UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

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I am not accusing him of killing her just I believe he is the mystery behind the diary. I think he is the most logical person to have taken it.


MOO
Yes, according to DV AL said they (he) never went into the PoW, why change your story? Okay it’s 30+ years on, but that’s a big change. Then there’s the whole storming out of the DV interview saying “you’ll never find her, no one will”.
What’s that about, it suggests he knows more than he’s let on and he was disappointed that DV hadn’t found out what he knows?
Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but I wouldn’t have expected that much emotion (under the circumstances) over 30 years after the event.
 
It's possible but why the cheque book and postcard as well, and why bother returning them, even via the PoW?


It would of happened at the POW as they had been there together and there are mixed reports on when they were last there together.
 
But if AL was going to swipe her diary to check up on her, why bother giving it back? Why not just chuck it in the trash after satisfying his curiosity?
 
But if AL was going to swipe her diary to check up on her, why bother giving it back? Why not just chuck it in the trash after satisfying his curiosity?



You could say that about anybody who took it - why would you anybody take the stuff and return it and not only that a diary but didn’t take cash?



you don’t have to agree but I think those items taken were personal items and wasn’t a stranger as a stranger would take cash not personal items like a postcard and a diary.
 
I am not accusing him of killing her just I believe he is the mystery behind the diary. I think he is the most logical person to have taken it.


MOO
Yes, according to DV AL said they (he) never went into the PoW, why change your story? Okay it’s 30+ years on, but that’s a big change. Then there’s the whole storming out of the DV interview saying “you’ll never find her, no one will”.
What’s that about, it suggests he knows more than he’s let on and he was disappointed that DV hadn’t found out what he knows?
Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but I wouldn’t have expected that much emotion (under the circumstances) over 30 years after the event.
You could say that about anybody who took it - why would you anybody take the stuff and return it and not only that a diary but didn’t take cash?



you don’t have to agree but I think those items taken were personal items and wasn’t a stranger as a stranger would take cash not personal items like a postcard and a diary.
It does seem possible that if the diary etc was taken it was to read it’s content.
However, it could be that SJL stopped at the PoW to call AL because she didn’t want to be overheard by her flat mate.
The table is close to the phone box and she had to wait for the phone to become free. Given what happened over that weekend AL would most likely have been very forthright with his views.
SJL may then have been upset and left in a hurry leaving her things on the table.
This may explain AL’s emotional response to the DV interview, his last words to SJL being harsh ones and he’s never been able to truly get over that fact.
That’s just one possibility.
 
There is zero mention of Suzy going out on Sunday night though when she got back from her mums house?

Suzy and her flat mate chatted for ages I thought and then she went to bed?
 
There is zero mention of Suzy going out on Sunday night though when she got back from her mums house?

Suzy and her flat mate chatted for ages I thought and then she went to bed?
I think that's how the Friday versus Sunday confusion has arisen. SJL was out and about around there on Friday but not on Sunday, so that must be when she lost her stuff, goes the reasoning.

Which is fair enough, except that AL reckons there was a call about 10.15pm on Sunday. As she went from the beach, to her parents, then home to spend the evening in, and no call at home was mentioned by her lodger, the implication is she made that call from elsewhere. Depending on where in East Sheen her parents lived, she would have got home by driving east along the Upper Richmond Road and turning left at the PoW into Oxford Road. It seems plausible she stopped en route at the PoW to make her phone call, possibly so the lodger wouldn't overhear.

When you pick it apart, there seems to be no way for her to make an assignation at the pub then go home after making a call during that same meeting. As AL points out it was a pretty mediocre pub anyway and not a haunt of theirs. It makes more sense for her to have stopped off expressly for that call because it is literally en route between two places we know she was at. If AL's recollection is right and she called him around 10.15, that's just before closing time at the pub. By the time she got home, the pub would have shut, so she could not have gone back to look.

If instead she met AL there, and he pinched her stuff while she was away getting in a round or whatever, first it must have been a pretty short meeting for her still to be home in time to natter with the lodger, and second, he must be lying about there having been a phone call with him. I tend to think he's not lying and that there was a call to him, from there, because her stuff shows she was there. But to call him she surely didn't need her diary, because his would surely have been one of a few phone numbers she would have had in her head and probably not needed to look up. The question then is, if she stopped off just to make a phone call from the box next to the pub that she didn't want the lodger to overhear, why didn't she just leave her diary etc in her car?

