UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #35

[Dotta]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1833491317604671569

 

[Sweeper2000]

To be specific, it was made in relation to, and showed, only the ones she was charged with. You wouldn't do it any other way because none of the others are relevant. As it happens, she was actually present for some of the others but they aren't relevant.

I totally follow, I was kind of saying the way the info was presented was to build an association between Lucy and deaths on the unit and not saying "there were other deaths on the unit and it was found that she had nothing to do with them". You see what I mean? It's actually not so clear cut from either angle meaning I'm not sure that to say the prosecution did exaggerate her association with deaths is correct, I still focus on whether or not it was relayed in court that other deaths did happen and she was there but nothing suspicious about them.

 

[Rohmer]

The thing about the other deaths/collapses is that, regardless of how much her delusional supporters plead, they simply aren't relevant. They aren't suspicious so they don't have any relevance to the prosecution. The example that Tortoise gave of the ambulance driver smothering his patients having no relevance to the ones who died of natural heart failure is perfectly apt. The heart deaths simply aren't relevant and have no bearing on the guilt of the driver.

The other deaths on the ward in LL's case weren't relevant because they weren't criminal. Once again, it's people putting too much stock in the whole ...the death rate went up... malarkey. This investigation was not sparked because some pencil pusher in an office was collating figures one day, peered over their horn rimmed glasses and had a Eureka moment. It was set in motion, after much push-back, because several doctors and other professionals started noticing worrying coincidences involving the presence of LL when these things went down. It was she who brought the attention, not any sort of statistics. Her fans need to realise that!

We know that the other cases were down to identified causes - congenital issues in something like four of them, for instance - causes which don't open them up to suspicion of criminality.

Another issue I can see is this hypothetical scenario; what if in one or two of these cases the police did actually have suspicions as to whether she had harmed them, perhaps very strong suspicions (not suggesting they ever did), but the CPS wouldn't authorise charges because the evidence didn't clear the bar? If you started going down that rabbit hole then it's anyone's guess where you'd end up. You can hardly have the prosecuting KC present these things in court - it would surely be violating all manner of procedures and rules? Not least the fact that it would end up obliterating any future prosecution should sufficient evidence come to light due to it already having been prejudiced.

This comment is a good example of how easily people can be mislead by statistics, even extremely intelligent people such as appeal judges STILL falling for invalid statistical inferences despite being warned by experts about how prone we are as untrained human beings to fall for them. Your whole comment, this entire case rests on a statistical inference that might not be valid: namely that there was necessarily anything improbable or ‘striking’ about this spike in deaths. After all, similar spikes have occurred in other hospitals, at other times.

The question then becomes, is the circumstantial evidence strong enough to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

<modsnip>

 

[joltz]

[...]

While one such chart listed 25 collapses and fatalities in which Letby was present, the jury was not told about a further nine deaths over that period with which she was not charged, which were not included in the table, according to The Daily Mail.

A source said: “Four of the deaths were babies born with a congenital problem or birth defect, another baby was sadly asphyxiated or deprived of oxygen at birth, the remaining four died of infection and their deaths were precipitated with a period of time consistent with infection – they did not suddenly and unexpectedly collapse and die.”

[...]

A public inquiry examining events at the Countess of Chester Hospital following Letby’s multiple convictions is due to begin on 10 September in Liverpool.

What are the fresh questions surrounding the Lucy Letby case?

The strange thing about this, is that the unit had 2 and 3 deaths in 2013 and 2014 (or was it 3 and 4?) So even without Letby, there was a huge increase on the years previous, it seems. 9 deaths..

 

[ColourPurple]

Just posting the link to the Thirlwall Inquiry thread in case anyone’s not aware of it

UK - Lucy Letby - Post-Conviction Statutory Inquiry

Thirlwall Inquiry: terms of reference Guidance Thirlwall Inquiry: terms of reference Published 19 October 2023 Introduction On 21 August 2023, after a trial at Manchester Crown Court, Lucy Letby was sentenced to life imprisonment and a whole life order on each of 7 counts of murder and 7...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Parker Knoll]

Lucy Letby: doctor criticises judge’s opening remarks at inquiry

Dr Michael Hall writes to inquiry saying he does not believe nurse received fair trial

www.theguardian.com

And so it continues ….

 

[MoominMama222]

I can guarantee that if Lucy Letby was a man, nobody would be saying he was innocent. Especially if he was ugly.

These people would probably think Annie Wilkes was innocent.

I disagree with this. I think there's a history of people demonizing attractive women because of misogyny. I think of Amanda Knox who was universally condemned, assumed guilty and found guilty, but it turns out was not.

