UK - Scarlett Vickers (14) stabbed to death at home in Darlington. Parents charged with murder (5 July '24)

[Parker Knoll]

I'm aiming to keep a particularly open mind while following this one

Yes - I agree.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I wonder if the two parents' stories differ so much that LE believes it couldn't have been an accident, or the stories would have had more similarity? I guess time will tell.

 

[BreadnLumpit]

My point was
that the parents were charged with MURDER, meaning intentionally killing.

The poster I quoted wrote
it might have been an argument in the kitchen.

So
I answered that in such case it would be:
- an accidental tragedy
- manslaughter

If they are charged with murder
there seemed to be no accident/argument.

But
Intentional murder.
And 1 precise stab.

I hope I'm understood now.

JMO

My colleague was also charged with murder. Even though the police and CPS were aware of the circumstances.

After an argument in the kitchen went horribly wrong.

The victim died from a single stab wound.

I'm just saying that we don't know how what has happened, happened and that IMO we should not be drawing inferences of intent or guilt from the fact that there was a single stab wound, or assuming that there was no argument because the charge is murder.

 

[Inthedetails]

My colleague was also charged with murder. Even though the police and CPS were aware of the circumstances.

After an argument in the kitchen went horribly wrong.

The victim died from a single stab wound.

I'm just saying that we don't know how what has happened, happened and that IMO we should not be drawing inferences of intent or guilt from the fact that there was a single stab wound, or assuming that there was no argument because the charge is murder.

I'm inclined to think an argument in the kitchen gone wrong, but that wouldn't warrant a murder charge. And one stab wound implies one stabber, yet two people are charged with murder.

Was there time for the victim to tell LE what happened and that is what lead to the charges?

RIP to Scarlett. Always heartbreaking to lose a young person.

jmo

 

[BreadnLumpit]

I'm inclined to think an argument in the kitchen gone wrong, but that wouldn't warrant a murder charge. And one stab wound implies one stabber, yet two people are charged with murder.

Was there time for the victim to tell LE what happened and that is what lead to the charges?

RIP to Scarlett. Always heartbreaking to lose a young person.

jmo

We really don't know what has happened here yet. Yes there's only one stab wound - but what if both parents are claiming to be guilty? One because they stabbed her in the heat of an argument and want to take full punishment for it, whatever the circumstances, and the other one to misguidedly protect the other.

People do sometimes do and say inexplicable things and until more facts come out we are just casting about wildly for an explanation.

I'm keeping an open mind for now - perhaps the bail hearings will shed a little more light on things.

jmo

 

[Dotta]

We really don't know what has happened here yet. Yes there's only one stab wound - but what if both parents are claiming to be guilty? One because they stabbed her in the heat of an argument and want to take full punishment for it, whatever the circumstances, and the other one to misguidedly protect the other.

People do sometimes do and say inexplicable things and until more facts come out we are just casting about wildly for an explanation.

I'm keeping an open mind for now - perhaps the bail hearings will shed a little more light on things.

jmo

It might also have been some mental health issue on the part of the stabber.

JMO

 

[Cinister09]

Just want to drop this from the CPS website regarding charges of murder etc.

"Murder
Subject to three exceptions (which constitute partial defences to murder, and result in a conviction for manslaughter) the crime of murder is committed, where a person:

• of sound mind and discretion (sane)
• unlawfully kills (not self-defence or other justified killing)
• any reasonable creature (a human being)
• in being (born alive and breathing through its own lungs)
• under the King's Peace (not in wartime)
• with intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm (in contrast to the offence of attempted murder, where only intent to kill will suffice)"

It's usually quite tricky for a murder charge to be brought against someone. They would need solid evidence for CPS to allow the charge.

A single stab wound can easily be fatal and doesn't need to be precise at all.
The location of the stab wound on Scarlett has been quoted as "a single stab wound to the chest" - the chest is a large area and houses a lot of vital organs and different veins etc - therefore a more dangerous place for a knife to enter.
Again though, the aim for this doesn't need to be precise.

