear messages?

 

[Charlot123]

I don't think being pretty means you can find a boyfriend or get married, ugly people can get married, I'm testament to that!

But I've seen on here that she said she wouldn't get married and have children. She was only in her late 20s at that point.

It must have been her personality that put off potential boyfriends (and I don't mean with hindsight knowing what she did).

Love the spirit, @d0lphin! I think that beauty is by far not the most important thing in being loved or getting married. Smarts and the willpower are probably the most important things. But I also don’t think that Lucy meant she’d never marry of have kids. I think that phrase was the reflection of her fears. What she was afraid of was exactly what happened afterwards - arrest, trial, and now, indeed, she won’t get married or have kids.

 

[Kemug]

Plus, may I say as a woman that some of the most attractive men I've ever known have been what other people might call "plain".

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Where did you hear messages?

Sorry I meant hearing of the messages. They were reported during the trial so the proper word would be read.

The messages came out during the trial, things such as ‘oh Lucy you poor thing’ ‘please stop doubting yourself, it is not you, it is the babies’ ‘you are of the only nurses I would trust with my own children’ there were more asking if she wanted to borrow his car, him giving her a lift home, he brought her chocolate, him concerned about her after she pricked her finger during the resus of baby P. Him sharing information about meetings with other senior members of staff, there were heart emojis and other nauseus ‘sweetie’ names.

They met up on numberous occasions and took a trip to London together. This was an affair whether emotional or physical. Of course if he is trying to save his marriage he will describe it was ‘unrequited affection’ and perhaps it was at the end. Before LL’s arrest perhaps it had dawned on him that he had been used and deceived by a baby killer. Maybe he distanced himself then, ghosted her. Prompting her cries of ‘I loved you’ and writing his name next to hearts on post it notes.
From this article

She also wrote: "My best friend...LOVE...I loved you and I think you knew that...I wanted you to stand by me but you didn't."

Letby also searched for the doctor's spouse multiple times on Facebook.

Lucy Letby 'attacked at least four babies' in desperate bid to bond with doctor

Lucy Letby deliberately manufactured "crisis situations" at work to get closer to a married doctor - all while she murdered babies.

www.express.co.uk

 

[cottonweaver]

I’ve always thought there was something so utterly bizarre about this case, which I could never seem to quite pin down why. There is something that really, really stinks about the whole thing.

Not only is there a despicable creature to walk the earth doing such cruel disturbing acts to another life;
but IMO there is only one reason a hospital would keep turning a blind eye so furiously, trying to block access, block the parents, block the police access, silencing these doctors- like blackmail to keep quiet (painting LL as a victim, her parents getting quite strangely involved- reading HER written statement out to the mediation meeting on her behalf):

The hospital has something to hide.
The ugly truth is emerging with time. Pandora’s box has nothing on this scandal.

JMO

re Sir Bernard Nicholl - I did double-check the Times' claim and they are right, it's the same man Duncan Kirkbride Nichol - Wikipedia

Plus I'd seen that he'd been in the press last week, complaining:
'Nichol, who announced his retirement from the trust in November 2019, said in a statement to the BBC: “I believe that the board was misled in December 2016 when it received a report on the outcome of the external, independent case reviews.

“We were told explicitly that there was no criminal activity pointing to any one individual, when in truth the investigating neonatologist had stated that she had not had the time to complete the necessary in-depth case reviews.”

Lucy Letby NHS trust chair says hospital bosses misled the board

Sir Duncan Nichol says board was told there was ‘no criminal activity pointing to any one individual’ after reviews in late 2016

www.theguardian.com

Circular firing squad - everything is somebody else's fault. And, regardless of seniority and pay grade, few at a high level show the kind of rigour or initiative you'd expect.

Nichol was in his 50's when the Allitt case exploded and he could have laid his hands on the Allitt Inquiry report at any point in 2015/16 and re-read their specific warnings. He might still have his original copy that he was given in 1994. Ditto the Harold Shipman Inquiry 2002, c 218 murders)
Presumably he'd also have read, in summer 2015, the front page news about the Stepping Hill nurse poisoner's life sentence. (Nichol is a 'local boy', his previous post was at Christies. All these hospitals are close to each other)
The wiki entry also says that Bernard Nichol was also once the Chairman of the ...................Parole Board and the Courts Service.
Revolving doors of absolute - - - - - - - -( deleted )

 

[SirDigbyChickenCaesar]

Love the spirit, @d0lphin! I think that beauty is by far not the most important thing in being loved or getting married. Smarts and the willpower are probably the most important things. But I also don’t think that Lucy meant she’d never marry of have kids. I think that phrase was the reflection of her fears. What she was afraid of was exactly what happened afterwards - arrest, trial, and now, indeed, she won’t get married or have kids.

