UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

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There was multiple teams involved in investigating this case and multiple reviews over the years.


1) So was they all completely incompetent over the years?
Yes.
2) The Met is now in some big conspiracy to cover up the real killer to save their pride?
Yes, but here specifically it's a small conspiracy of probably four or five influential individuals, enabled by a culture that does not admit error. Look at Whitehall 1212's posts: he demonstrated and admits no knowledge of the case at all, insists a priori the police got it right, then contradicts himself. That is the problem, right here.

Look also at Jean Charles de Menezes. He was killed in error but lies were told reflexively by the police: he was wearing a backpack, he was wearing a bulky jacket, and so on. All untrue, all trotted out to excuse it.
3) So is Suzy’s family also in this cover up as they also want nothing to do with DV and his pet theory?
SJL's family probably get pestered by a lot of cranks with crazy unsubstantiated pet theories. There has been a crank who lived in a house full of ferrets and thought it was John West, because Fred West's brother was called John and John West sells tinned fish and kippers are fish and Fred West killed people. There was the crank who thought it was Michael Sams. There was the crank who thought it was the Suffolk Strangler. There was the crank who thought it was JC because kipper ties and he drove a BMW a year later. That crank actually worked for the police. If I were in their shoes, I wouldn't engage either. I'd say Get back to me when someone's arrested.
4) Are we meant to believe 1000’s of different officers over a 30 year period all failed to spot CV was lying and the real killer?
It wasn't thousands. It was four or five, if that. CV handed over the chequebook and diary. A year later he claimed he'd handed those over, and that he'd also reported a couple of phone calls about SJL and given the officers the callers' numbers. There was no record of any of this. Either he was mistaken, or lying, or telling the truth and the two officers had screwed up. The police went with the first because look how embarrassing the other two are.

The officer who derailed the Ripper inquiry because he was taken in by the hoax tape seems to have been almost the only officer of hundreds who was. Unfortunately, he was the one in charge. It doesn't require "1000's" of officers to be wrong; it needs maybe four or five, and a cover-up culture.
 
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We don't know this. We don't actually know who spoke to SJL that morning. All we know is that someone at the PoW called SJL's bank and that her bank called SJL at work to tell her where her cheque book was. They would not give her phone number out to a pub, but they would give the pub's number to her. So probably she called the pub. We don't know who she spoke to, but if there was a 'last' person she spoke to, that says there was more than one call, and more than one person. Logically, there would only need to be two calls if one made, and the second changed, an arrangement. The first call was to arrange a pickup after work. The second call was because a viewing had been requested at 6pm, which clashed. She had tennis at 7pm, so those two dates wipe out the evening. If she needs her diary back that day, she has to reschedule. So she calls to cancel the 6pm visit and moves it up to right away.

We don't know who made the second call or who knew what was said.

She could not retrieve them after work; see above.

Cancelling a cheque book was a huge pain. Debit cards did not then exist, so if you needed to pay someone who didn't take credit cards (lots of businesses then did not - M&S didn't accept credit cards until 2000 and John Lewis / Waitrose only accepted their own until about the same time), you had to write a cheque. If it was up to £50, you presented a cheque guarantee card with the cheque, and the sales assistant wrote its number down on the back. You had to keep your cheque book and cheque card separate, so that thieves could not steal both at once, and write themselves cheques for £50 apparently guaranteed by your card.

If you lost your cheque book, you would wait a couple of weeks for a replacement to arrive. Meanwhile you would be constantly going to cashpoints to withdraw and carry around cash.

That's not what would happen, though; CV would not even be in court. If you defame someone, and they sue you for libel, they only have to show one thing, which is that what you said was defamatory i.e. there is a sting to the libel. Saying they murdered someone is defamatory, so they'd get their libel action. The presumption is that they're of good character. They don't have to appear in court or testify or defend themselves or prove you libelled them. You have to prove you didn't.

You have a very limited number of permissible ways to do so. One is that the defamatory statements are true. You have to prove they are. The party you have defamed does not have to prove they aren't.

Another is honest opinion; you're not saying that something is true but that based on a series of true facts (which again you have to prove are true), the canonical "reasonable person" might agree with your opinion. There are others, such as privilege (I am allowed to defame you to my own lawyer), etc but as the law stands none would apply here. So there would be no occasion when DV being sued for libel would get to cross-examine or challenge CV or anyone else.

