UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #5

[Salah11]

Apparently it was forensicated, but not until the next day. The presence or otherwise of her fingerprints cannot have been known about by 2pm on the Tuesday. But that was when the press conference took place at which the police announced that SJL had been seen at 37SR. This was not what their star witness had said, and it was before they had checked other evidence that might have undermined this claim - fingerprints inside, the whereabouts of the actual keys, and so on.

The obvious reason to forensicate it would be that if she really went there, then you'd want to know who else did so, too. It would be trivial to obtain her fingerprints. They'd be on her desk phone, or on items in her handbag, or on personal belongings such as her diary and cheque book - they would be obtainable from something.

I recall hearing / reading, but cannot for the life of me recall where, that the house was fingerprinted and no trace of her found. It would be completely perverse, if her prints were found inside along with Cannan's, for the CPS to insist that there was no evident link between them.

It was logical to LE at that stage she had gone there. It was written in her diary and then a man and a woman are seen outside looking at the property so it looks like a showing. They had no reason to suspect otherwise at that stage.

But that tunnel vision becomes a issue as no doubt new tips and leads come in.

MOO

 

[WestLondoner]

It was logical to LE at that stage she had gone there. It was written in her diary and then a man and a woman are seen outside looking at the property so it looks like a showing. They had no reason to suspect otherwise at that stage.

But that tunnel vision becomes a issue as no doubt new tips and leads come in.

MOO

Agree (and welcome to the discussion BTW). However, as DV points out, you really would think someone would have asked MG and colleague how they had got into the property to look for SJL if she really had gone there taking the keys. There is not a single contemporary mention of there being multiple sets, it wasn't normal practice to have more than one, and if there were still a set in the office, who was it who asserted that this was the extra set out of two that they had for that property? Who swore to that off the top of their head?

The next problem is that HR did not say he saw SJL; he said he saw a blonde and a man who was about 5'8" or 9" emerging from the house. It was the police who said this was SJL. How were they emerging if she didn't have the keys? If she did, well, did she leave any prints? The perp could have walked around not touching anything, but someone had to open doors, and if it wasn't him, it was her. Yet we never hear that there was fingerprint evidence proving a visit by her. If there are no prints then she was never inside, which means HR cannot have seen her emerging.

The other witness usually cited, ND, said he saw a couple but it could have been 4pm. HR identified a 44-year-old Belgian as Mr Kipper. Taken together it looks IMO like HR has no idea what he saw or when he saw it, and that ND probably saw the search party, MG and colleague, not SJL herself.

Another strike against the involvement of the 5'8" man supposedly seen outside is that the Fiesta's seat was found pushed all the way back. A man of that height would not need to do this IMO. If he did, then given that this is the average male height, it would mean that 50% of males would find the front seat of a Fiesta cramped. From what I recall of small cars, the front seats fit anyone and it's the occasional seats in the back where space is saved. So the driver of the car probably wasn't anyone of the height of the man supposedly seen outside 37SR.

Cannan was never put on an ID parade and the case against him (that the CPS does not buy) consists of insinuation and perfect recall decades after the fact. The only bit of "evidence" that he was involved is the opinion of some police officers that one of the artists' sketches looks like him.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Agree (and welcome to the discussion BTW). However, as DV points out, you really would think someone would have asked MG and colleague how they had got into the property to look for SJL if she really had gone there taking the keys. There is not a single contemporary mention of there being multiple sets, it wasn't normal practice to have more than one, and if there were still a set in the office, who was it who asserted that this was the extra set out of two that they had for that property? Who swore to that off the top of their head?

The next problem is that HR did not say he saw SJL; he said he saw a blonde and a man who was about 5'8" or 9" emerging from the house. It was the police who said this was SJL. How were they emerging if she didn't have the keys? If she did, well, did she leave any prints? The perp could have walked around not touching anything, but someone had to open doors, and if it wasn't him, it was her. Yet we never hear that there was fingerprint evidence proving a visit by her. If there are no prints then she was never inside, which means HR cannot have seen her emerging.

The other witness usually cited, ND, said he saw a couple but it could have been 4pm. HR identified a 44-year-old Belgian as Mr Kipper. Taken together it looks IMO like HR has no idea what he saw or when he saw it, and that ND probably saw the search party, MG and colleague, not SJL herself.

Another strike against the involvement of the 5'8" man supposedly seen outside is that the Fiesta's seat was found pushed all the way back. A man of that height would not need to do this IMO. If he did, then given that this is the average male height, it would mean that 50% of males would find the front seat of a Fiesta cramped. From what I recall of small cars, the front seats fit anyone and it's the occasional seats in the back where space is saved. So the driver of the car probably wasn't anyone of the height of the man supposedly seen outside 37SR.