AL's reason to nick her stuff can only be to read the diary. If he nicked it off her at Mossop's on Friday and read it over the next day or two, why would it turn up next door, at the PoW, on Sunday? He left Worthing later than she did - would he even have been back in time to have met her at that pub? And why bother to return it anyway? If it were genuinely lost and found, a kindly passer-by might hand it in, but why would he hand it in?
 
Just thinking about the CV situation, presumably DV has anonymised him because if DV's hunch is correct and SJL is under that pub floor, there is no way CV isn't implicated. From 12 noon he was in charge of the pub, and SJL was last seen alive and well after that, at 12.40. If she died and her body was concealed at that pub, there is absolutely no way you can do this without the landlord knowing. Even if someone else killed her, he's still aided and abetted some fairly serious crimes: failing to report / register a death, preventing lawful burial, disposal of a corpse to prevent a coroner's inquest, and so on.

DV suggests that maybe there was an accident. In that case, the obvious question is, on what planet is it a good idea to hide the body of someone who does in an accident? The only answer I can think of is, if the body shows signs that she died resisting an assault - defensive injuries, damage to her underwear etc. You could claim she accidentally fell down the cellar steps looking for her diary, but you can't very well say this was an accident if she was being assaulted at the time and you were obviously the person who was trying to assault her.

So let's say the pub is actually closed (was it definitely open?). His partner, KF, goes out for the day at say just after the stocktake at 12. She will not be back until evening opening at 6, so she does not know that SJL called at 12.40 and brought the appointment forward. Hypothetically, CV spontaneously decides to attack SJL when he gets a look at her. She dies of it at about 1pm, so he locates and moves her car, plants the 'right ruck' story with a cabbie, gets the Tube back then hides her body as DV describes. He then carries on as normal like the 15-year-old killer DV describes at the start of his book.

KF gets back at 6 and is not expecting SJL to have been yet, because she still thinks she's coming at or after 6. Next day the disappearance is all over the press and CV's partner realises the missing woman was supposed to be coming to the pub. As KF knows this, CV can't just conceal it, so he calls the police and says she never turned up. That's all he says.

What he does not yet know, because the press conference has not yet happened, is that the police have fallen hook, line and sinker for the Mr Kipper / Shorrolds misdirection. This is a huge stroke of luck, but when they come back and re-interview him a year later, he now realises he needs an alibi that shows he was nowhere near Shorrolds or Stevenage at the time. Ideally, he needs not to have only just come up with this alibi; he needs it to be of long standing. So he tells the police that there were two phone calls for her that afternoon, and he handed the numbers over a year before. These calls would have placed him at the pub at the dangerous time. It's a backdated alibi. The police have no recollection or record of any such bit of paper, but they decide to believe CV anyway over their own officers. After all, it was Mr Kipper who did it.

The calls he claims to have received are odd. They sound like two someones knew she was headed for the pub, but not when. Why would he say that? This sounds like several people thought she wasn't going to Shorrolds at all. Why plant that suspicion? Did he come up with it off the cuff under pressure? Perhaps CV figures the police will figure that he male caller was Mr Kipper, trying to find out when she's going to be missed. But the female caller? Who actually took that call? If it was CV it may not have happened, but was it CV or was it KF?

Meanwhile KF somehow gets an inkling of what happened. They split up. When DV turns up to interview her, it's bad news. He could be an associate of CV, who is homicidal. But if SJL is found, CV is her alibi that she wasn't involved, because he has said she was out all afternoon. So either way, she can't give him up.

This version relies on CV being a repeat offender. One of the Ripper murders was an off the cuff spontaneous murder; he was on his way home, saw a suitable victim, and murdered her. Could this be the same? Could CV be capable of essentially raping someone on sight, having done so before, then acting (by his standards) normally (JC certainly was, FWIW...)?
 
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Just thinking about the CV situation, presumably DV has anonymised him because if DV's hunch is correct and SJL is under that pub floor, there is no way CV isn't implicated. From 12 noon he was in charge of the pub, and SJL was last seen alive and well after that, at 12.40. If she died and her body was concealed at that pub, there is absolutely no way you can do this without the landlord knowing. Even if someone else killed her, he's still aided and abetted some fairly serious crimes: failing to report / register a death, preventing lawful burial, disposal of a corpse to prevent a coroner's inquest, and so on.

DV suggests that maybe there was an accident. In that case, the obvious question is, on what planet is it a good idea to hide the body of someone who does in an accident? The only answer I can think of is, if the body shows signs that she died resisting an assault - defensive injuries, damage to her underwear etc. You could claim she accidentally fell down the cellar steps looking for her diary, but you can't very well say this was an accident if she was being assaulted at the time and you were obviously the person who was trying to assault her.