The case would be impossible to defend without finding her body in or near the pub. This is why DV wants them searched. CV would probably not even need any money to bring it; some law firm would take it on for nothing upfront and a large slice of the inevitable damages. DV is no doubt of limited means but he's got a police pension, so that could be attacked, and then of course there's the publisher.

On the point about timings of DV's work, he is trying to show both that SJL could have gone to the PoW and that she could not have gone to 37SR. If she did the latter she can't have done the former. His meeting with KP, which established how keys were handled, was not until December 2019.

Look at any of Whitehall 1212's (generally fact-free) posts in this thread! Having failed to solve the crime, the police have decided that it fits JC and will not hear of any alternative.

If the case against JC were genuinely compelling, it would be less embarrassing for the police to admit it might be wrong. In fact it is ludicrously flimsy. They think JC is implicated by a sighting of a car he did not own (they just assume he had access to one); they never checked how many other sex offenders had been recently released from Wormwood Scrubs; they did not consider anyone a suspect who was not in Fulham that day, but they also can't place JC in Fulham, or even in London; the only "witness" did not say he saw SJL; the supposed likeness of JC to a pencil sketch was never tested in front of an ID parade; the guy who gave them the description also said he saw and then did not see SJL bundled into a car; the same witness described Mr Kipper as smartly dressed, slim and 25 to 30 then later described a podgy 44-year old as a dead ringer for Mr Kipper; the only witness who knew her and says she saw her is dismissed as wrong because her account doesn't fit the pet theory; and so on.




I am sure it’s been said multiple times the last person Suzy spoke to was the wife of CV at the POW before she left the office?



Thank you for taking the time to explain about the Cheque Book as this stuff I have zero experience of as my first bank card was in the 2000’s and don’t really remember cheques.
 
Thanks for the reply, it would indeed be good if things could be verified!
It would also be very interesting if DV did try and take his case to be tried in a Court Hearing
That’s not going to happen without a body, basically there’s no evidence against anyone regarding what happened to SJL.
It’s a shame that the media have condemned JC, CPS wouldn’t proceed against him and this media attention detracts from any other possible theory.
Let’s face is SJL left the office and was never seen again.
 
<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

I’d just like to say that the Met did (in a public statement) say they’d leave no stone unturned in an effort to bring the SJL case to a conclusion.
Now I know all about the constraints the police work under, however, this doesn’t stop them following other (possibly remote) alternative lines of enquiry other than JC.
Sometimes you have to accept that there might just be another possibility other than JC.
 
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That’s not going to happen without a body, basically there’s no evidence against anyone regarding what happened to SJL.
It’s a shame that the media have condemned JC, CPS wouldn’t proceed against him and this media attention detracts from any other possible theory.
Let’s face is SJL left the office and was never seen again.
It's important to be clear on why the CPS did not authorise charges against JC.

Whilst the CPS said that the police had left no stone unturned, their conclusion was that the circumstantial evidence against JC was not sufficient to provide a realistic prospect of conviction.

The height of the bar that needs to be crossed for charges to be authorised is significant.

That the CPS acknowledged the comprehensive nature of the investigation demonstrates that all other potential suspects were eliminated....so that's all the ones discussed on WS and many that we are not aware of.
 
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I’d just like to say that the Met did (in a public statement) say they’d leave no stone unturned in an effort to bring the SJL case to a conclusion.
Now I know all about the constraints the police work under, however, this doesn’t stop them following other (possibly remote) alternative lines of enquiry other than JC.
Sometimes you have to accept that there might just be another possibility other than JC.

But other lines of enquiry were followed and possible identified suspects eliminated. This was necessary for the case file to be sent to the CPS for a decision on charging JC.

You can't possibly submit a file to the CPS for decision if there are reasonable outstanding lines of enquiry. They would just return it with advice for further investigation.

The reason being that if charged, a defence barrister would have a field day with an incomplete investigation. The rules of disclosure on account of it being something that could undermine the prosecution case would put such information in the defence domain.

The CPS acknowledged that the police had left no stone unturned. This is an affirmation that all other identified persons who could be suspects were eliminated.
 
I am sure it’s been said multiple times the last person Suzy spoke to was the wife of CV at the POW before she left the office?
I'm not sure we know this, do we? There were clearly two calls but I am not sure it has been established who took which.
 
