UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #35

[katydid23]

I don't understand why the defence wouldn't bring in this report as evidence, including the neonatologist as a witness. It is baffling to me. I don't really know what to think, given there is no detail really on the findings of the report, and whether she was asked to consider deliberate sabotaging as a cause. If she identified natural ways which could have caused these babies' deaths, then why wasn't this heard in trial as well as the other neonatologist report?

I for one thought and still think the evidence proving her guilt is overwhelming. But part of that is that the case was so one sided. Almost 10 months of evidence saying she was guilty. And one plumber for the defence. Myers brought up many of these things (hospital failings) as a defence, but was unable to find any expert to back up what he was saying. If he had had experts and reports to back this up, maybe there would have been more doubt. I don't get why he wouldn't include this in the defence. He must have known about the report. It's so weird. I hope that some of these questions will be answered in this review that's about to take place.

The problem Myers had is that the things he brought up, like the toxic plumbing and short staffing problems did not account for the sudden collapses of the babies.

The toxic plumbing issues could have created deadly infections but none of the autopsies nor blood tests of the survivors showed any kind of infection in the victims.

And the short staffing did mean some babies may have waited longer for feedings or diaper changes or prescriptions, but again, none of that is lethal. The sudden unexplained collapses could not be attributed to the 'suboptimal care' described by the defence. Even Lucy, who kept saying COC often gave suboptimal care, could not come up with any specific real life examples of how that seriously affected any of the patients.

There were clear and detailed medical logs for each of the babies, showing the care they each received, around the clock by their designated nurses and doctors.

It is hard to find experts to back up the accusations if the medical reports do not show infections from dirty water or from unchanged diapers or negligence. IMO

 

[katydid23]

The strange thing about this, is that the unit had 2 and 3 deaths in 2013 and 2014 (or was it 3 and 4?) So even without Letby, there was a huge increase on the years previous, it seems. 9 deaths..

I think there's a possibility that she was involved with a few more deaths but they didn't have a clear enough connection to show guilt---and if they had some that didn't seem connected, the jury might disallow all of them.

In the ones that came to trial, there were suspicious circumstances, like her changing or distorting her medical logs, changing or distorting her witness testimony, in conflict with other witnesses, and evidence of her being in care of the victims during the time preceding their collapse.

If there were a few cases where they didn't have those circumstances, OR there were other obvious potential causes of death, they might have decided not to charge her in those?

 

[Sweeper2000]

I think there's a possibility that she was involved with a few more deaths but they didn't have a clear enough connection to show guilt---and if they had some that didn't seem connected, the jury might disallow all of them.

In the ones that came to trial, there were suspicious circumstances, like her changing or distorting her medical logs, changing or distorting her witness testimony, in conflict with other witnesses, and evidence of her being in care of the victims during the time preceding their collapse.

If there were a few cases where they didn't have those circumstances, OR there were other obvious potential causes of death, they might have decided not to charge her in those?

Makes sense really, if I some of those other cases there is little evidence it may be a bad reflection on the charges as a whole. Choose from the strongest cases, get those and then maybe at a later date make a case about the other ones.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Any NNU nurses on here with experience on those endotracheal tubes? @marynnu @magicarp anyone else? 40% sounds like allot.

 

[marynnu]

Any NNU nurses on here with experience on those endotracheal tubes? @marynnu @magicarp anyone else? 40% sounds like allot.

It does sound a lot. And 1% sounds very few! Either way it's quite a difference. I don't suppose whoever checked the notes expected this. The problem is, this isn't something you normally keep a record of in my experience, so it's very hard to judge what is normal.

 

[Sweeper2000]

It does sound a lot. And 1% sounds very few! Either way it's quite a difference. I don't suppose whoever checked the notes expected this. The problem is, this isn't something you normally keep a record of in my experience, so it's very hard to judge what is normal.

I didn't think it would be logged and collated. I couldn't say for sure but I don't think logically it's relevant to the medical aspect of things is it? As in the dislodgement itself. If that's the case the only reason one may keep a log of it is to use it as a way of checking for killers and harmers and the likelihood of that makes it meaningless as a measure in constant practice.

However that tube is probably critical to the health of the baby in care presumably so a potential lesson here is that HCK's target the essentials and any gross disparity in numbers to "normal levels" should be noted.

 

[Tortoise]

If you wish to take a listen to my latest episode.

Really interesting to see (hear) her manipulation techniques at play. Saying a lot of nonsense, with confidence that she is believable. She is very experienced at bald-faced lying and contradicting herself - manipulating by obfuscating, repeatedly.

She says "because at that point they didn't know, hadn't a clue what had happened". In my opinion, she is revealing it is now known, and also that she knows no one saw what she did.

There are some really interesting insights also, into how she admits many times she can't cope when she can't control the situation. This is the key to her actions, IMO. Not having control of others. Needing to control others.

I am still struck by one of her first lines in the note. "I can't breathe". She took the breath, literally, of these babies. I think when she was not able to deceive, not able to control, she thought she would die. Perhaps when she killed them she didn't have to experience that feeling herself, because she was in control. But she would have to keep on doing it, once that feeling of empowerment subsided.

MOO