GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #11

[cottonweaver]

It wasn't necessarily like that when police finally got in to do a routine missing persons search on Tuesday 24th Feb though. The photos will be from after SH/NM were arrested on suspicion of kidnapping on 28th Feb.

I tried to post this last night but it wouldn't deliver. This is regarding the discussions yesterday about the pair possibly moving junk around ( eg garden to the lounge) either to put off a police search and the posts about the bathroom and bath being clearer of objects post the killing of Becky enabling something sinister ( even if not the sawing itself) to occur in the tub.

Police first visit to CML- This is PC's account of CML before the photographs of their home that were taken .Photos were taken after the arrest .
( Those photos are here:
http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/pictures/beccky/pictures-27974874-detail/pictures.html

Two police officers who finally gained access to Matthews and Hoare's home found it full of rubbish - except for the bathroom.
After an initial search of the property was delayed due to Matthews and Hoare being at her mother's house, Detective Constables Lisa Aruthen and Simon Wallis went to the house on February 24.
The prosecution allege that this was after three days of the couple cutting up Becky's body at the address and the night after it was moved to a shed belonging to a friend of Matthews.

DC Aruthen said Matthews answered the door looking pale and he had dark circles around his eyes.
She told the jury: 'There were all manner of items and stuff piled around. There was a smell I attributed to cat faeces. I noticed there was a cat.
'He invited us in and immediately invited my colleague and I upstairs. It was in a similar condition - piled high with all manner of clutter.
'Shauna was on the double bed. There was barely any interaction. She didn't interact with myself or my colleague.
'The bedroom appeared to be the main living area for the address. It was piled high with all sorts of clutter.
'The walkway to the bed was the only clear area. On one side of the bed there was a toaster, kettle and condiments such as ketchup.'
Her colleague, DC Wallis, told the court: 'The bathroom door was at the top of the stairs. I asked which this room was. He said it was the bathroom. It was the only door that was shut.
'I stepped in one to two feet. It was cleaner than the rest of the house. The bathroom window was open.
'The actual bath itself was clear. There was nothing on it or on the sides at all. However, on the floor of the bathroom there were bags. The bath was clean.'
Mr Wallis added: 'It was hard to envisage a family living comfortably at the address due to the volume of clutter scattered around the house.
'I don't believe the downstairs could have been used, there was nowhere to sit and no way to gain access to the kitchen facilities.'
The officers explained that Matthews told him 'if he was out in his car and saw an item he believed he could fix he would bring it home'.


Read more:*http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ling-girlfriend-jury-told.html#ixzz3qEbFRqnh*

So since 24th of PC visit and arrest on kidnap charges on the 28th Feb, the shampoo bottles etc are now all back around the bathtub rim. It is also intersting that PC above says bath floor had bags. Does this mean that by time of 28th Feb they have moved a cooker, micro and all the other junk INTO the bathroom? How come the PC does not mention the cooker plus micro etc but mentions the bags?! A cooker is a particularly strange thing to have in a bathroom of that size. So was it not there on 24th? ( as seen in photos linked of CML bathroom) Can't imagine PC doesn't see them neither, she noted window was open and was observant etc.

 

[YidArmyRach]

I am more convinced than ever that she didn't get her dates wrong.

If the neighbour is right and she heard all those noises on 19th - could it be that NM (and perhaps SH) were creating space BEFORE they went to kidnap Becky?

 

[Clio]

I tried to post this last night but it wouldn't deliver. This is regarding the discussions yesterday about the pair possibly moving junk around ( eg garden to the lounge) either to put off a police search and the posts about the bathroom and bath being clearer of objects post the killing of Becky enabling something sinister ( even if not the sawing itself) to occur in the tub.

