GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #9

[Thomas Andrews]

Much obliged, iclaudia!

I don't think there is sufficient evidence to convict SH imo.

 

[sar2them1984]

I must confess that I still have an open mind about most of it, largely due to the muddled way the case seems to have been conducted so far. It's been very difficult to follow, particularly as there are two other defendants in court. On which note, has the prosecution offered any evidence against DD at all?

btw there is an illustration of why most of us use names or initials to refer to suspects. There are several people involved in this case. Nothing wrong with naming suspects once they've been charged.

In esherlocks defence I've been a part of many cases on here both from the UK and American and have seen both initials and the terminology esherlock uses to identify individuals. I don't think there's anything wrong in that and I think people are splitting hairs now. In fact I think mods should lock down this thread for a bit as it's really getting much further in the cattiness stakes than the mods normally allow

Eta : doh just seen cold pizzas warning..must catch up fully before I stand on my soapbox

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[YidArmyRach]

These videos of SH aren't the ones discussed in court today though, these are the voluntary interviews before arrests and before BW's body parts were found

I know, but I still find them relevant, as I found it odd that she is all smiles and giggles when being questioned about a missing person, presumed to have come to serious harm. Becky's family were convinced she'd been sexually assaulted from the beginning - remember her dad's FB. The clips were relevant to what I was saying regarding her cool and assured manner when being interviewed.

This is a police interview about a missing person who nobody thought had left voluntarily and SH was one of the two last people to see her alive. I'd be worried, scared and serious in her position, even if I was totally innocent. The circumstantial stuff alone would worry me.

 

[YidArmyRach]

Good morning everyone. I hope you all have a good day today, whatever you are doing.

It got a bit stressy last night, to say the least, so I thought I'd start the thread off on a calm and considerate fashion!

eace:

 

[Callista]

In esherlocks defence I've been a part of many cases on here both from the UK and American and have seen both initials and the terminology esherlock uses to identify individuals. I don't think there's anything wrong in that and I think people are splitting hairs now. In fact I think mods should lock down this thread for a bit as it's really getting much further in the cattiness stakes than the mods normally allow

Eta : doh just seen cold pizzas warning..must catch up fully before I stand on my soapbox

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This would've been a much better explanation than the 'bow down to my superior deductive skills' response that I received. My original post was not intended as an attack, I simply said I found the use of 'the female' consistently quite uncomfortable. Whether knowingly used or not, it is a term that is considered problematic by many. Until recently this thread was so respectful of others opinions - now we have people jumping down eachother's throats and calling them biased and illogical simply for taking a different stance. What happened?!

 

[Wallace]

Can anybody list/summarise the prosecution's evidence that proves beyond reasonable doubt that SH helped murder BW?

Not really as there is still key evidence to be presented.

Even then we will probably need to wait for the summing up in a few weeks to see how it all threads together.

The case against SH is made up of lots of tiny little pieces of evidence rather than one clear and unequivocal smoking gun.

I personally think that it comes down to one thing. How credible is it that all this happened without her knowledge.

 

[sar2them1984]

It's easy for us all (myself included) to sit behind our keyboards and type out responses without putting much thought into how the post will be interpreted...it's easy to misinterpret posts especially when it's on a topic or subject on which we have differing views..and yes there are some people who do just like to stir things up for the sake of it...

I guess what I'm trying to say is on every case I've been involved in there's been these kind of issues - to varying degrees. I think where this case differs is that when it is blatantly obvious people do not agree with one another, posters are just going around and around in circles trying to prove their point and getting personal in the process.

Park it. Move on. Agree to disagree

... I've seen a lot of valuable contributers leave threads because of what's happened here over the last few days - I'd hate for it to happen here

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[Bethan]

This would've been a much better explanation than the 'bow down to my superior deductive skills' response that I received. My original post was not intended as an attack, I simply said I found the use of 'the female' consistently quite uncomfortable. Whether knowingly used or not, it is a term that is considered problematic by many. Until recently this thread was so respectful of others opinions - now we have people jumping down eachother's throats and calling them biased and illogical simply for taking a different stance. What happened?!

As a retired doctor with a scientific training, I truly don't find the description 'female' in any way offensive or uncomfortable. It is a clear way of differentiating between the two suspects, one male, one female.




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[Alyce]

Morning all, waiting with interest to see what the Defence case will be today

 

[Alyce]

[video=twitter;658911270880591872]https://twitter.com/SiobhanRobbins/status/658911270880591872[/video]

 

[Kaly99]

Not really as there is still key evidence to be presented.

Even then we will probably need to wait for the summing up in a few weeks to see how it all threads together.

The case against SH is made up of lots of tiny little pieces of evidence rather than one clear and unequivocal smoking gun.

I personally think that it comes down to one thing. How credible is it that all this happened without her knowledge.

The prosecution closed their case yesterday, so no more evidence forthcoming from them at any rate. The only key evidence I can see being presented now is the defendants' testimonies, if any of them decide to take the stand, which I'm starting to doubt, at least in the case of NM and SH. I also wonder if the prosecution calling JI's friend as a witness might indicate JI isn't going to speak either, in which case relying on the information about the man and woman arguing is going to be problematic.