So let's say the pub is actually closed (was it definitely open?). His partner, KF, goes out for the day at say just after the stocktake at 12. She will not be back until evening opening at 6, so she does not know that SJL called at 12.40 and brought the appointment forward. Hypothetically, CV spontaneously decides to attack SJL when he gets a look at her. She dies of it at about 1pm, so he locates and moves her car, plants the 'right ruck' story with a cabbie, gets the Tube back then hides her body as DV describes. He then carries on as normal like the 15-year-old killer DV describes at the start of his book.

KF gets back at 6 and is not expecting SJL to have been yet, because she still thinks she's coming at or after 6. Next day the disappearance is all over the press and CV's partner realises the missing woman was supposed to be coming to the pub. As KF knows this, CV can't just conceal it, so he calls the police and says she never turned up. That's all he says.

What he does not yet know, because the press conference has not yet happened, is that the police have fallen hook, line and sinker for the Mr Kipper / Shorrolds misdirection. This is a huge stroke of luck, but when they come back and re-interview him a year later, he now realises he needs an alibi that shows he was nowhere near Shorrolds or Stevenage at the time. Ideally, he needs not to have only just come up with this alibi; he needs it to be of long standing. So he tells the police that there were two phone calls for her that afternoon, and he handed the numbers over a year before. These calls would have placed him at the pub at the dangerous time. It's a backdated alibi. The police have no recollection or record of any such bit of paper, but they decide to believe CV anyway over their own officers. After all, it was Mr Kipper who did it.

The calls he claims to have received are odd. They sound like two someones knew she was headed for the pub, but not when. Why would he say that? This sounds like several people thought she wasn't going to Shorrolds at all. Why plant that suspicion? Did he come up with it off the cuff under pressure? Perhaps CV figures the police will figure that he male caller was Mr Kipper, trying to find out when she's going to be missed. But the female caller? Who actually took that call? If it was CV it may not have happened, but was it CV or was it KF?

Meanwhile KF somehow gets an inkling of what happened. They split up. When DV turns up to interview her, it's bad news. He could be an associate of CV, who is homicidal. But if SJL is found, CV is her alibi that she wasn't involved, because he has said she was out all afternoon. So either way, she can't give him up.

This version relies on CV being a repeat offender. One of the Ripper murders was an off the cuff spontaneous murder; he was on his way home, saw a suitable victim, and murdered her. Could this be the same? Could CV be capable of essentially raping someone on sight, having done so before, then acting (by his standards) normally (JC certainly was, FWIW...)?

Good narrative, maybe this is why DV says something like "god know what he's been unto in the meantime"? If you take a look at disappearances in the North Yorkshire area you'll find more that a few, some have been solved, others not, I'd think DV will have taken a look at these are this is what generated his comment.

Has anyone else looked at disappearances in the North Yorkshire area?
 
The phone calls to the POW for me are a sticking point as CV has absolutely zero reason to make up them phone calls. Also the phone calls makes zero sense which is why I believe they happened as that’s not something you make up. They are simply to random to be false.


MOO
 
The phone calls to the POW for me are a sticking point as CV has absolutely zero reason to make up them phone calls. Also the phone calls makes zero sense which is why I believe they happened as that’s not something you make up. They are simply to random to be false.


MOO
Well JC (with SB) made her phone work and say she was ill. So that’s one possibility, the other is that some less than friendly friends were after her and called the PoW.
With the second option the timing of the calls is important, they put a time on when SJL may have disappeared.
If genuine it indicated the they were looking for her during the afternoon, and that maybe she was car jacked in Whittingstall Road before they could get to her.
 
That would require her to have been targeted by two completely independent attackers on the same afternoon. Seems a bit of a stretch.

If CV simply needed an alibi, he could have made up any number of phone calls from anywhere, to prove he'd been at the pub all day. A year later, nobody's going to know whether they were really made or not. He could say he spoke to the gas company, to the brewery, to anyone. They wouldn't be able to confirm the calls a year later, but it's not CV's fault the police took a year to check (would go the reasoning).

The complicating factor is that he only needs an alibi if he's implicated - and if she is hidden under the floor of the pub he was managing, he's implicated.

It makes me wonder if he was trying to implicate the imminently bankrupt guy and his wife after the fact. This would require him to know of them, of course.
 
That would require her to have been targeted by two completely independent attackers on the same afternoon. Seems a bit of a stretch.

If CV simply needed an alibi, he could have made up any number of phone calls from anywhere, to prove he'd been at the pub all day. A year later, nobody's going to know whether they were really made or not. He could say he spoke to the gas company, to the brewery, to anyone. They wouldn't be able to confirm the calls a year later, but it's not CV's fault the police took a year to check (would go the reasoning).