Cannan was never put on an ID parade and the case against him (that the CPS does not buy) consists of insinuation and perfect recall decades after the fact. The only bit of "evidence" that he was involved is the opinion of some police officers that one of the artists' sketches looks like him.

I would *really* badly love to know what all of SJL's former work colleagues, associates, friends, boyfriends, lovers, house mate, neighbours, local contacts and everyone who was part of her life back then thinks about this crime now after all these years. Now that her parents are deceased and such time has gone by with no leads and new information and not a trace of SJL, what are their thoughts after all this time?

It would be so interesting to know their private thoughts, feelings, and speculations with hindsight. I can't imagine what everyone in the Sturgis office said about it, they must have surely debated it to death, wondering and speculating - how would you ever stop? I wonder if anyone had any secret ideas they've never divulged?

 

[Terryb808]

I would *really* badly love to know what all of SJL's former work colleagues, associates, friends, boyfriends, lovers, house mate, neighbours, local contacts and everyone who was part of her life back then thinks about this crime now after all these years. Now that her parents are deceased and such time has gone by with no leads and new information and not a trace of SJL, what are their thoughts after all this time?

It would be so interesting to know their private thoughts, feelings, and speculations with hindsight. I can't imagine what everyone in the Sturgis office said about it, they must have surely debated it to death, wondering and speculating - how would you ever stop? I wonder if anyone had any secret ideas they've never divulged?

This would be incredibly interesting and being so close at the time might just provide a light bulb moment missing in the last 37 years.
Sadly a mammoth task that is probably impossible, DV went partially down this route, spend 5 years on it.
To be of value whatever they revealed would need to be disclosed to all. Ten people reading the same account will have very different interpretations, all of value.

 

[WestLondoner]

I would *really* badly love to know what all of SJL's former work colleagues, associates, friends, boyfriends, lovers, house mate, neighbours, local contacts and everyone who was part of her life back then thinks about this crime now after all these years. Now that her parents are deceased and such time has gone by with no leads and new information and not a trace of SJL, what are their thoughts after all this time?

It would be so interesting to know their private thoughts, feelings, and speculations with hindsight. I can't imagine what everyone in the Sturgis office said about it, they must have surely debated it to death, wondering and speculating - how would you ever stop? I wonder if anyone had any secret ideas they've never divulged?

I'd love it if Netflix or someone similar did a four- or six-parter on this like they did with Madeleine McCann. It would need to start from scratch, try to understand or at least lay out what was going on in SJL's life before she disappeared, and look at everything and everyone.

Nothing made for TV on this case in 30 years has attempted anything of the kind. They just start with the same old police talking heads saying Cannan dunnit, and presenting a steaming pile of insinuation in "support". These and the various whack job hack writers need to be debunked.

Like you I'd be really interested to hear what the circle now think happened. I'd also like someone to interview AL again and ask him why he now insists he and SJL never went to the PoW when he's in a documentary saying they were there on the Friday.

I also wonder if the police do in fact know who really did this, but for some reason aren't saying.

 

[RichardKimble]

I'd love it if Netflix or someone similar did a four- or six-parter on this like they did with Madeleine McCann. It would need to start from scratch, try to understand or at least lay out what was going on in SJL's life before she disappeared, and look at everything and everyone.

Nothing made for TV on this case in 30 years has attempted anything of the kind. They just start with the same old police talking heads saying Cannan dunnit, and presenting a steaming pile of insinuation in "support". These and the various whack job hack writers need to be debunked.

Like you I'd be really interested to hear what the circle now think happened. I'd also like someone to interview AL again and ask him why he now insists he and SJL never went to the PoW when he's in a documentary saying they were there on the Friday.

I also wonder if the police do in fact know who really did this, but for some reason aren't saying.

Channel 4 dispatch's way back in Oct 2007 did the best docu on the McCann case imo.

 

[RichardKimble]

I also wonder if the police do in fact know who really did this, but for some reason aren't saying.

JD seemed convinced even after the CPS threw it out.

 

[Salah11]

I'd love it if Netflix or someone similar did a four- or six-parter on this like they did with Madeleine McCann. It would need to start from scratch, try to understand or at least lay out what was going on in SJL's life before she disappeared, and look at everything and everyone.

Nothing made for TV on this case in 30 years has attempted anything of the kind. They just start with the same old police talking heads saying Cannan dunnit, and presenting a steaming pile of insinuation in "support". These and the various whack job hack writers need to be debunked.

Like you I'd be really interested to hear what the circle now think happened. I'd also like someone to interview AL again and ask him why he now insists he and SJL never went to the PoW when he's in a documentary saying they were there on the Friday.