Police first visit to CML- This is pre-the photographs of their home that were taken after arrest.
( Those photos are here:
http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/pictures/beccky/pictures-27974874-detail/pictures.html


So since 24th of PC visit and arrest on kidnap charges on the 28th Feb, the shampoo bottles etc are now all back around the bathtub rim. It is also intersting that PC above says bath floor had bags. Does this mean that by time of 28th Feb they have moved a cooker, micro and all the other junk INTO the bathroom? How come the PC does not mention the cooker plus micro etc but mentions the bags?! A cooker is a particularly strange thing to have in a bathroom of that size. So was it not there on 24th? ( as seen in photos linked of CML bathroom)

That is my understanding yes. On 24th when police searched there was no cooker/microwave in the bathroom. Why he/they moved a cooker/microwave into the bathroom after the 24th I have no idea. Unless prior to all this happening, the bathroom is where the cooker etc used to live and it had to be cleared out of the bathroom in order to do the disposal.

 

[Clio]

If the neighbour is right and she heard all those noises on 19th - could it be that NM (and perhaps SH) were creating space BEFORE they went to kidnap Becky?

If SW is to be believed, she heard the noises between 11am and 2pm so unlikely imho

 

[YidArmyRach]

I agree.

Regarding the noises, why would NM carelessly slam doors? If he is desperately trying to avoid SH seeing or hearing anything suspicious in the cold light of day, I'm sure he would close the door gently.

If we are to believe SH's non involvement in the 'before' scenario, NM would be at pains creeping around ever so quietly. Stomping down stairs and slamming doors will bring a person into the living area, just out of curiosity.
This is what makes it unbelievable. A criminal in the dead of night may sneak into a house and bedroom, assault and suffocate a victim, and then leaves quietly without disturbing sleeping occupants in the next room. SH is on the premises, wide awake in broad daylight and hears only one set of sounds, stomping downstairs and a door slam?!

NM was having a battle with Becky for between 5-10 mins, killed her and was making multiple trips downstairs, stomping, slamming doors, like he didn't care if he was caught.
So when SH eventually came into the lounge room and NM (sweating profusely) was seated on the sofa, she would have remarked that she heard noises, must have been Becky going out and he agreed?
And NM never went back upstairs to check he cleared or removed evidence? These two obsessed with Becky's life and whatnot, yet this day, while Becky is 'out', SH and NM stayed seated till AG arrived home ?

Sorry I'm rehashing over it, but I can't visualize the setting and how NM got away with it! :thinking:

Hmmm. I see what you mean. If the only noise SH heard was NM deliberately slamming the door to make it appear that Becky had left, then he had created the situation for them to have to stay there for hours and tell the story of her leaving, as he had made them the last people to "hear" her.

However, if he hadn't slammed the door, then they could have gone home immediately - told everyone that they hadn't seen or heard Becky, just heard her music, so didn't know if she was in when they were there, and still in when they left, or whether she had gone out before they arrived and left her music on .... and they'd only popped in to drop off a cake tin, so couldn't add any information for the police. If SH was innocent, she didn't have to get involved. However, his slamming of the door makes her involved, as he has created the position of "witness" for SH.

 

[cottonweaver]

If the neighbour is right and she heard all those noises on 19th - could it be that NM (and perhaps SH) were creating space BEFORE they went to kidnap Becky?

Mmmm interesting Rach.

here is webb on 18th evening again

"She described hearing noises in the evening of February 18 – the day before Becky went missing from her home.
There was shouting and*screaming between Shauna and Nathan," Mrs Webb said.
"It was early evening, I was putting my little one to bed so it was between 6 and 7 maybe. It was for more than half an hour. It was very unusual.
"They were very, very quiet people. We never heard bumps or banging or people on the stairs. We often thought that they weren't actually in."

Making space? Moving some of NM's precious junk?As another post implied ( mrzada?) that in itself is poss enough to make NM lose his temper. However I can't find anything more than rows on that evening - not actually bumps & banging for that evening - just the row.
So simply arguing about the plan for tomorrow morn?