 

[Officer Dibble]

On BBC Sounds on Jeremy Vine show on 11th September discussed LL and spoke to 'experts'
About an hour or so into the programme Jeremy Vine - US presidential debate and David Gilmour - BBC Sounds

 

[Sweeper2000]

Dr Hall although very accomplished within his field most likely does not have the same understanding of the courtroom as Mr Myers KC and it is probably that as a fact that the appeal board made a decision on. He can't complain about the KC'S decisions.

 

[katydid23]

The photo in here of the fanaticals is worth a look. Lucy Letby supporter attacks medical witness who helped convict killer

Lucy Letby supporter attacks medical witness who helped convict killer

Neonatal nurse Lucy Letby, 34, is serving 15 whole-life sentences after she was convicted of murdering seven newborn babies and trying to kill six others at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Protesters and experts have sought to undermine the prosecution case in Letby's trials, arguing that the evidence was not safe

 

[Parker Knoll]

When a picture paints a thousand words as they say.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Not a thousand words more like five, "she doesn't look very murdery".

 

[Becky53]

A Tory former minister probing the case of killer nurse Lucy Letby has complained after he was quoted £100,000 to obtain a transcript of her trial.

Sir David Davis said he was given the figure after contacting Manchester Crown Court to get a copy of the transcript from the trial in 2022 and 2023.

He said it was eventually reduced to £9,000 but insisted such documents should be freely available to parliamentarians.

Commons Speaker Sir Lindsay Hoyle described the £100,000 quote as an “outrageous amount” and warned against MPs being prohibited from carrying out their duties.


Hope this £9k doesn’t go down on his expenses. Plus I’m sure there are more pressing matters in his constituency like the farcical roadworks on the Ouse Bridge (M62) that have been ongoing for an eternity.

MP says he was quoted £100,000 for Lucy Letby court transcript

A Tory former minister probing the case of killer nurse Lucy Letby has complained after he was quoted £100,000 to obtain a transcript of her trial.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

With the revelation today that the dislodgement of breathing tubes occurred on 40% of Letby's shifts at Liverpool Women's, (link to BBC live updates Lucy Letby hospital inquiry: Anyone questioning Lucy Letby’s guilt ‘should be ashamed’, lawyer tells inquiry) and the unanswered question of when she first began harming babies, with prior years uninvestigated at the time of her trial, I have to say I have always felt that elements of her defence case had the potential to seriously mislead the jury of her first trial, and lead them to give her more of the benefit of the doubt than she may have been legitimately entitled to, in those cases which the jury wasn't able to resolve. I was surprised that the defence weren't reined in in this regard by the judge, with orders in place to not make any statements on her earlier career.

Statements from Mr Myers such as -

a nurse who "decided to kill children" or "tried to kill them" for reasons "which make no sense" and "out of the blue".

He says who Letby is, and was, is at the "heart of this case". He says she had "never been in trouble before".

He refers to the "commitment" Letby did in training to care for "hundreds and hundreds" of babies.
He says it is "important of the type of person she is".
He says it makes the allegations "all the more unlikely", and medical professionals had spoken "highly" of Letby.

Mr Myers refers to Facebook searches.
He says the searches by Letby also demonstrate an interest for parents of babies not on the indictment.
Mr Myers says that is "important", and Letby is seen as somebody who looks up names regularly.
He says of Letby's 2,318 Facebook searches, "only 31" related to parents' names on the indictment.

Mr Myers refers to handover sheets.
Mr Myers asks if the jury don't think this accumulation is "random", what is the prosecution's case for them? He says if Letby had handover sheets and only handover sheets relating to babies on the indictment, that would be significant, but a total of 257 handover were found, with 21 relating to babies on the indictment - "less than 10 per cent".
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 26 - defence closing speech


Remember she said this to the jury of her second trial -

"At one point, she told him [Nick Johnson KC] : 'I carry a lot of babies around in my head.'"

Lucy Letby made chilling admission just days before guilty verdict

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

With the revelation today that the dislodgement of breathing tubes occurred on 40% of Letby's shifts at Liverpool Women's, (link to BBC live updates Lucy Letby hospital inquiry: Anyone questioning Lucy Letby’s guilt ‘should be ashamed’, lawyer tells inquiry) and the unanswered question of when she first began harming babies, with prior years uninvestigated at the time of her trial, I have to say I have always felt that elements of her defence case had the potential to seriously mislead the jury of her first trial, and lead them to give her more of the benefit of the doubt than she may have been legitimately entitled to, in those cases which the jury wasn't able to resolve. I was surprised that the defence weren't reined in in this regard by the judge, with orders in place to not make any statements on her earlier career.

Statements from Mr Myers such as -

a nurse who "decided to kill children" or "tried to kill them" for reasons "which make no sense" and "out of the blue".