I agree about the credibility issue with SH, but even if the jury decide it isn't credible this all went on without her knowledge, I find it hard to see her being convicted of anything but assisting an offender.

 

[Tealgrove]

I'm so far behind in these threads so I did some catch up just reading articles. This is not going the way I thought it was going to go. I'm confused by the evidence as the Prosecution's case and theory doesn't seem to match the evidence being presented. I'm actually starting to believe these two. Never thought I'd say that. So much of this just doesn't add up.

 

[Tortoise]

Can anybody list/summarise the prosecution's evidence that proves beyond reasonable doubt that SH helped murder BW?

these are my thoughts on what the jury will ponder, as evidence of her guilt -

1. being at the house after checking Becky was at home, on her suggestion (to return the cake tin) and not having a plausible reason for staying all day
2. order of 2 stun guns - more than one person requires
3. a dubious reason for not hearing anything - she could have smoked in the conservatory as it was raining and she's more than doubled the time it takes to smoke. feeding rabbit could be untrue.
4. if she was in the kitchen when she heard stomping and the door slam that can't have been NM coming down with Becky's body.
5. I haven't heard evidence of either of them leaving DNA on the body.
6. Becky had a lot of injuries before she died. was it 40 areas of bruising? that is a long fight and struggle with plenty of banging around and no doubt she would have been screeching her head off. the suffocation would take at least 5 minutes. the struggle, let's estimate another 5-10 minutes? the realisation that Becky is now dead, not planned for surely, so a pause for thought what to do now with what's happened. There is airborne blood on the spare room door frame and the forensic expert said they are not sure if the screwdriver stab wounds to the neck occurred before or after death. There was Becky's blood on her onesie. My guess is that the killer(s) did not know Becky had died and thought she may have just been rendered unconscious. To make sure of this, he/they laid her on a duvet cover on the landing and used a screwdriver to stab her. Her heart had stopped so there wasn't a circulation and she didn't bleed heavily. The plunging of the screwdriver caused the airborne blood spots. There is no concrete evidence of this happening but it is a possibility and if it did happen that's another 5-10 minutes. He/they then went to get the car boot liner to wrap her in to stop a blood trail in the house. Becky's blood and hair was found on the boot liner. Carrying Becky's body down the stairs to the car another 5 minutes to get there and back inside the house. Taking Becky's coat, laptop, phone, tablet (planning it and doing it) 5 minutes. Going around to make sure there is no sign of a struggle upstairs and straightening out her bed covers, washing blood off hands and possibly clothes before Anjie comes back, 5-10 minutes. Going back up to stomp down the stairs. I don't think all that could have occurred while SH was having a *advertiser censored*.
7. NM not looking dishevelled or injured, calmly playing a game on his tablet after all this. really? he has fibromyalgia, he would have been kicked about by Becky, she had massive swelling and bruising on the front of one shin. I think he would have been in pain after such strenuous activity, to restrain and suffocate a live person who is fighting for their life and breath.
8. Highly suspicious activity and totally unbelievable ignorance in the days and week following. If she had found out about it afterwards she didn't let the police know when she was in the safe sanctuary of the police station. That in itself casts doubt on her story about what happened on the morning of Becky's death.
9. Her DNA must have been in Becky's room but they wouldn't use that as evidence because she was a regular visitor to the house and it could have got there anytime. It's just not in Becky's blood like NM's was.

I think she may yet be convicted for murder. And there is a possibility NM will tell all.

 

[Callista]

As a retired doctor with a scientific training, I truly don't find the description 'female' in any way offensive or uncomfortable. It is a clear way of differentiating between the two suspects, one male, one female.




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I feel there really would be no issue using this as a term, except we know their names. Why not use them? Because of that I find it odd, but I am willing to concede there is no intent behind it, it's just jarring. Especially considering there is, in fact, more than one female suspect on this case.

As a side note, language and how we use it is important. Words have power, and if we use words that we are told could be considered offensive or triggering by some, then I think it is important we don't belittle those who do. The fact that I identify as a feminist does not make me any less qualified to make deductions about this or any other case.

 

[Wallace]

As a retired doctor with a scientific training, I truly don't find the description 'female' in any way offensive or uncomfortable. It is a clear way of differentiating between the two suspects, one male, one female.




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I don't think it's offensive, but I think people were finding the impersonal use of the terms rather grinding. These people are not anonymous numbers in a blind study, so no real need to refer to them using anything other than their names.

 

[Tortoise]

not having a go at anyone but isn't it time to stop the niggling now? it just prolongs the needling IMO

 

[Kaly99]

The Bristol Post is reporting via Whatsapp that NM is "expected to take the stand today". Wow...!

ETA: "Our court reporter says Nathan Matthews is expected to take the stand today to give evidence. It will be a big moment in the trial".

 

[Wallace]

Nothing niggling or needling intended.

Moving on. ;-)

 

[Wallace]

The Bristol Post is reporting via Whatsapp that NM is "expected to take the stand today". Wow...!

Oh dear, I have a feeling this will not go well for him when it comes to cross examination.

 

[Kaly99]

Oh dear, I have a feeling this will not go well for him when it comes to cross examination.

Must say I'm surprised he's decided to do it (assuming of course that the BP is right) - big risk of making things worse for himself...