I also wonder if the police do in fact know who really did this, but for some reason aren't saying.

The problem is you couldn’t even fill a hour show with what is factually known.

She left the office and vanished off the face of the earth. You could write it all on the back of a stamp.

 

[Terryb808]

The problem is you couldn’t even fill a hour show with what is factually known.

She left the office and vanished off the face of the earth. You could write it all on the back of a stamp.

I don’t think that’s what #westlondoner is getting at, Suzy had a very eventful, if short life.
Documenting this, the events in the week or weeks before and interviews with as many of her friends/ relatives would easily fill a short series.
To those of us who know a lot about the case it would provide possible clues not looked at before.
As said previously, if they all gave their views on what they think happened, it would be really interesting and far better than any TV doc done before.
Regarding the comment about the police knows who is really responsible, if they did, and like with JC have no proof, they can’t say anything.
Whoever is responsible left no clues at all, they’re probably going to take their secret to the grave.

 

[WestLondoner]

The problem is you couldn’t even fill a hour show with what is factually known.

She left the office and vanished off the face of the earth. You could write it all on the back of a stamp.

The same could be said of Madeleine McCann though, no? She disappeared and there is really no clue to what happened.

For my money a docu would look as follows:

1/ background and early life; social climbing; rapid turnover of blokes; the weekend before she disappeared. The day she disappeared; where she might have been going; where she was seen versus alleged to have been seen; all the people who gave conflicting accounts of Shorrolds; the movements of her car and who was driving it

2/ the investigation, its errors and assumptions; the agenda of the Lamplughs, their efforts at managing her reputation, editing the evidence the police saw, and misdirecting the press (eg conducting their own press conferences, the out of date brunette studio photos they released); how Cannan came to be installed as the prime suspect - DL's role in pushing this

3/ the relationship between Cannan and the Lamplugh's solicitor, the focus of the "reinvestigation" that wasn't, i.e. it was about making it fit him; the police PR campaign against him and failure to stand up any case. The people and evidence we never hear about that debunk the police case

4/ Colin Stagg, Barry George, Daniel Morgan, Jean Charles de Menezes, Sarah Everard - how the police then and now investigate cases, their success rate, and how they react to criticism; alternative theories - the PoW; the property deal; the millionaire friend who wasn't who went bankrupt 8 days later; the unknown man pressuring her; what she and her parents really spoke about on Sunday night; what people close to her then think of it all now; AL's changing story

If there's enough for 5+ WS threads, there's enough for a documentary....

 

[Zuleika]

The same could be said of Madeleine McCann though, no? She disappeared and there is really no clue to what happened.

For my money a docu would look as follows:

1/ background and early life; social climbing; rapid turnover of blokes; the weekend before she disappeared. The day she disappeared; where she might have been going; where she was seen versus alleged to have been seen; all the people who gave conflicting accounts of Shorrolds; the movements of her car and who was driving it

2/ the investigation, its errors and assumptions; the agenda of the Lamplughs, their efforts at managing her reputation, editing the evidence the police saw, and misdirecting the press (eg conducting their own press conferences, the out of date brunette studio photos they released); how Cannan came to be installed as the prime suspect - DL's role in pushing this

3/ the relationship between Cannan and the Lamplugh's solicitor, the focus of the "reinvestigation" that wasn't, i.e. it was about making it fit him; the police PR campaign against him and failure to stand up any case. The people and evidence we never hear about that debunk the police case

4/ Colin Stagg, Barry George, Daniel Morgan, Jean Charles de Menezes, Sarah Everard - how the police then and now investigate cases, their success rate, and how they react to criticism; alternative theories - the PoW; the property deal; the millionaire friend who wasn't who went bankrupt 8 days later; the unknown man pressuring her; what she and her parents really spoke about on Sunday night; what people close to her then think of it all now; AL's changing story

If there's enough for 5+ WS threads, there's enough for a documentary....

Why nor approach Ch5 documentary produducers with this suggestion?

 

[Salah11]

The same could be said of Madeleine McCann though, no? She disappeared and there is really no clue to what happened.