 

[cottonweaver]

AFAIK, there were no tweets and I have seen no reports of what the witness HB said, other than that she discussed the noises and timings with SW.

Remember SW said that having heard the noises, she thought they were doing DIY. Something gave her that idea. The sound of a saw perhaps?

Try this account from Bath newsp and see if you can distinguish the DIY noise between the 2 noise events. Once again a reporter seems to have combined noise accounts from two separate days so it becomes very unclear.

http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/Beck...-unknowingly/story-27947812-detail/story.html

 

[Clio]

<rsbm>
So simply arguing about the plan for tomorrow morn?

Or simply arguing about something. Something that caused NM to decide he would execute "the plan" tomorrow.

The problem is that SW didn't report hearing the argument and noises until after NM/SH were arrested on suspicion of murder so her recollection of dates and times is possibly wrong.

Is it more likely that she got the dates right or is it more likely she got the times right?

 

[Clio]

Try this account from Bath newsp and see if you can distinguish the DIY noise between the 2 noise events. Once again a reporter seems to have combined noise accounts from two separate days so it becomes very unclear.

http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/Beck...-unknowingly/story-27947812-detail/story.html

It's not clear and yes, the reporter seems to have mixed info together. That's why I like to look at tweets from several journos as things happen in court. This means you get to hear the info before the journo writes up his article and possibly gets things muddled. And if two or more journos tweet the same info, but aren't copying from each other, then it's likely to be accurate information.

ETA SW testimony is inconclusive. She first reported the banging/scraping/dragging/running up and down stairs noises on 4th March. It was some time later she reported the argument.

 

[Alyce]

Just having a catch up this morning.

Is there any direct evidence that NM and SH did buy batteries for the stun gun on that morning, Feb 19. I mean we know they stopped at Tesco but is it simply NMs testimony that says batteries were purchased ?
Otherwise I am thinking they did not have the stun gun/s with them on that day.

I think it was an argument between NM and Becky that got out of hand - possibly with SH coming up the stairs and joining in the argument, once she heard raised voices and the argument has spread out of the bedroom to the landing .
The remainder of the event was joint action I believe, without the use of sellotape, handcuffs, stun gun or suitcase.
The reason for including all these items would be to make it seem as though NM could have done the killing on his own, being as he had items to hand to assist in subduing Becky. Without these items it would be hard to believe that he was able to do what he did.
( this to me explains his very clumsy explanation for how he killed Becky. Most of it is really beyond belief and if it were not so tragic, it would be laughable ).

After the killing, NM and SH then use the duvet cover and take Becky down to the boot of the car and NM departs to CML.
Having said earlier that I could not understand why , if they did this, they did not just stay at CML, I can now see that it would make more sense for them to be at Crown Hill all day. Plenty of time to do more spot checks and ensure no evidence around and also give them the opportunity of dissuading AG from calling the police, if she had thought about reporting Becky as missing immediately.

I think NM was fortunate that no one saw him on that day as he took the body from his car into CML, but not impossible. A great pity there is no CCTV but no doubt it had been overwritten by the time police checked.
And that is even if they did check that day, and didnt just accept that NM never moved from Crown Hill all day.
Likely he did this trip on his own, leaving SH at Crown Hill with the child. SH then has time to do a tidy up and make sure no evidence has been left. Although, as we know, she didnt do a good enough job on the door frame.
Additionally, the child is left to watch tv, so no chance of her talking about having gone home again ( although at just 2 years old, possibly not something she would be capable of ? )

With NM at CML for a short period, this would cover the noise heard by the neighbour at CML at the appropriate time ( assuming she has got the date spot on ).

The stun gun/s, handcuffs, sellotape and suitcase - all were added into the story later, to give weight to the explanation that NM acted alone. Unfortunately, for many people, when you try to lie and create a story that didnt happen, then you can trip up on the details, as NM has done, big time.

 

[cottonweaver]

Or simply arguing about something. Something that caused NM to decide he would execute "the plan" tomorrow.

