UK - Prince Andrew accused of underage sexual relationship, 1999 - 2002

[investikater]

1. VRG was identified as a victim by the Department of Justice

Exhibit Exhibit 1 – #21, Att. #1 in Giuffre v. Maxwell (S.D.N.Y., 1:15-cv-07433) – CourtListener.com

[...]

But her (VRG) name does not appear in that document at all? It is addressed "Dear [blank];".

 

[Legally Bland]

But her (VRG) name does not appear in that document at all? It is addressed "Dear [blank];".

The evidence begins with the fact that the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the
U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of Florida identified Ms. Giuffre as a sexual
assault victim of Jeffrey Epstein. See Declaration of Sigrid McCawley at Exhibit 1

Response in Opposition to Motion – #20 in Giuffre v. Maxwell (S.D.N.Y., 1:15-cv-07433) – CourtListener.com

 

[UK Girl]

"deleted"

 

[UK Girl]

What a horrible opinion piece. It's been known for years that VRG has openly admitted recruiting girls. I am in no way criticising Carolyn, but she also recruited girls for Epstein. She's entitled to her view of VRG but I see them both as victims. I think the prosecution described it best as to why victims recruited other girls, it was a "pyramid scheme of abuse."

The pile on against VRG only serves PA and Dershowitz and I think it's only right that these questions are resolved. Wherever the chips may fall.

What we have at the moment are attempts to criminalise a victim. The reason why VRG has never been charged with regards to her involvement is because she is recognised as a victim of sex trafficking. It's not because of the NPA, or some legal loophole, it's because she's a victim.

Some people really need to give their heads a good shake.

What a horrible opinion piece. It's been known for years that VRG has openly admitted recruiting girls. I am in no way criticising Carolyn, but she also recruited girls for Epstein. She's entitled to her view of VRG but I see them both as victims. I think the prosecution described it best as to why victims recruited other girls, it was a "pyramid scheme of abuse."

The pile on against VRG only serves PA and Dershowitz and I think it's only right that these questions are resolved. Wherever the chips may fall.

What we have at the moment are attempts to criminalise a victim. The reason why VRG has never been charged with regards to her involvement is because she is recognised as a victim of sex trafficking. It's not because of the NPA, or some legal loophole, it's because she's a victim.

Some people really need to give their heads a good shake.

to be honest I have seen a lot of praise for the article as it is asking questions that many this side of the pond would like to know. I wanted to say though that I do agree that its only right the questions are resolved. Regardless of what anyone including me thinks of him he has the right to a fair trial and to clear him self if innocent especially when there have been discrepancies ie he spent two days with her somewhere which she later withdrew. I just hope one way or another its settled once and for all.

You said at the moment we are seeing attempts to criminalise a victim but..a victim has made it clear thats how she feels due to that persons actions when she was just 14 and how it affected her for so many years....its just sad tbh.

 

[investikater]

The evidence begins with the fact that the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the
U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of Florida identified Ms. Giuffre as a sexual
assault victim of Jeffrey Epstein. See Declaration of Sigrid McCawley at Exhibit 1

Response in Opposition to Motion – #20 in Giuffre v. Maxwell (S.D.N.Y., 1:15-cv-07433) – CourtListener.com

I don't understand:
First document you linked is a letter addressed to blank.
Second document you linked is VRG's lawyer saying in a lawsuit between VRG and GM that the letter was sent to VRG.
But if that is the case, why would VRG's name need to be redacted in her own lawsuit?

 

[Vern]

to be honest I have seen a lot of praise for the article as it is asking questions that many this side of the pond would like to know. I wanted to say though that I do agree that its only right the questions are resolved. Regardless of what anyone including me thinks of him he has the right to a fair trial and to clear him self if innocent especially when there have been discrepancies ie he spent two days with her somewhere which she later withdrew. I just hope one way or another its settled once and for all.

You said at the moment we are seeing attempts to criminalise a victim but..a victim has made it clear thats how she feels due to that persons actions when she was just 14 and how it affected her for so many years....its just sad tbh.

I agree. This whole situation sucks, but PA has certainly been criminalized as well. The presumption for him has disappeared. Hopefully, we'll have an outcome one way or the other due to the civil process that is at least - understandable even if not a finding of guilt.

Persons on both sides of this issue have rights and none are more important than the others' IMO. One has the presumption to be assumed not to be lying (the victim ... and by default any accused who denies such must be a liar [at least in this day and age is presumed to be the/a liar]) and the accused has the presumption to be assumed innocent until proven otherwise (in this case proven to be the liar).

In this case, apparently victims rights to be presumed to be telling the truth are trumping any right to be considered innocent until proven otherwise. It's a tough spot to be in. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It would be an even tougher spot if an accused actually were innocent.