I've started to wonder if LL is gay or asexual. By now I would have expected some sort of kiss and tell story from her past in the gutter press but there just doesn't seem to be anybody but "friends" in her life. There's only so long a married man would have a purely emotional affair before a lack of sex would lead to the relationship fizzling out JMO.

 

[Powermjp]

I've started to wonder if LL is gay or asexual. By now I would have expected some sort of kiss and tell story from her past in the gutter press but there just doesn't seem to be anybody but "friends" in her life. There's only so long a married man would have a purely emotional affair before a lack of sex would lead to the relationship fizzling out JMO.

Interesting idea actually, it's possible. Would explain the never have children and get married line. Maybe very repressed with it, didn't want to tell her parents.

Nickname was the "innocent one" by her friends. Seemed to not want to admit the commando thing. I assume with her friends when sex came up she was very innocent about it like the commando thing. And looking at the texts with he doc, it seems to me it was never sexual or really flirty, part of me thinks they never did have a physical relationship.

Completely guessing here, pure speculation by the way. Just thinking a few ideas that make your point possible.

 

[Tortoise]

A 'social timeline' is shown to the court, detailing meetings with the doctor in Harford, Cheshire Oaks (twice) and London between May-June 2017.
LL: I'm near the park next to where you are, let me know where you are finishing up and I'll see you outside
Doctor: Ok will do See you soon
LL:

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 9 - cross-examination continues


Her note -
"Tell everyone I'm better off on my own [b/c?] no expectations then you don't get hurt just misled" :



Lucy Letby: The handwritten messages found in her bedroom



Mr Johnson says Letby interrupted when the mother of Child E and F gave evidence, to say she couldn't hear, and wanted to leave the courtroom when a doctor colleague began to give evidence.
LL: "Yes, because I felt unwell."
Mr Johnson says: "No, no..." adding that it was because it was her boyfriend who was giving evidence.
Letby: "That's not fair."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 7 - cross-examination continues


A nurse accused of murdering seven babies and attempting to kill a further ten broke down in tears today as a paediatric consultant gave evidence.

Lucy Letby, 33, was visibly upset and even appeared to try to leave the courtroom as she stood in the dock and walked swiftly to the door leading to the cells.

A female security officer approached her for a hushed conversation.

Letby took a few moments to compose herself before returning to the seat she has occupied throughout her 16-week trial at Manchester Crown Court.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11760187/Neonatal-nurse-Lucy-Letby-33-breaks-paediatric-consultant-gives-evidence-murder-trial.html




2nd June 2016 - the night shift of baby N's attempted murder. Dr A (Choc) was not on duty this shift.

Messages with a colleague friend at about 8.30pm -

LL: Oh and had weird FB message from [doctor A] earlier
coll: 'Did u? Saying what?' 'Go commando? (cry laughing emoji)
LL: (4 x cry laughing emojis) Asking when I was working next week as wants to talk to me about something, has a favour to ask.?'
coll: 'Think he likes you too. Hmm did u not ask what it was?'
LL: 'No just said when I was working and he said wants my opinion on something'
LL: Hmm... (puzzled emoji) Do you think he's being odd?
coll: 'Thought as flirty as u'
LL: 'Shut up!'
coll: 'What?!'
LL: 'I don't flirt with him!'
coll: 'Ok'
LL: 'Certainly don't fancy him haha just nice guy'
coll: 'Ok'


This was some weeks after the attempted murders of L and M on 9th April.

It seems apparent that her friend had noticed flirting between LL and Dr Choc before this exchange of messages.

From all of the above, I do think she has a lot of shame around being seen to want a man/relationship.

Perhaps this issue built up in her head over that shift, about having to hide herself, feeling seen by others, feeling resentful and then a familiar rage built, festered, and triggered the attempted murder of baby N.