The problem is that SW didn't report hearing the argument and noises until after NM/SH were arrested on suspicion of murder so her recollection of dates and times is possibly wrong.

Is it more likely that she got the dates right or is it more likely she got the times right?

Yes she could be mistaken - have read that point on here previously so never focussed on it properly. What if she got both times & dates correct - is that not possibe? ( What am I missing?)

I'm thinking she is right although my sticking point is why Cops would not have found CCTV evidence of NM driving back to CML as per 11-2am noises of potentially a single male voice by Webb at CML.

Returning back to the issue of Webb hearing rows 6-7pm of 18th Feb, eve before BW taken.....if Webb says she never usually hears a squeak from their house, it's mightily coincidental that night before a planned abduction/killing they have a blazing row. I don't think this is going to be about leaving toilet seat up.

Giving SH the benefit of the doubt ( for a change!) it might be SH saying she does not want him/them to go through with this plan. Pure and baseless speculation of course, but it's another possibility out a zillion others.

What a pity that Webb didn't put a glass to the wall.

 

[onthecounter]

Yes she could be mistaken - have read that point on here previously so never focussed on it properly. What if she got both times & dates correct - is that not possibe? ( What am I missing?)

I'm thinking she is right although my sticking point is why Cops would not have found CCTV evidence of NM driving back to CML as per 11-2am noises of potentially a single male voice by Webb at CML.

Returning back to the issue of Webb hearing rows 6-7pm of 18th Feb, eve before BW taken.....if Webb says she never usually hears a squeak from their house, it's mightily coincidental that night before a planned abduction/killing they have a blazing row. I don't think this is going to be about leaving toilet seat up.

Giving SH the benefit of the doubt ( for a change!) it might be SH saying she does not want him/them to go through with this plan. Pure and baseless speculation of course, but it's another possibility out a zillion others.

What a pity that Webb didn't put a glass to the wall.

I don't think there ever was a planned killing/ kidnap. I believe this was pure invention. I do however believe that raised voices were heard that night, and that it was a very heated argument about Becky resulting in agreeing they would see her alone the next day.

I wonder what occurred to cause this argument the night prior? What had been discovered by NM or SH and what was the link to Becky? I don't believe they snapped because of a growing resentment towards Becky's attitude, but a sudden highly dangerous/ emotive discovery.

 

[Alyce]

That is my understanding yes. On 24th when police searched there was no cooker/microwave in the bathroom. Why he/they moved a cooker/microwave into the bathroom after the 24th I have no idea. Unless prior to all this happening, the bathroom is where the cooker etc used to live and it had to be cleared out of the bathroom in order to do the disposal.

So if there was no cooker/microwave in the bathroom on the 24th, and they were put there later ( or put back in there later ) then all that rubbish on the floor, to the right of the cooker/microwave in the photo, must have accumulated since the 24th ?
Could they really add that much cr*p to the room in just 3 days ( being as they were at SHs mother's most of the time ) or has that additional stuff been placed ( or rather thrown ) into the bathroom, to add as much mess as possible ?

 

[Clio]

Yes she could be mistaken - have read that point on here previously so never focussed on it properly. What if she got both times & dates correct - is that not possibe? ( What am I missing?)

I'm thinking she is right although my sticking point is why Cops would not have found CCTV evidence of NM driving back to CML as per 11-2am noises of potentially a single male voice by Webb at CML.

Returning back to the issue of Webb hearing rows 6-7pm of 18th Feb, eve before BW taken.....if Webb says she never usually hears a squeak from their house, it's mightily coincidental that night before a planned abduction/killing they have a blazing row. I don't think this is going to be about leaving toilet seat up.

Giving SH the benefit of the doubt ( for a change!) it might be SH saying she does not want him/them to go through with this plan. Pure and baseless speculation of course, but it's another possibility out a zillion others.

What a pity that Webb didn't put a glass to the wall.