For my money a docu would look as follows:

1/ background and early life; social climbing; rapid turnover of blokes; the weekend before she disappeared. The day she disappeared; where she might have been going; where she was seen versus alleged to have been seen; all the people who gave conflicting accounts of Shorrolds; the movements of her car and who was driving it

2/ the investigation, its errors and assumptions; the agenda of the Lamplughs, their efforts at managing her reputation, editing the evidence the police saw, and misdirecting the press (eg conducting their own press conferences, the out of date brunette studio photos they released); how Cannan came to be installed as the prime suspect - DL's role in pushing this

3/ the relationship between Cannan and the Lamplugh's solicitor, the focus of the "reinvestigation" that wasn't, i.e. it was about making it fit him; the police PR campaign against him and failure to stand up any case. The people and evidence we never hear about that debunk the police case

4/ Colin Stagg, Barry George, Daniel Morgan, Jean Charles de Menezes, Sarah Everard - how the police then and now investigate cases, their success rate, and how they react to criticism; alternative theories - the PoW; the property deal; the millionaire friend who wasn't who went bankrupt 8 days later; the unknown man pressuring her; what she and her parents really spoke about on Sunday night; what people close to her then think of it all now; AL's changing story

If there's enough for 5+ WS threads, there's enough for a documentary....

Who Would realistically want to take part after 35 years and how many are dead like her parents and then add in memory fades with time?

Look how long it took to write that book from DV and the years put in and even he couldn’t find out any real answers. He made up some bogus theory to then sell it imo

 

[Crusader21]

Look how long it took to write that book from DV and the years put in and even he couldn’t find out any real answers. He made up some bogus theory to then sell it imo

That's an interesting take on DV ..

DV takes a year or two out, hires a sidekick and spends a bit of his own money investigating this case ...

Comes up with nothing, supplies the cops with a file that contains nothing.

Needs to recoup some of his loses so comes up with 'some bogus theory'. Puts his dreamed up fiction in a book and recovers some of his spend on the case ...

You may be right .....

 

[RichardKimble]

The problem is you couldn’t even fill a hour show with what is factually known.

She left the office and vanished off the face of the earth. You could write it all on the back of a stamp.

Sadly that is the truth of it, where was the scene of crime, was it 37SR, her car or possibly the POW, forensically there is nothing that links JC with SJL. Just thinking out loud here look how close Cashman came to getting away from killing the child in her own house, only the bravery of the witness who had a conscience, put him away. Lamplugh case , if more than one person involved they must be loyal to one another, singular person , extremely lucky.

 

[Crusader21]

Back to the fiesta, I wonder just was the degree of the forensic check on the car?

It was removed from Stevenage Rd (Tues or Weds) taken to be police checked, before appearing back (for the reconstructions) driven by a policewomen lookalike outside Sturgis, and then again on Stevenage Rd in a short turn around of a few days.

Was the fiesta just given the most cusory of checks?

 

[NorthParade]

Sadly that is the truth of it, where was the scene of crime, was it 37SR, her car or possibly the POW, forensically there is nothing that links JC with SJL. Just thinking out loud here look how close Cashman came to getting away from killing the child in her own house, only the bravery of the witness who had a conscience, put him away. Lamplugh case , if more than one person involved they must be loyal to one another, singular person , extremely lucky.

No idea whether there is more than one involved here, but loyalty/fear of repercussions does seem to be the problem in the most similar unsolved British case, that of Claudia Lawrence. Without forensics or witnesses it’s fiendishly hard to get a result.

 

[Crusader21]

Just thinking out loud here look how close Cashman came to getting away from killing the child in her own house, only the bravery of the witness who had a conscience, put him away. Lamplugh case , if more than one person involved they must be loyal to one another, singular person , extremely lucky.

I'm assuming that the female witness will be under police witness protection, moved to different part of the country, new id etc.

But as Cashman's assets haven't been confiscated, can he afford to pay for her (from within prison), to be tracked down? These drug dealers are very wealthy people ...

Back to SL, if someone else knows what happened it may imo, be down to fear rather than loyalty that they haven't came forward ....

 

[Terryb808]

I'm assuming that the female witness will be under police witness protection, moved to different part of the country, new id etc.

But as Cashman's assets haven't been confiscated, can he afford to pay for her (from within prison), to be tracked down? These drug dealers are very wealthy people ...

Back to SL, if someone else knows what happened it may imo, be down to fear rather than loyalty that they haven't came forward ....

In that case when the thread ends, I’d the perpetrator dies, maybe they’ll speak (if they out live him).
IMO for this to remain unsolved for so long the odds are only one perpetrator was involved, and nothing’s going to make him speak out now.

 

[Salah11]

I have often wondered if more than one person was involved in this case as it would be pretty hard to pull off.

There seems to be loads of moving parts for only one person to pull this off.

 

[WestLondoner]

I have often wondered if more than one person was involved in this case as it would be pretty hard to pull off.

There seems to be loads of moving parts for only one person to pull this off.

Agreed, and a qualitative argument against this being Cannan is look at what a complete and utter t1t the man is. He raped a woman in her car and left forensic evidence, he had SB's car and a fingerprint at his flat, he carried her tax disc around...yet before that, he was the master criminal who took SJL and never left a trace.