MOO

 

[ScotAng]

I feel it's becoming 'on trend' to support the accused/convicted these days.

There has been obvious, and some not so obvious, trolling going on for years now. (On all SM platforms). When a FB group was set up for the sole purpose of dragging the victim & her family in the Watts case, it was a good insight to just how many dark minded people are around us.
I was shocked to see some I thought intelligent & fair minded people I'd interacted with in previous years, jump right into it & drag Shanann Watts for no other reason than they could & to be part of this big new 'gang'.

Unless anyone is willing to state reasons why they think LL didn't do this and evdence they believe backs that up, I wouldn't give them house room.

Jmo

 

[cottonweaver]

On the issue of whether the Dr A relationship was ever ' consummated' or was what we'd expect from a typical extra marital affair I think that Hummingbird must, as a matter of course, have gathered detailed evidence on LL's London trip* in summer 2017 . ( Which hotel, dates, number of rooms booked etc. Am speculating one room, one night. I've no idea if, generic illicit couples' idea of a ' good time' is outlet shopping vs booking a Travelodge located at a retail park . But if it were, it might be indicative of the nature of the relationship. Just hypothetically speaking etc )

Although there was no need to present that* at the trial, I wonder if more of their communications & texts will form part of the Inquiry, (or at least the ones which haven't been deleted. Isn't he on record somewhere vouching for her during the phase of doubt? Ditto records where she's artfully pumping him for info to see what the 'Gang of Four' are saying about her? Pros didn't need to present that to trial, he wasn't the Defendant, but it might be material to Inquiry's investigations. )

On the shame front, considering her background ( and possibly her faith - if she was still a practising Pentecostal ) I also imagine she wouldn't want to admit even flirtation with a man who was married with children.

Secondly, on the HR policy front maybe she also couldn't admit it? Countess must have had policy rules on fraternisation, like most organisations/professions. Hopefully somebody who's NHS will chip-in and tell us whether there was a risk that Dr A & LL would have to notify, if they embarked on an actual affair. ( I am not suggesting they were involved in a physical, long-running affair, just interested as to what the incentives were for hush-hush between LL and her close female pals. Places I've worked, couples would be happy to be split across sites or departments or line management so that no accusations of conflict of interest, favouritism etc. I've never worked in anything NHS -related so IDK. eg You shoudn'y do a performance review on somebody or line manage them if you're......)

Third, her criminal needs & her fig-leaf/shield for professionalism wouldn't allow her to admit that a flirtation/dalliance with a senior doc - registrar Dr A - provided extra benefits in terms of protection, shield and info source.

Dr A probably meets all kinds of needs for her ( attention, self-esteem, reassurance that she's a normal young woman who's 'fanciable' etc) but imo her primary driver is to kill and for that she needs not to be detected


When another medic raised concerns after a baby fell ill, Letby sought reassurance from Dr A. He messaged her saying: "No more doubt, it is not you, it is the babies." He added: "You are one of a few nurses in the region (I've worked pretty much everywhere) that I would trust with my own children."

Texts and dates between Lucy Letby and married doctor 'crush'

During the harrowing trial, it was alleged Letby carried out some of the sickening attacks to get the attention of a doctor, known as Doctor A, on the neonatal unit.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

 

[Cuko]

DBM

 

[Cuko]

DBM

 

[Cuko]

Does anyone know if a forensic graphologist analysed LL’s handwritten notes?

 

[Sundial]

On the issue of whether the Dr A relationship was ever ' consummated' or was what we'd expect from a typical extra marital affair I think that Hummingbird must, as a matter of course, have gathered detailed evidence on LL's London trip* in summer 2017 . ( Which hotel, dates, number of rooms booked etc. Am speculating one room, one night. I've no idea if, generic illicit couples' idea of a ' good time' is outlet shopping vs booking a Travelodge located at a retail park . )

Although there was no need to present that* at the trial, I wonder if more of their communications & texts will form part of the Inquiry, (or at least the ones which haven't been deleted. Isn't he on record somewhere vouching for her during the phase of doubt? Ditto records where she's artfully pumping him for info to see what the 'Gang of Four' are saying about her? Pros didn't need to present that to trial, he wasn't the Defendant, but it might be material to Inquiry's investigations. )

On the shame front, considering her background ( and possibly her faith - if she was still a practising Pentecostal ) I also imagine she wouldn't want to admit even flirtation with a man who was married with children.