BIB Couldn't have been noises between 11am and 2pm if NM was at CH by the time AG got back from hospital at 12:45pm

It's not even certain that the argument and the noises were on consecutive days. It might even be that the argument was in the evening of the 18th and the "noises" were on the 20th

 

[Alyce]

Yes she could be mistaken - have read that point on here previously so never focussed on it properly. What if she got both times & dates correct - is that not possibe? ( What am I missing?)

I'm thinking she is right although my sticking point is why Cops would not have found CCTV evidence of NM driving back to CML as per 11-2am noises of potentially a single male voice by Webb at CML.

Returning back to the issue of Webb hearing rows 6-7pm of 18th Feb, eve before BW taken.....if Webb says she never usually hears a squeak from their house, it's mightily coincidental that night before a planned abduction/killing they have a blazing row. I don't think this is going to be about leaving toilet seat up.

Giving SH the benefit of the doubt ( for a change!) it might be SH saying she does not want him/them to go through with this plan. Pure and baseless speculation of course, but it's another possibility out a zillion others.

What a pity that Webb didn't put a glass to the wall.

Re the No CCTV. Very likely was written over by the time the police came to check, which would have been probably a week or more later.

Didnt NM go to work on that night of the 18th - not sure how that fits into the row, but might pinpoint the time of the row.

LOL re the non existent toilet seat !

 

[Alyce]

I don't think there ever was a planned killing/ kidnap. I believe this was pure invention. I do however believe that raised voices were heard that night, and that it was a very heated argument about Becky resulting in agreeing they would see her alone the next day.

I wonder what occurred to cause this argument the night prior? What had been discovered by NM or SH and what was the link to Becky? I don't believe they snapped because of a growing resentment towards Becky's attitude, but a sudden highly dangerous/ emotive discovery.

Perhaps it was a row about money which escalated. SH annoyed that NM owed money to Becky and they perhaps had no way of paying it back. Perhaps SH suggested going over to Crown Hill the following day, to try and sort it out with Becky, ask her to write off the debt ?

 

[Clio]

Re the No CCTV. Very likely was written over by the time the police came to check, which would have been probably a week or more later.

Didnt NM go to work on that night of the 18th - not sure how that fits into the row, but might pinpoint the time of the row.

LOL re the non existent toilet seat !

They have CCTV of NM's car on the way to CH on the morning of 19th so unlikely any CCTV of him "nipping back" to CML between 11am and 12.45pm was overwritten. He could have taken a different route or more likely imo, he never left CH until later that evening when NM/SH & child went home

 

[onthecounter]

I'm stuck on motive, I really am. I can't see the wood for the trees. Always truth in amongst their lies: The cheque in the loft...protection of AW...from what?...sexual perversion...money...obsession...

I can't see the wood for the trees. What was the smoking gun that caused the argument on the 18th?

 

[ColourPurple]

BIB Couldn't have been noises between 11am and 2pm if NM was back at CH by the time AG got back from hospital at 12:45pm

It's not even certain that the argument and the noises were on consecutive days.

I don't think she's saying there was constant noise between 11 and 2. I understood her to mean that she's not sure what time she heard the noises but she knows it would have been between 11 and 2, she was trying to put her little one down for a nap so maybe she knows the time frame he'd normally go down for a nap.

If that's the case then 11-12.45 would fall in those times.

 

[Alyce]

They have CCTV of NM's car on the way to CH on the morning of 19th so unlikely any CCTV of him "nipping back" to CML between 11am and 12.45pm was overwritten. He could have taken a different route or more likely imo, he never left CH until later that evening when NM/SH & child went home

I am thinking of CCTV directly outside the house at CML which may have been written over by the time police got round to checking.

The other clip we have, that of NM and SH in the car ( or rather the car, to be precise ! )going to Crown Hill, is in a different area of Bristol isnt it, so could be that CCTV is kept longer in the system