The complicating factor is that he only needs an alibi if he's implicated - and if she is hidden under the floor of the pub he was managing, he's implicated.

It makes me wonder if he was trying to implicate the imminently bankrupt guy and his wife after the fact. This would require him to know of them, of course.
Yes these two pop up frequently in this story and yet remain under the radar.
It’s entirely possible that they made the calls to the PoW because they were at Shorrolds Road and SJL didn’t turn up.
That would mean they knew she was supposed to be going there, maybe after calling her office.
So on the basis that CV is telling the truth then SJL was abducted early on and never made the PoW.
I know DV says JC had an alibi, however, his sister thinks he’s guilty and JC has a track record of making up alibis when under pressure.
While there’s no actual evidence against him, but then again without a body there’s no evidence against CV.
 
JC gave an alibi when first interviewed about SJL but the police failed to verify it. When they were first fitting him up for this 14 years later, the people he named had all died, so the police decided he therefore didn't have an alibi.

The persistence of the JC myth is genuinely fascinating. There's literally no evidence against him whatsoever other than the police's suppositious belief that he looks like one of the sketches (though not much like the other) of "Mr Kipper". JC has never been put on an identity parade to validate this. The effect even so of the police saying he did it is so powerful that even while agreeing there was no viewing or Mr Kipper, that SJL never went to 37SR, and that she was perhaps abducted unwitnessed from somewhere else entirely, people still think it was probably JC just the same! He might not have been in Shorrolds Road, but in that case he must have been in Whittingstall!

This absolutely guarantees that if he ever were put on trial he'd get off. His defence would argue, correctly, that the police have made a fair trial impossible.

If DV's hypothesis were to be followed up, the pub or railway embankment searched, and SJL found, he's presumably counting on this discovery also producing evidence of how she died. The gap in his book, to the average reader, is that DV goes from deducing that SJL did not go to 37SR, to inferring that she went to the PoW instead; and as that's where she went, that's where she died. DV has had to anonymise CV because if his theory is right and she's there, CV at least must know how she got there even if he didn't do it. But no reason is presented for why CV would kill her. He'd have to be a particularly dangerous and calculating criminal, who decided to rape and kill SJL the instant she turned up, and who then successfully covered it up - under time pressure and with potential witnesses nearby. She may have died accidentally, but it would be an accident to which he couldn't own up, and had to hide; which again points to some sort of assault. Or, and this is the only alternative I can think of, he assisted someone else to do these things.
 
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JC gave an alibi when first interviewed about SJL but the police failed to verify it. When they were first fitting him up for this 14 years later, the people he named had all died, so the police decided he therefore didn't have an alibi.

The persistence of the JC myth is genuinely fascinating. There's literally no evidence against him whatsoever other than the police's suppositious belief that he looks like one of the sketches (though not much like the other) of "Mr Kipper". JC has never been put on an identity parade to validate this. The effect even so of the police saying he did it is so powerful that even while agreeing there was no viewing or Mr Kipper, that SJL never went to 37SR, and that she was perhaps abducted unwitnessed from somewhere else entirely, people still think it was probably JC just the same! He might not have been in Shorrolds Road, but in that case he must have been in Whittingstall!

This absolutely guarantees that if he ever were put on trial he'd get off. His defence would argue, correctly, that the police have made a fair trial impossible.

If DV's hypothesis were to be followed up, the pub or railway embankment searched, and SJL found, he's presumably counting on this discovery also producing evidence of how she died. The gap in his book, to the average reader, is that DV goes from deducing that SJL did not go to 37SR, to inferring that she went to the PoW instead; and as that's where she went, that's where she died. DV has had to anonymise CV because if his theory is right and she's there, CV at least must know how she got there even if he didn't do it. But no reason is presented for why CV would kill her. He'd have to be a particularly dangerous and calculating criminal, who decided to rape and kill SJL the instant she turned up, and who then successfully covered it up - under time pressure and with potential witnesses nearby. She may have died accidentally, but it would be an accident to which he couldn't own up, and had to hide; which again points to some sort of assault. Or, and this is the only alternative I can think of, he assisted someone else to do these things.
That’s what makes this so interesting, no evidence against anyone and the only facts are that she left the office at about 12.40pm and her car was found by police at 10.00pm.
Absolutely nothing else to go on, the police won’t follow DV’s theory for (IMO) two reasons:
  1. They’ve already said JC did it, but we can’t prove it.
  2. If they follow DV and SJL turns up in or near the PoW JC will be paroled this year, and they don’t want that.
So my guess is that JC’s parole will be turned down and then maybe something will happen
 
The most plausible theory is usually the one that leaves the fewest loose ends in the evidence: inexplicable witness accounts, things people did that make no sense, etc.