He says who Letby is, and was, is at the "heart of this case". He says she had "never been in trouble before".

He refers to the "commitment" Letby did in training to care for "hundreds and hundreds" of babies.
He says it is "important of the type of person she is".
He says it makes the allegations "all the more unlikely", and medical professionals had spoken "highly" of Letby.

Mr Myers refers to Facebook searches.
He says the searches by Letby also demonstrate an interest for parents of babies not on the indictment.
Mr Myers says that is "important", and Letby is seen as somebody who looks up names regularly.
He says of Letby's 2,318 Facebook searches, "only 31" related to parents' names on the indictment.

Mr Myers refers to handover sheets.
Mr Myers asks if the jury don't think this accumulation is "random", what is the prosecution's case for them? He says if Letby had handover sheets and only handover sheets relating to babies on the indictment, that would be significant, but a total of 257 handover were found, with 21 relating to babies on the indictment - "less than 10 per cent".
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 26 - defence closing speech


Remember she said this to the jury of her second trial -

"At one point, she told him [Nick Johnson KC] : 'I carry a lot of babies around in my head.'"

Lucy Letby made chilling admission just days before guilty verdict

MOO

Yeah, I've never forgotten that the oldest handover sheet she'd stolen was from her first shift as a student nurse and was preserved like a trophy. I think the rot was in no way sudden. It goes all the way back to the beginning of her career.

MOO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Anyone know anything about FOA requests? I'm just wondering if we could put a request in to the coch or relevant body and get all the info about those two years 15/16. I know we know the totals but if we get more info on collapses and deaths such as dates we might be able to determine a pattern. Presumably ok to do now after the trial.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Lucy Letby: doctor criticises judge’s opening remarks at inquiry

Dr Michael Hall writes to inquiry saying he does not believe nurse received fair trial

www.theguardian.com

And so it continues ….

In his defence, at least he has the credibility of having sat through almost all of the trial and has read the evidence of the few days he wasn't there. Unlike the vast, vast majority of the other critics.

I still think he's wrong, though.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

The CPS were always in such a difficult position with the prosecution of this case in order to get it right to secure convictions.
They had to have a timescale … it couldn’t obviously be open ended but I am in no doubt that there were other instances ( not deaths ) where the evidence just didn’t make the bar so it wasn’t included in the case, the last thing anyone wanted was the case to collapse and she walked, that’s where the statistics of other deaths on the unit as you rightly point out become totally irrelevant to the case.
Letby must be having a good old laugh in her prison cell with all this.
Jmo.

The angry face reply wasn't to you, it was for LL laughing, it gets my back up.

 

[katydid23]

If you want to find out Letby's real reasons for writing those notes take a listen to CS2C's recent video on it. He's pulled up the court transcripts regarding what she said in her police interviews when questioned precisely about that. The Guardian's unnamed source is contradicting Letby herself.

THAT^^^ was amazing. I wish I could convince some of the gullible people who are being persuaded by these false narratives to sit and listen to this enlightening video!

 

[katydid23]

I don't understand why the defence wouldn't bring in this report as evidence, including the neonatologist as a witness. It is baffling to me. I don't really know what to think, given there is no detail really on the findings of the report, and whether she was asked to consider deliberate sabotaging as a cause. If she identified natural ways which could have caused these babies' deaths, then why wasn't this heard in trial as well as the other neonatologist report?

I for one thought and still think the evidence proving her guilt is overwhelming. But part of that is that the case was so one sided. Almost 10 months of evidence saying she was guilty. And one plumber for the defence. Myers brought up many of these things (hospital failings) as a defence, but was unable to find any expert to back up what he was saying. If he had had experts and reports to back this up, maybe there would have been more doubt. I don't get why he wouldn't include this in the defence. He must have known about the report. It's so weird. I hope that some of these questions will be answered in this review that's about to take place.

The problem Myers had is that the things he brought up, like the toxic plumbing and short staffing problems did not account for the sudden collapses of the babies.

The toxic plumbing issues could have created deadly infections but none of the autopsies nor blood tests of the survivors showed any kind of infection in the victims.

And the short staffing did mean some babies may have waited longer for feedings or diaper changes or prescriptions, but again, none of that is lethal. The sudden unexplained collapses could not be attributed to the 'suboptimal care' described by the defence. Even Lucy, who kept saying COC often gave suboptimal care, could not come up with any specific real life examples of how that seriously affected any of the patients.

There were clear and detailed medical logs for each of the babies, showing the care they each received, around the clock by their designated nurses and doctors.

It is hard to find experts to back up the accusations if the medical reports do not show infections from dirty water or from unchanged diapers or negligence. IMO