Secondly, on the HR policy front maybe she also couldn't admit it? Countess must have had policy rules on fraternisation, like most organisations/professions. Hopefully somebody who's NHS will chip-in and tell us whether there was a risk that Dr A & LL would have to notify, if they embarked on an actual affair. ( I am not suggesting they were involved in a physical affair, just interested as to what the incentives were for hush-hush between LL and her close female pals. Places I've worked, couples would be happy to be split across sites or departments or line management so that no accusations of conflict of interest, favouritism etc. I've never worked in anything NHS -related so IDK. eg You shoudn'y do a performance review on somebody or line manage them if you're......)

Third, her criminal needs & her fig-leaf/shield for professionalism wouldn't allow her to admit that a flirtation/dalliance with a senior doc - registrar Dr A - provided extra benefits in terms of protection, shield and info source.

Dr A probably meets all kinds of needs for her ( attention, self-esteem, reassurance that she's a normal young woman who's 'fanciable' etc) but imo her primary driver is to kill and for that she needs not to be detected


When another medic raised concerns after a baby fell ill, Letby sought reassurance from Dr A. He messaged her saying: "No more doubt, it is not you, it is the babies." He added: "You are one of a few nurses in the region (I've worked pretty much everywhere) that I would trust with my own children."

Texts and dates between Lucy Letby and married doctor 'crush'

During the harrowing trial, it was alleged Letby carried out some of the sickening attacks to get the attention of a doctor, known as Doctor A, on the neonatal unit.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

I wonder if it was she who possibly booked a hotel room and he swiftly made his excuses and trotted off home to his wife.

In evidence she stated they were in London (I think it was) but he had to leave for a medical app. Or something along those lines..to me IMO for a ‘couple’ sending love heart emojis swooning behind trees etc, he was either genuinely poorly and it couldn’t be avoided, OR an event (or he got twitchy feet/his wife called or whatever) and he jumped ship. It’s strange that a doctor would forget (or just happen) to have a medical appointment that same day.

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder if it was she who possibly booked a hotel room and he swiftly made his excuses and trotted off home to his wife.

In evidence she stated they were in London (I think it was) but he had to leave for a medical app. Or something along those lines..to me IMO for a ‘couple’ sending love heart emojis swooning behind trees etc, he was either genuinely poorly and it couldn’t be avoided, OR an event (or he got twitchy feet/his wife called or whatever) and he jumped ship. It’s strange that a doctor would forget (or just happen) to have a medical appointment that same day.

No, that was the second date they had planned to go to London again a few months later that he cancelled.

 

[cottonweaver]

No, that was the second date they had planned to go to London again a few months later that he cancelled.

thanks, do you know what date that was for? ( the cancelled one)

you said May-June for trip one, so 2nd cancelled trip around Sept? 2015? ( Am just wondering where the suspicion campaign was at around Sept re him potentially getting cold feet. Am losing track of dates now)

 

[BritsKate]

Yes, I agree that boredom may well have been a factor. I keep remembering her constant texting while looking after stable babies - she didn't have the slightest interest in those dear little babies who were their parents' whole world.

I haven't followed this case closely but your comment jumped out at me because I've long believed Letby has borderline personality disorder - and acting out impulsively to create excitement would fit that theory. JMO

Feelings of emptiness and boredom are common with BPD. In addition to feeling “empty inside,” you may feel numb, alienated, lonely, hopeless, or disconnected from others.

Some people with BPD attempt to fill this void by finding other people to “rescue” or want to take care of them. Others may act out impulsively in an attempt to feel more present in the moment or experience more excitement.

Borderline Personality Disorder: Signs and Symptoms

The symptoms of borderline personality disorder include a pattern of unstable relationships, feelings of emptiness, rapid mood shifts, and more.

www.health.com

 

[mrjitty]

The term "flying monkey" comes to mind. Narcissists can be charming to people they can use and who are useful to them. There's a reason that people are willing to side with narcissists, even helping to target their victims, while ignoring the narcissist's actions / behaviour towards others. The realisation only comes when the mask slips and the flying monkey finds themselves on the wrong side of the narcissist, at which point they will look back at all the things the narcissist did and recognise them as "red flags".

I think people underestimate the power of this aspect