Found Deceased UK - Richard Okorogheye, 19, Oxford Student, Ladbroke Grove, West London, 24 Mar 2021

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I can't get my head around a possible suicide in a pond scenario. If you are suicidal and enter a forest, surely the intention would be suicide by hanging JMO. I know anything is possible but it doesn't sit right with me. Could RO potentially have sat down for the night by the pond, passed out from hypothermia/health conditions and somehow ended up in the water?

Anything is possible at this stage. The unfortunate thing is, whether it be suicide or something like you have stated, we will never really know quite what happened. It’s all just incredibly sad.

I am assuming we will at least know for sure if it is Richard at some point today.
 
Is there any reason why the police would have withheld info from the public about where Richard alighted from the bus?

Not that I can think of.

So perhaps he was on a bus with one or more broken cameras, or by the time the police asked for footage it had been over-written? JMO - and wondering if anyone knows how long Tower Transit (operator of the 23 bus route) routinely keep footage

All London buses are flat fare, so no clues from the amount he paid.
 
Not that I can think of.

So perhaps he was on a bus with one or more broken cameras, or by the time the police asked for footage it had been over-written? JMO - and wondering if anyone knows how long Tower Transit (operator of the 23 bus route) routinely keep footage

All London buses are flat fare, so no clues from the amount he paid.


I think the Police might have all the information they need from his bus journey and the time he spent before getting the taxi,so do not need any help from the public.

The police do need help in piecing together what happened after Richard left the taxi so are concentrating their public appeals on the pictures of him leaving the taxi.
 
I understand people being open minded but I’m surprised by the people strongly leaning towards foul play here. From the beginning we knew he wasn’t in a great frame of mind, all of his actions from the point of leaving the house imply somebody with no regard to their immediate health and safety, no plan of returning.

If he was looking for a place to do it he very possibly could have been googling several different potential places with the word ‘suicide’ after, to see how much success or failure people had experienced killing themselves in various places around London/Essex. If you google “Epping Forest Suicide” one of the very first things that comes up, even now it comes above news stories about RO for me, is a badly written and intentionally creeped up blog post about a secret pond in Epping Forest where people are said to commit suicide.

If he was looking for somewhere that was a good spot, the blog post would have got his attention more than any other google search, and if he was looking for something discreet there’s probably nothing better than a place which seems to be legendary for not being easy to find and which is steeped in mystery.

IMO it’s a huge stretch to go from these considerations to foul play. You’d have to really use your imagination.
 
I understand people being open minded but I’m surprised by the people strongly leaning towards foul play here. From the beginning we knew he wasn’t in a great frame of mind, all of his actions from the point of leaving the house imply somebody with no regard to their immediate health and safety, no plan of returning.

If he was looking for a place to do it he very possibly could have been googling several different potential places with the word ‘suicide’ after, to see how much success or failure people had experienced killing themselves in various places around London/Essex. If you google “Epping Forest Suicide” one of the very first things that comes up, even now it comes above news stories about RO for me, is a badly written and intentionally creeped up blog post about a secret pond in Epping Forest where people are said to commit suicide.

If he was looking for somewhere that was a good spot, the blog post would have got his attention more than any other google search, and if he was looking for something discreet there’s probably nothing better than a place which seems to be legendary for not being easy to find and which is steeped in mystery.

IMO it’s a huge stretch to go from these considerations to foul play. You’d have to really use your imagination.

I feel the same way. Everything about this IMO leans towards suicide. It’s sad to think about but I don’t see anything that suggests foul play. I know Miss Joel spoke of grooming but I genuinely believe she didn’t want to accept that Richard could have done this by himself. And I understand that.
 
I understand people being open minded but I’m surprised by the people strongly leaning towards foul play here. From the beginning we knew he wasn’t in a great frame of mind, all of his actions from the point of leaving the house imply somebody with no regard to their immediate health and safety, no plan of returning.