 

[UK Girl]

I agree. This whole situation sucks, but PA has certainly been criminalized as well. The presumption for him has disappeared. Hopefully, we'll have an outcome one way or the other due to the civil process that is at least - understandable even if not a finding of guilt.

Both sides of this issue have rights and none are more important than the others' IMO.

I agree I have seen him called all sorts when hes not even been to court yet. Yes I think some of his actions are odd but he hasnt been convicted of anything yet /

 

[Vern]

I agree I have seen him called all sorts when hes not even been to court yet. Yes I think some of his actions are odd but he hasnt been convicted of anything yet /

That all ended the day the world decided that we no longer had to utilize words like "alleged victim" and "the accused". PA is being referred to as one of her abusers. Where has that been proven? He is only an "alleged abuser" of hers at this point in time.

VG is a proven victim (in the case of GM and JE), yet she remains only an "alleged victim" of PAs at this point in time. The two are not equal.

 

[Legally Bland]

I don't understand:
First document you linked is a letter addressed to blank.
Second document you linked is VRG's lawyer saying in a lawsuit between VRG and GM that the letter was sent to VRG.
But if that is the case, why would VRG's name need to be redacted in her own lawsuit?

It doesn't really matter, VRG's lawyer has declared its authenticity.

 

[Dotta]

This case is so disgusting!

What happened to the island Little St. James?

What a shame that such a beautiful island was converted into the "hub of depravity".
I pity the locals.

Aha, there were many theories of the strange building resembling a temple there.
Im curious if there are some answers.
I once read it was a music/library building.

 

[JDG]

That all ended the day the world decided that we no longer had to utilize words like "alleged victim" and "the accused". PA is being referred to as one of her abusers. Where has that been proven? He is only an "alleged abuser" of hers at this point in time.

VG is a proven victim (in the case of GM and JE), yet she remains only an "alleged victim" of PAs at this point in time. The two are not equal.

I thought I read that VG was bragging about ‘being with’ PA and that she had said he was NOT abusive but quite polite ie saying thank you to her.

perhaps he had no idea of her being trafficked and had no concerns because she was of legal age in Britain.

 

[tayaway]

Aren’t all young people easily excited with opportunties to meet or be noticed by celebrities though? Just look at rock concerts as one example. The coercion happened long before PA was brought over to have sex with VG. It began when GM and JE first recruited VG to be used solely as a sex object for themselves and others. Can you see that VG was groomed, just as C was groomed?

I believe C was as much a victim/survivor as VG in the criminal sexual trafficking enterprise of GM and JE.

Every one of these girls in their youth was manipulated for sexual exploitation, which in turn distorted their entire view of life. I don’t know if C ever recruited other girls too, but at what point does the blaming between the victims/survivors stop? It just illustrates the extent of the damage caused by the likes of JE, GM, and others in high places.

Those who were benefiting from the exploitation of young, vulnerable girls need to be held accountable. MOO.

Rock stars are a great example of the normalization of mature adult male sex with underage girls. I read books written by groupies like Pamela des Barres (I'm With The Band), who talked about the 'baby groupies,' the little 14 and 15 year-olds, like Lori Maddox, who Jimmy Page and David Bowie slept with.

It was common knowledge and yet, to this day, people of the Boomer and Gen X (my generation) glorify guys like David Bowie (happy bday yesterday off in the stardust somewhere) for being an amazing genius.

Those underaged girls wanted and got it. Oh wait, it doesn't matter what those 14 or 15 year old girls wanted, b/c they legally couldn't consent. Oops.

New York Post, July, 2021 - Lori Maddox speaks:

Lori Maddox has repeatedly claimed that she lost her virginity to the late megastar at the age of 14. The Ziggy Stardust singer was 22 at the time in the early ’70s. Maddox — then known as Mattix — was involved with the so-called “Baby Groupies” of Los Angeles and met him at one of the nightclubs they frequented.

According to the now-62-year-old, Bowie pursued her but she initially rejected him. However, despite her young age, she maintains they had sex a few months later when she ended up in his hotel room. This led to an alleged threesome with another underage girl, Sable Starr.

In an interview with Thrillist in 2015, Maddox said she had no regrets about her early encounter. However, she was less sanguine when quoted in a 2018 article in the Guardian when the #MeToo movement was at its peak. She said: “I don’t think underage girls should sleep with guys … I wouldn’t want this for anybody’s daughter. My perspective is changing as I get older and more cynical.”

It's an extremely unequal power dynamic b/t these young girls and the mature, adult males, whether it be a 17 year old nobody girl and a 40ish year old spoiled prince, or C and JE or a baby groupie and a rock star in his 20s or 30s.

eta:

I thought I read that VG was bragging about ‘being with’ PA and that she had said he was NOT abusive but quite polite ie saying thank you to her.

perhaps he had no idea of her being trafficked and had no concerns because she was of legal age in Britain.