I’d just like to say that the Met did (in a public statement) say they’d leave no stone unturned in an effort to bring the SJL case to a conclusion.
Now I know all about the constraints the police work under, however, this doesn’t stop them following other (possibly remote) alternative lines of enquiry other than JC.
Sometimes you have to accept that there might just be another possibility other than JC.
One has to parse what that claim actually means. It means they will leave no stone unturned in trying to convict JC, because they're not looking for anyone else. See and cf. their comments when their "case" against Colin Stagg was thrown out. They weren't looking for anyone else then, either. A few years later Robert Napper was jailed.

It does not mean they're open to other hypotheses.
 
The CPS acknowledged that the police had left no stone unturned. This is an affirmation that all other identified persons who could be suspects were eliminated.
Which is fatally undermined by JD's admission to DV that the only people considered as suspects were 1/ people SJL knew who 2/ were in Fulham that day.

If SJL left Fulham at lunchtime and went elsewhere, whomever she met has never been a suspect. BW knew SJL and saw her heading towards Hammersmith. Nobody in Hammersmith has ever been a suspect, according to JD.

Oops.
 
So a court hearing starts in which an order is made to ban the reporting of. Case starts, no journos present ...

CV sues DV for defamation, and is awarded £10 million plus costs.

DV loses everything including his dog!

And absolutely nothing is achieved forwarding this case ....
And of course if there were a reported hearing, and you doubled down on a lot of defamatory stuff that you then failed to stand up, you run the risk that a dim view is taken and that the damages award is greater.
 
So a court hearing starts in which an order is made to ban the reporting of. Case starts, no journos present ...

CV sues DV for defamation, and is awardedlion plus costs.

DV loses everything including his dog!

And absolutely nothing is achieved forwarding this case ....
The thing is that hundreds of thousands of pounds are needed to take a defamation case to court.

Maybe some young buck or doe in the legal profession, wanting to make a name for themselves, would work pro bono. I doubt if crowd funding would cough up the amount required.

Hey the Met Police did it with JC, why doesn't DV put his reputation on the line to prove what a star he is.

If he has the proof he claims to have and has identified the offender then he would be able to defend any claim. I very much doubt if the court papers would land on his doormat though.
 
Which is fatally undermined by JD's admission to DV that the only people considered as suspects were 1/ people SJL knew who 2/ were in Fulham that day.

If SJL left Fulham at lunchtime and went elsewhere, whomever she met has never been a suspect. BW knew SJL and saw her heading towards Hammersmith. Nobody in Hammersmith has ever been a suspect, according to JD.

Oops.

The perfectly reasonable psychology of offender behaviours highlights that an abduction of a female, such as SJL, in a Fulham Street at lunchtime on a working Monday would require the victim to go willingly with the offender into a situation in which she could be overpowered.

This premise of offender behaviour leads us to the conclusion that SJL must have known the offender. Consequently this does not rule out VC, the PoW, Putney or Hammersmith or anywhere else in the locality where she may have gone to meet someone, from being reasonable lines of enquiry..

For precisely these reasons VC will have been a potential witness. The police were satisfied that he was only ever a potential witness and had no reason to suspect him of any involvement.

JD may well have said that JC was the only suspect the police ever had. What this statement does not say is the definitive criteria the police had before identifying someone as a suspect.

In major investigations where there are no obvious suspects, then people are treated as witnesses and spoken to as witnesses, while the police endeavour to eliminate them with alibi's/corroborating evidence or firming up their suspected involvement.

Thus is for very good operational reasons.....it's called the custody clock and when it starts ticking the police are really up against it in serious crime investigations.

<modsnip: Personalizing is not allowed>
 
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The DV narrative depends totally on the PoW being closed that Monday, if it was then only CV & his partner would know about what happened.
If (to fit with DV’s theory) CV’s partner was out at the time only CV would know what really happened.
The thing is that we don't actually know what happened at the PoW that afternoon. MH and his wife attended the stocktake then left and so did the stocktaker, by about 12.

The staff as far as we know then consisted of CV, KF and Brendon X the cellarman. The latter may or not have been around. KF did the food, but if there was a stocktake that morning was there any food to serve? How busy was a suburban pub on a Monday lunchtime?