If he was looking for a place to do it he very possibly could have been googling several different potential places with the word ‘suicide’ after, to see how much success or failure people had experienced killing themselves in various places around London/Essex. If you google “Epping Forest Suicide” one of the very first things that comes up, even now it comes above news stories about RO for me, is a badly written and intentionally creeped up blog post about a secret pond in Epping Forest where people are said to commit suicide.

If he was looking for somewhere that was a good spot, the blog post would have got his attention more than any other google search, and if he was looking for something discreet there’s probably nothing better than a place which seems to be legendary for not being easy to find and which is steeped in mystery.

IMO it’s a huge stretch to go from these considerations to foul play. You’d have to really use your imagination.

I'm one of the people who thinks foul play.

When the story broke, his mother was mainly talking in terms of struggling with remote learning and having had to shield for so long, and I was thinking in terms of suicide too, although obviously I hoped he'd be found alive. But then the detail about Loughton broke, which makes no sense in the context of suicide, particularly since there was no connection - not a favourite place to visit as a child, for instance. I get that it shows up as a popular suicide spot if you google it, but why would he google it? If he were to google, say, 'private suicide site london', it doesn't come up at all. He lives literally next to a major canal with plenty of secluded stretches in walking distance of home. If he'd googled 'grand union canal suicide', he'd have found plenty of hits for that. If he wanted to be sure that his mother wouldn't be the one to find him, he had no need to go to Epping Forest.

But what really made me recalibrate my thinking was the CCTV from the Victoria Tavern. It was the first moving image we'd seen and his body language is confident and purposeful imo. I was still assuming suicide at that point, but the footage made me realise I was thinking on those lines for no better reason than that it was an argument I'd already made. It was around that time that the narrative from home changed to one of online grooming, a new set of friends, a prearranged meeting etc and the narrative from the police became 'you're not in trouble'. I presume this also coincided with the police having done a preliminary investigation of his computer/s,

There have been some compelling posts on this thread about the possibility of an organised crime connection, probably county lines. If this sounds far fetched, well, it's not. Kids and young people are sucked every day of the week into couriering and selling drugs, thinking it will be easy money and then finding they've got no choice but to go places they don't want to go and do things they don't want to do. The bait is money but that quickly becomes threats, abductions and violence. Richard could well have been recruited online during lockdown - many have been. It's been speculated he might have gone out at night before, but this trip to Loughton might have been a step up that he wasn't expecting (hence no coat, no medication, whisked out of London in an Uber, his phone perhaps swapped for a burner phone for the duration). From Loughton, he may well have been transported (perhaps unexpectedly, perhaps unwillingly) out to an Eastern counties area. @ApparentlyInDenial posted a link to a PDF that shows very clearly how outer London boroughs map onto out-of-London destinations via fairly obvious transport routes.

If any of this is half way true, Richard will have turned out to be a bad recruitment decision. He may have been a 19yo student but he was still living with his mum. He may have been free to wander London at night because of her shifts, but he was loved, and missed in fairly short order. He may have been vulnerable in some senses but mainly because of a medical condition that would have been a practical problem fairly quickly. While he was (hypothetically) out of London for a couple of days, the search for him blew up into a huge media circus that will have totally compromised the line he was being coerced into working for. If he had resurfaced alive, the first thing that would have happened would have been an extremely extensive debrief with the police. As it is, his computers may well have revealed plenty. The area on the northeastern side of Epping Forest where this body has been found is a notorious site for murders and body dumps, many of them gang or organised crime related. It's a short hop from the M25/M11 interchange to the Wake Arms roundabout.

To me, this makes sense. It makes as much sense as suicide, and more sense than travelling for miles to die in a forest you've never been to and your body not being found for two weeks even though it's in a place that's well used by hikers, fishermen and dog walkers. If you think it's far-fetched, do some reading about county lines, which won't be time wasted even if it turns out to have no bearing on what happened to Richard in the end (especially if you have children of your own).

It goes without saying this is pure speculation, hypothetical and JMO etc. Also, to be clear, I see Richard as exploited in this picture, not in any sense a bad actor. But hopefully it goes some way to explaining the thinking of those of us who are favouring foul play over suicide.

Hopefully we'll know more facts soon, or at least eventually.