Please see the Lori Maddox quote here.

 

[Dotta]

I thought I read that VG was bragging about ‘being with’ PA and that she had said he was NOT abusive but quite polite ie saying thank you to her.

perhaps he had no idea of her being trafficked and had no concerns because she was of legal age in Britain.

Re PA
"Ignorance of the law, excuses no one".

An old legal principle.

 

[UK Girl]

I thought I read that VG was bragging about ‘being with’ PA and that she had said he was NOT abusive but quite polite ie saying thank you to her.

perhaps he had no idea of her being trafficked and had no concerns because she was of legal age in Britain.

Carolynn is saying that VG was bragging about it yes.

 

[UK Girl]

Rock stars are a great example of the normalization of mature adult male sex with underage girls. I read books written by groupies like Pamela des Barres (I'm With The Band), who talked about the 'baby groupies,' the little 14 and 15 year-olds, like Lori Maddox, who Jimmy Page and David Bowie slept with.

It was common knowledge and yet, to this day, people of the Boomer and Gen X (my generation) glorify guys like David Bowie (happy bday yesterday off in the stardust somewhere) for being an amazing genius.

Those underaged girls wanted and got it. Oh wait, it doesn't matter what those 14 or 15 year old girls wanted, b/c they legally couldn't consent. Oops.

New York Post, July, 2021 - Lori Maddox speaks:

Lori Maddox has repeatedly claimed that she lost her virginity to the late megastar at the age of 14. The Ziggy Stardust singer was 22 at the time in the early ’70s. Maddox — then known as Mattix — was involved with the so-called “Baby Groupies” of Los Angeles and met him at one of the nightclubs they frequented.

According to the now-62-year-old, Bowie pursued her but she initially rejected him. However, despite her young age, she maintains they had sex a few months later when she ended up in his hotel room. This led to an alleged threesome with another underage girl, Sable Starr.

In an interview with Thrillist in 2015, Maddox said she had no regrets about her early encounter. However, she was less sanguine when quoted in a 2018 article in the Guardian when the #MeToo movement was at its peak. She said: “I don’t think underage girls should sleep with guys … I wouldn’t want this for anybody’s daughter. My perspective is changing as I get older and more cynical.”

It's an extremely unequal power dynamic b/t these young girls and the mature, adult males, whether it be a 17 year old nobody girl and a 40ish year old spoiled prince, or C and JE or a baby groupie and a rock star in his 20s or 30s.

eta:



Please see the Lori Maddox quote here.

except we dont know that the "spoilt prince" did anything wrong ofc yet

 

[tayaway]

except we dont know that the "spoilt prince" did anything wrong ofc yet

Sure, nothing wrong with hanging out at a convicted pedophile's mansion full of underage girls.

 

[Dotta]

Sure, nothing wrong with hanging out at a convicted pedophile's mansion full of underage girls.

You forgot to add that JE sponsored ex wife of Royal Prince.
My God, what a shame!!!!

 

[UK Girl]

Sure, nothing wrong with hanging out at a convicted pedophile's mansion full of underage girls.

You forgot to add that JE sponsored ex wife of Royal Prince.
My God, what a shame!!!!

that still isnt illegal weirdly enough. Its not something I would ever do but hell Clinton and Trump spent a lot of time with Epstein too

as for sponsoring her? how? he lent her some money yes....sponsoring her? where? and she has actually spoken out against Epstein

Jeffrey Epstein Reportedly Wanted to Sue Sarah Ferguson After She Referred to Him as a Pedophile | Vanity Fair

 

[Dotta]

that still isnt illegal weirdly enough. Its not something I would ever do but hell Clinton and Trump spent a lot of time with Epstein too

as for sponsoring her? how? he lent her some money yes....sponsoring her? where? and she has actually spoken out against Epstein

Jeffrey Epstein Reportedly Wanted to Sue Sarah Ferguson After She Referred to Him as a Pedophile | Vanity Fair

Borrowing dirty money from a blackmailing pervert doesnt bring glory to RF.

"Pecunia non olet" I guess.

Oh, do people still curtsy and bow when they meet PA?
Asking for a friend hehe

 

[UK Girl]

Borrowing dirty money from a blackmailing pervert doesnt bring glory to RF.

"Pecunia non olet" I guess.

Oh, do people still curtsy and bow when they meet PA?
Asking for a friend hehe

You said he sponsored her. He didnt ...He was a financier they lend money..she made her feelings plain what she thought about him once she found out...good on her. I have never really understood why they never seem to have no money.