In this instance there's no theory that's clearly superior to all the others, but the JC theory - given how it was arrived at - seems to be to be clearly the weakest.
 
So my guess is that JC’s parole will be turned down and then maybe something will happen
I am not sure how parole works, but isn't something like, a prisoner becomes eligible to apply for it after a certain time, and if it is denied, s/he is also told when s/he can reapply?

JC could be denied parole this year, but allowed to reapply next year. If the police's game is to keep bringing up SJL so as to keep him in jail, the "something" that happens could simply be another much-publicised, fruitless dig of some other place associated with JC, rather than any genuine attempt to investigate other hypotheses. Followed by another next year, and the year after, and so on. Recall that the police came back to life, and dug up his mother's garden, when they got wind of DV reinvestigating and possibly debunking their cherished JC narrative.

This in itself must further entrench the police view. Imagine if SJL now turns up under the PoW. Every single dig and inquiry associated with JC has been a total waste by the police of their time, despite a cogent case having been presented to them that she is under or near the PoW. So not only didn't they solve it, but they ignored that someone else had, and wasted police resources on trying to prove the guilt of someone there was ample reason to think had nothing to do with it.

That's as embarrassing as it gets. On balance, the best result for the police is thus for her not to turn up under the PoW.
 
I am not sure how parole works, but isn't something like, a prisoner becomes eligible to apply for it after a certain time, and if it is denied, s/he is also told when s/he can reapply?

JC could be denied parole this year, but allowed to reapply next year. If the police's game is to keep bringing up SJL so as to keep him in jail, the "something" that happens could simply be another much-publicised, fruitless dig of some other place associated with JC, rather than any genuine attempt to investigate other hypotheses. Followed by another next year, and the year after, and so on. Recall that the police came back to life, and dug up his mother's garden, when they got wind of DV reinvestigating and possibly debunking their cherished JC narrative.

This in itself must further entrench the police view. Imagine if SJL now turns up under the PoW. Every single dig and inquiry associated with JC has been a total waste by the police of their time, despite a cogent case having been presented to them that she is under or near the PoW. So not only didn't they solve it, but they ignored that someone else had, and wasted police resources on trying to prove the guilt of someone there was ample reason to think had nothing to do with it.

That's as embarrassing as it gets. On balance, the best result for the police is thus for her not to turn up under the PoW.
Spot on, as I understand it parole can denied if JC is suspected of committing other crimes he’s not be prosecuted for. On this basis he’s never going to get parole as long as DV is proven wrong or not proven correct.
 
The inconsistencies in CV's account are quite interesting. If he is to be believed, SJL made an arrangement either with him or his partner to come and pick up her diary much later, at around 6pm, but never turned up.

This cannot be true, because she had a viewing appointment elsewhere at that time - an appointment known about by her colleagues, and that was therefore clearly in her diary before the mysterious 12.45 at 37SR. CV cannot have known about this. He may have known about the 7pm tennis, because that might have been in the personal diary, but there can't have been a 6pm arrangement.

By the time he's reinterviewed a year later, he knows the police have swallowed the Kipper story, but still does not know about that 6pm conflict. So he maintains he was at the pub all day and received calls there to prove it, as this "proves" he wasn't the "James Galway" sighting. He further claims falsely to have given evidence of these calls to officers at the time. But he says SJL never came, consistent with his claim of a 6pm arrangement. In fact, if he was there all day, he must have been there when she came.
 
The inconsistencies in CV's account are quite interesting. If he is to be believed, SJL made an arrangement either with him or his partner to come and pick up her diary much later, at around 6pm, but never turned up.

This cannot be true, because she had a viewing appointment elsewhere at that time - an appointment known about by her colleagues, and that was therefore clearly in her diary before the mysterious 12.45 at 37SR. CV cannot have known about this. He may have known about the 7pm tennis, because that might have been in the personal diary, but there can't have been a 6pm arrangement.

By the time he's reinterviewed a year later, he knows the police have swallowed the Kipper story, but still does not know about that 6pm conflict. So he maintains he was at the pub all day and received calls there to prove it, as this "proves" he wasn't the "James Galway" sighting. He further claims falsely to have given evidence of these calls to officers at the time. But he says SJL never came, consistent with his claim of a 6pm arrangement. In fact, if he was there all day, he must have been there when she came.[/QUOTE
 
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