In '85 I worked in a London suburban bar / restaurant for a summer. It had five bar staff and three cocktail waitresses in the evenings just in the bar. At lunchtimes, however, they only had one barman in because it was dead. I don't ever recall serving a customer, and it was the most booooooring shift to get because you were there on your own. There wasn't enough work even for one, so you ended up cleaning out the bottle racks and whatnot. The pay scales for barmen versus waiters versus cooks were different so you would not be assigned to help in the kitchen.

It makes me wonder whether the PoW was equally dead. School holidays have started, people are away, nobody's coming in of a lunchtime...why bother opening / staying open?

We'd need to hear from the other two who were there and probably from MH on what he can remember of how busy Mondays were in general. DV's idea that she came to harm at the PoW clearly relies on it being closed, but I am not at all sure we can be categoric that it was open.
 
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The perfectly reasonable psychology of offender behaviours highlights that an abduction of a female, such as SJL, in a Fulham Street at lunchtime on a working Monday would require the victim to go willingly with the offender into a situation in which she could be overpowered.

This premise of offender behaviour leads us to the conclusion that SJL must have known the offender. Consequently this does not rule out VC, the PoW, Putney or Hammersmith or anywhere else in the locality where she may have gone to meet someone, from being reasonable lines of enquiry..

For precisely these reasons VC will have been a potential witness. The police were satisfied that he was only ever a potential witness and had no reason to suspect him of any involvement.

JD may well have said that JC was the only suspect the police ever had. What this statement does not say is the definitive criteria the police had before identifying someone as a suspect.

In major investigations where there are no obvious suspects, then people are treated as witnesses and spoken to as witnesses, while the police endeavour to eliminate them with alibi's/corroborating evidence or firming up their suspected involvement.

Thus is for very good operational reasons.....it's called the custody clock and when it starts ticking the police are really up against it in serious crime investigations.

<modsnip: Personalizing is not allowed>
AS points out that when CV was interviewed they were uncomfortable with him. The words from the book say “blatantly honest”, but they were uneasy about him.
One contradicts the other. Maybe his superiors should have listened to him?
 
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The thing is that we don't actually know what happened at the PoW that afternoon. MH and his wife attended the stocktake then left and so did the stocktaker, by about 12.

The staff as far as we know then consisted of CV, KF and Brendon X the cellarman. The latter may or not have been around. KF did the food, but if there was a stocktake that morning was there any food to serve? How busy was a suburban pub on a Monday lunchtime?

In '85 I worked in a London suburban bar / restaurant for a summer. It had five bar staff and three cocktail waitresses in the evenings just in the bar. At lunchtimes, however, they only had one barman in because it was dead. I don't ever recall serving a customer, and it was the most booooooring shift to get because you were there on your own. There wasn't enough work even for one, so you ended up cleaning out the bottle racks and whatnot. The pay scales for barmen versus waiters versus cooks were different so you would not be assigned to help in the kitchen.

It makes me wonder whether the PoW was equally dead. School holidays have started, people are away, nobody's coming in of a lunchtime...why bother opening / staying open?

We'd need to hear from the other two who were there and probably from MH on what he can remember of how busy Mondays were in general. DV's idea that she came to harm at the PoW clearly relies on it being closed, but I am not at all sure we can be categoric that it was open.
When you look at the details of this, it points towards SJL getting out of her car to complete a small task and not getting back in.
Going into the PoW to pick up her things is one such task.
Alternatively, being abducted by two perpetrators is also a possibility, they would need to quickly get her into another car and then drive her car away.
Some will say this is impossible on a busy London street at lunchtime. However, it is possible and has been done. Someone who exhibits a marauder profile would have no problem doing this.
This case has so much information in the public domain it can be very confusing. The only way to make any sense of it all is to have a theory and objectively study the details.
Once it appears to hold water you need in some way to confirm or reject it. The PoW DV narrative is one such theory, it must be looked at and eliminated.
Just my view.
 
On a lighter note and as the anniversary of July 28 approaches.

Here is a few minutes of actual BBC1 broadcast from just before 8pm that Monday.

 
Do you know that Sturgis had a rear entrance with direct access to Radipole Road?

There is no indication that there would have been on StreetView.
I have raised the question of a possible rear entrance previously.

Can I ask what street year you are looking at please as Google street view only appears to goes back as far as 2008 which is some 22 after the crime.
 
The Top of the Pops countdown, broadcast on the Thursday prior to the weekend / Monday ....

 
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