The Telegraph reports there was a confrontation with her parents but doesn't specify if it was between them or her and them, therefore we know there was a confrontation but that is all so far.
It is behind a paywall, however the top line is visible and states;
"A 14-year-old girl was stabbed to death at home after a confrontation with her parents, a court has heard..."
The same is reported via MSN;
"A 14-year-old girl was stabbed to death at home after a confrontation with her parents, a court has heard."

IMO I feel like it's possible she wasn't the intended victim in the situation.

As someone who grew up in a house where there was DV and many times got in the middle of the parents, I feel like she may have tried to break up the argument.
Maybe one of the parents grabbed the knife in the heat of the moment and this is the consequences of those actions.
It wouldn't be unheard of a child getting hurt/killed because they tried to protect one parent or diffuse a situation.

Just a thought from my brain.

 

[Cinister09]

It might also have been some mental health issue on the part of the stabber.

JMO

If there were a mental health issue involved it would usually be charged as Manslaughter as per CPS charging.

"Manslaughter
Manslaughter is primarily committed in one of three ways:

1. Killing with the intent for murder but where a partial defence applies, namely loss of control, diminished responsibility or killing pursuant to a suicide pact.
2. Conduct that was grossly negligent given the risk of death, and did kill ("gross negligence manslaughter"); and
3. Conduct taking the form of an unlawful act involving a danger of some harm that resulted in death ("unlawful and dangerous act manslaughter").

The term "voluntary manslaughter" is commonly used to describe manslaughter falling within (1) while (2) and (3) are referred to as "involuntary manslaughter"."

For Diminished Responsibility;

"The defendant must prove the following four elements:

1. the defendant was suffering from an abnormality of mental functioning
2. if so, whether it had arisen from a recognised medical condition
3. if so, whether it had substantially impaired the defendant's ability either to understand the nature of their conduct or to form a rational judgment or to exercise self-control (or any combination)
4. if so, whether it provided an explanation for their conduct: section 2 Homicide Act 1957 as amended by section 52 Coroners and Justice Act 2009"

IMO I think the charges will change once the investigation progresses.
Unfortunately we don't know much at this stage, just the tidbits offered by the media.

 

[Dotta]

A single stab wound can easily be fatal and doesn't need to be precise at all.
The location of the stab wound on Scarlett has been quoted as "a single stab wound to the chest" - the chest is a large area and houses a lot of vital organs and different veins etc - therefore a more dangerous place for a knife to enter.
Again though, the aim for this doesn't need to be precise.

I imagine a stab to a chest area must be very forceful in order to kill.

In opposition to stomach area or a neck which are not protected by bones.

That's why I used the word "precise".

And a knife cannot be a simple kitchen knife a person uses during a meal.

But, if a stabber was in rage, anything is possible.
Although, an enraged person usually swings a knife,
wounding face, arms, etc.

Besides, both parents are charged.
If one parent was a victim of DV and the girl was tragically "caught into" an argument between them,
I suppose only one person would be charged.

JMO

 

[Cinister09]

I imagine a stab to a chest area must be very forceful in order to kill.

In opposition to stomach area or a neck which are not protected by bones.

And a knife cannot be a simple kitchen knife a person uses during a meal.

But, if a stabber was in rage, anything is possible.

JMO

Not necessarily, bone only covers some areas within the chest cavity. You can get a blade between the ribs, under the ribcage (if you go from below up) and then also the sternum isn't as solid as you think, it's composed of highly vascular tissue which is covered with a thin layer of compact bone.

A large force is not required to stab someone in the chest to kill them - hitting an artery, the jugular vein, the heart or a lung would be enough. You can access the heart between the 4th and 5th rib if you angle correctly.

Image from here.


You can stab someone with a standard kitchen knife if you use enough force, just like you can stab someone with a fork (my brother was stabbed with a fork).

Take a moment to browse this study regarding Piercing the surface with different household tools they test 12 items, including a standard kitchen style knife. There are various studies about different knives and force required to cause injury/penetrate the skin.

For example this one was a man who stabbed himself with a butter knife.