JMO, MOO
 
I have followed along without commenting until now. I am thinking suicide and the remote location to me says he didn't want to be found and/or didn't want to be discovered in the act and saved. I also think he wanted to go in a beautiful place alone, not a city canal and not at home where his mother would have to find him.

Maybe he didn't wear his coat because he didn't like his coat and planned his final outfit a certain way. Sometimes finding logic in a suicide is a frustrating endeavor as it doesn't make sense except to the individual. We may never know why he didn't wear his coat on a chilly evening.

jmo
 
I have followed along without commenting until now. I am thinking suicide and the remote location to me says he didn't want to be found and/or didn't want to be discovered in the act and saved. I also think he wanted to go in a beautiful place alone, not a city canal and not at home where his mother would have to find him.

Maybe he didn't wear his coat because he didn't like his coat and planned his final outfit a certain way. Sometimes finding logic in a suicide is a frustrating endeavor as it doesn't make sense except to the individual. We may never know why he didn't wear his coat on a chilly evening.

jmo

There aren't many 14-19 year old Londoners who would have put a coat on in March; it's just "not cool." He could have just had a thermal t-shirt or other layers under his hoodie.

I get what you're saying about it being difficult to make sense of a suicide sometimes, but if you look into what serious experts say about this - profilers and search and rescue experts - you'll see that outdoor suicide by a male, 99% of the time, would happen by hanging and in a natural space they are already familiar with from happier times.
 
I'm one of the people who thinks foul play.

When the story broke, his mother was mainly talking in terms of struggling with remote learning and having had to shield for so long, and I was thinking in terms of suicide too, although obviously I hoped he'd be found alive. But then the detail about Loughton broke, which makes no sense in the context of suicide, particularly since there was no connection - not a favourite place to visit as a child, for instance. I get that it shows up as a popular suicide spot if you google it, but why would he google it? If he were to google, say, 'private suicide site london', it doesn't come up at all. He lives literally next to a major canal with plenty of secluded stretches in walking distance of home. If he'd googled 'grand union canal suicide', he'd have found plenty of hits for that. If he wanted to be sure that his mother wouldn't be the one to find him, he had no need to go to Epping Forest.

But what really made me recalibrate my thinking was the CCTV from the Victoria Tavern. It was the first moving image we'd seen and his body language is confident and purposeful imo. I was still assuming suicide at that point, but the footage made me realise I was thinking on those lines for no better reason than that it was an argument I'd already made. It was around that time that the narrative from home changed to one of online grooming, a new set of friends, a prearranged meeting etc and the narrative from the police became 'you're not in trouble'. I presume this also coincided with the police having done a preliminary investigation of his computer/s,

There have been some compelling posts on this thread about the possibility of an organised crime connection, probably county lines. If this sounds far fetched, well, it's not. Kids and young people are sucked every day of the week into couriering and selling drugs, thinking it will be easy money and then finding they've got no choice but to go places they don't want to go and do things they don't want to do. The bait is money but that quickly becomes threats, abductions and violence. Richard could well have been recruited online during lockdown - many have been. It's been speculated he might have gone out at night before, but this trip to Loughton might have been a step up that he wasn't expecting (hence no coat, no medication, whisked out of London in an Uber, his phone perhaps swapped for a burner phone for the duration). From Loughton, he may well have been transported (perhaps unexpectedly, perhaps unwillingly) out to an Eastern counties area. @ApparentlyInDenial posted a link to a PDF that shows very clearly how outer London boroughs map onto out-of-London destinations via fairly obvious transport routes.

If any of this is half way true, Richard will have turned out to be a bad recruitment decision. He may have been a 19yo student but he was still living with his mum. He may have been free to wander London at night because of her shifts, but he was loved, and missed in fairly short order. He may have been vulnerable in some senses but mainly because of a medical condition that would have been a practical problem fairly quickly. While he was (hypothetically) out of London for a couple of days, the search for him blew up into a huge media circus that will have totally compromised the line he was being coerced into working for. If he had resurfaced alive, the first thing that would have happened would have been an extremely extensive debrief with the police. As it is, his computers may well have revealed plenty. The area on the northeastern side of Epping Forest where this body has been found is a notorious site for murders and body dumps, many of them gang or organised crime related. It's a short hop from the M25/M11 interchange to the Wake Arms roundabout.

To me, this makes sense. It makes as much sense as suicide, and more sense than travelling for miles to die in a forest you've never been to and your body not being found for two weeks even though it's in a place that's well used by hikers, fishermen and dog walkers. If you think it's far-fetched, do some reading about county lines, which won't be time wasted even if it turns out to have no bearing on what happened to Richard in the end (especially if you have children of your own).

It goes without saying this is pure speculation, hypothetical and JMO etc. Also, to be clear, I see Richard as exploited in this picture, not in any sense a bad actor. But hopefully it goes some way to explaining the thinking of those of us who are favouring foul play over suicide.

Hopefully we'll know more facts soon, or at least eventually.

JMO, MOO

I lean towards this idea as well. I think his mother's words about being groomed are quite important - the county line trade is known for targeting vulnerable young adults.

Speaking from personal experience - I find it strange that someone would travel so far, for so long to drown themselves in a pond. Suicides are often impulsively done even when someone has been "planning" it or feeling suicidal for a while. To travel for hours to an unknown destination seems odd.
We are now coming to the end of lockdown and Richard knew that. Seems strange to do this now after he would have been shielding for a year and coming to the end of living like that and going back to normal, seeing his friends again etc.

Can we assume he may not have ordered the taxi? I think this is plausible unless it has been stated he ordered it himself?
If he's been groomed, maybe he left coat and medication behind thinking that he would only be out locally for a few hours - he probably wasn't even planning on going anywhere near Loughton. He thought things would be done closer to home, then is told he has to get in a taxi to Loughton, but he'll be home soon, so he complies. Then something goes wrong out there...

It's been said that Richard was "struggling" but that in itself doesn't mean he was suicidal. Struggling can mean vulnerable too - and people do things which are out of character when they are in that position. He could have been groomed and taken a risk that night which led to his death (if body found is confirmed to be his).

Ofc this is all JMO - but I personally think this makes more sense than suicide at this stage. No matter what's happened it's all incredibly sad and I really feel for his poor family.
 
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Speaking from personal experience of feeling suicidal in the past - I find it strange that someone would travel so far, for so long to drown themselves in a pond. It just doesn't make much sense to me. Suicides are often impulsively done even when someone has been "planning" it or feeling suicidal for a while. To travel for hours to an unknown destination seems odd.
Also, we are now coming to the end of lockdown and Richard knew that. Seems strange to do this now after he would have been shielding for a year and coming to the end of living like that and going back to normal, seeing his friends again etc.

Can we assume he may not have ordered the taxi? I think this is plausible unless it has been stated he ordered it himself?
If he's been groomed, maybe he left coat and medication behind thinking that he would only be out locally for a few hours - he probably wasn't even planning on going anywhere near Loughton. He thought things would be done closer to home, then is told he has to get in a taxi to Loughton, but he'll be home soon, so he complies. Then something goes wrong out there...

It's been said that Richard was "struggling" but that in itself doesn't mean he was suicidal. Struggling can mean vulnerable too - and people do things which are out of character when they are in that position. He could have been groomed and taken a risk that night which led to his death (if body found is confirmed to be his).

Ofc this is all JMO - but I personally think this makes more sense than suicide at this stage. No matter what's happened it's all incredibly sad and I really feel for his poor family.

I’m not really sure what I think. But it’s a good point you make about him thinking he was going to be staying local, maybe the initial W2 area, then finding himself going on somewhere unexpectedly. It’s entirely plausible with the lack of belongings/coat.

But likewise, suicide is entirely plausible too. It’s all such a mystery that it’s really hard to wrap your head around.
 
Richard Okorogheye: 'I can't sleep or eat' says best friend of missing student as family await identification of body

The best friend of missing student Richard Okorogheye says she still hasn't processed his disappearance as family and friends await formal identification of a body discovered in Epping Forest.

Hala Mohamed, 18, has known Richard all her life, living in the same apartment building in Ladbroke Grove and attending secondary school and sixth form together.

"This is the worst feeling ever," Hala told My London.

'I can't sleep or eat' says best friend of missing student Richard Okorogheye
 

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There aren't many 14-19 year old Londoners who would have put a coat on in March; it's just "not cool." He could have just had a thermal t-shirt or other layers under his hoodie.

I get what you're saying about it being difficult to make sense of a suicide sometimes, but if you look into what serious experts say about this - profilers and search and rescue experts - you'll see that outdoor suicide by a male, 99% of the time, would happen by hanging and in a natural space they are already familiar with from happier times.

If he was acutely suicidal in that time in W2 it could be him weighting up alternatives of how to do it. There has been nothing released to suggest he has previous suicide attempts so it could have taken him time to figure out what his method was going to be. It'd be interesting to know if he spent any large amounts of time on bridges, train platforms, around the Ponds in Hyde Park etc.
 
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I have followed along without commenting until now. I am thinking suicide and the remote location to me says he didn't want to be found and/or didn't want to be discovered in the act and saved. I also think he wanted to go in a beautiful place alone, not a city canal and not at home where his mother would have to find him.

Maybe he didn't wear his coat because he didn't like his coat and planned his final outfit a certain way. Sometimes finding logic in a suicide is a frustrating endeavor as it doesn't make sense except to the individual. We may never know why he didn't wear his coat on a chilly evening.

jmo

I do wonder what Richard expected his mum's reaction to be when he ignored the call, did whatever with his phone and obviously wasn't going to respond to knocking on his door. Was her coming home at 9pm and him being asleep and not responding to knocking or his phone so common that she wasn't likely to question it seriously until morning or could he have had a realistic expectation that his mum would be reporting him missing that night? If he believed he could be in the process of being reported missing could some of his actions that appear odd be a result of that e.g. getting a taxi to expedite his arrival and less likely to bump into Police or be tracked on camera if he had some naive belief about how fast the Police would respond.
 
Confirmation of the identity of the individual found in the pond seems to be taking rather longer than Richard’s mother (and the Superintendent leading the case) implied it would. Any thoughts on why this might be?
 
I do wonder what Richard expected his mum's reaction to be when he ignored the call, did whatever with his phone and obviously wasn't going to respond to knocking on his door. Was her coming home at 9pm and him being asleep and not responding to knocking or his phone so common that she wasn't likely to question it seriously until morning or could he have had a realistic expectation that his mum would be reporting him missing that night? If he believed he could be in the process of being reported missing could some of his actions that appear odd be a result of that e.g. getting a taxi to expedite his arrival and less likely to bump into Police or be tracked on camera if he had some naive belief about how fast the Police would respond.
His mum explained in the detailed interview she was working a night shift that night, left home to go to work before Richard left, cooked for him when she returned the next morning, and she didn't realise he was missing until his room was broken into the following evening.
 
His mum explained in the detailed interview she was working a night shift that night, left home to go to work before Richard left, cooked for him when she returned the next morning, and she didn't realise he was missing until his room was broken into the following evening.

I had read that but then I read this: Richard Okorogheye: The missing teenager from west London

"She returned home from a nursing shift at around 9pm and assumed he was in his room.

She cooked him a meal but found he was not there when she knocked on his door and he did not answer his telephone.

The alarm was raised after a locksmith helped her gain entry to the room which was empty but Richard’s wallet, bus pass and bank card were left behind."

Both can't be true? Strange.
 
I had read that but then I read this: Richard Okorogheye: The missing teenager from west London

"She returned home from a nursing shift at around 9pm and assumed he was in his room.

She cooked him a meal but found he was not there when she knocked on his door and he did not answer his telephone.

The alarm was raised after a locksmith helped her gain entry to the room which was empty but Richard’s wallet, bus pass and bank card were left behind."

Both can't be true?
The first reports were incorrect. That was what was released at first and few newspapers have corrected it since she went on air with her detailed interview.
 
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