UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #5

[WestLondoner]

Back to the fiesta, I wonder just was the degree of the forensic check on the car?

It was removed from Stevenage Rd (Tues or Weds) taken to be police checked, before appearing back (for the reconstructions) driven by a policewomen lookalike outside Sturgis, and then again on Stevenage Rd in a short turn around of a few days.

Was the fiesta just given the most cusory of checks?

In 1986 it would have been fingerprints and fibres I would think. Once they'd done that they had all the evidence the car was ever going to yield, or so it was then assumed.

 

[WestLondoner]

Without forensics or witnesses it’s fiendishly hard to get a result.

Without forensics, witnesses, a body or a definite crime scene it's even harder, I would think.

 

[WestLondoner]

Why nor approach Ch5 documentary produducers with this suggestion?

My SO used to be a freelance documentary maker - she used to make salacious documentaries about Restoration actress-tarts and what not. It is very hard. You need the right contact to pitch your idea, and your idea needs to be very well elaborated when you do, otherwise if it's a good one, there's a strong chance it simply gets nicked and they say it was their idea and yours was just similar.

You've also got to give them a rough production cost, which it's in your own interest for it to stick to because her production fee was typically 15% of that. If the cost doubles you don't get twice the money, you may not even get the original 15%.

Who Would realistically want to take part after 35 years and how many are dead like her parents and then add in memory fades with time?

Well, the police are able to rustle up people who can remember 30 years later and with perfect recall that they saw Cannan looking in Sturgis' window at 3pm on Sunday 27th July 1986. Personally I'd check their perfect recall by asking them who was on Top of the Pops on Thursday 31 July. It's not as long ago as the Sunday, so if they can remember the Sunday they should be able to remember Thursday. It's on the basis of stuff like this that the police reckon he dunnit. So your docu would just need a few such talking heads.

 

[Terryb808]

I have often wondered if more than one person was involved in this case as it would be pretty hard to pull off.

There seems to be loads of moving parts for only one person to pull this off.

Check out the Richmond Rapist from 1986, in fact active in July 86. You can find the news articles at the British News Archive.
You’ll find that he kidnapped a victim in Fulham, drove to Epping Forest to commit his crime and evaded detection.
Single perpetrator scenario, police suspected he also raped a victim in Putney Bridge underground toilets, broad daylight.

 

[Salah11]

Check out the Richmond Rapist from 1986, in fact active in July 86. You can find the news articles at the British News Archive.
You’ll find that he kidnapped a victim in Fulham, drove to Epping Forest to commit his crime and evaded detection.
Single perpetrator scenario, police suspected he also raped a victim in Putney Bridge underground toilets, broad daylight.

I still think it’s Risky for whoever did this to have to dump Suzy’s car.

There could of been somebody who ditched the car while somebody else took Suzy to a location.

It’s still strange she was completely subdued and nobody noticed anything out of the ordinary.

Does that point to somebody she knew and trusted and she let her guard down?!


So many unanswered questions and unfortunately we will never likely know.

moo

 

[Terryb808]

I still think it’s Risky for whoever did this to have to dump Suzy’s car.

There could of been somebody who ditched the car while somebody else took Suzy to a location.

It’s still strange she was completely subdued and nobody noticed anything out of the ordinary.

Does that point to somebody she knew and trusted and she let her guard down?!


So many unanswered questions and unfortunately we will never likely know.

moo

Your scenario fits The Railway Killers, while it’s not their normal MO, I’ve read somewhere (unfortunately can’t recall where) that they had discussed abducting and keeping the victim for a longer period.
Coincidentally one of them looks remarkably like the James Galway man in the Crimewatch reconstruction.
They also had their skill required to subdue their victims quickly & quietly.
I agree, why risk bringing the car back to Fulham, IMO it was driven a short distance after Suzy was either abducted, or murdered.

 

[Salah11]

Your scenario fits The Railway Killers, while it’s not their normal MO, I’ve read somewhere (unfortunately can’t recall where) that they had discussed abducting and keeping the victim for a longer period.
Coincidentally one of them looks remarkably like the James Galway man in the Crimewatch reconstruction.
They also had their skill required to subdue their victims quickly & quietly.
I agree, why risk bringing the car back to Fulham, IMO it was driven a short distance after Suzy was either abducted, or murdered.

Yes the car is the head scratcher because they are risking being seen with the car while dumping it.

So that would indicate that wherever Suzy went with the car was a clue to who did this imo

Because if it was as simple as she went to Shorrolds road and showed a property and then got kidnapped why risk taking her car and ditching it because it was known she was going there.

 

[WestLondoner]

Yes the car is the head scratcher because they are risking being seen with the car while dumping it.

So that would indicate that wherever Suzy went with the car was a clue to who did this imo

Because if it was as simple as she went to Shorrolds road and showed a property and then got kidnapped why risk taking her car and ditching it because it was known she was going there.

The car is indeed a problem - several actually. First off, the seat was pushed all the way back meaning it was last driven by someone taller than the person allegedly seen outside 37SR. So that person, whoever he was, didn’t drive her car there (this is partly why I think the sighting was in fact of Suzy’s boss during his later visit).

Secondly, the car’s arrival opposite 123SR can’t be accurately timed. There are sightings of the car at noon, yet SJL did not leave the office until 12.40. WJ’s sighting puts it there at about 12.50. BW’s sighting puts SJL in her car in the Fulham Palace Road at 2.30. A bloke looking like James Galway got into a cab around the corner from 123SR at about 3 and said he’d just seen a couple “having a right ruck”. Two BT workers working right next to where the car was seen did not notice anything all day, however, and left at 4pm. At 5pm the owner of the garage it was partly blocking noticed it. All we can say for sure, then, is that it was there by 5pm.

Third, if you were going to abduct her from SR, why not just do so right there, and abandon the car? Why create two places where witnesses could see what you are doing? If it was a planned abduction, and she knew you, why not just ambush her where she had parked near Sturgis, and leave her car there?

Fourth, was SJL in the car? The seat position says not, the passenger door was locked while the driver door was left open, and her purse was left in the door pocket. That says the car had only the driver in it, and it wasn’t her. But there were no unidentified fingerprints inside and it had not been wiped down. So the driver either wore gloves (in July?) or didn't need to avoid leaving his fingerprints because they were easily explained.

In this context, DV’s hypothesis makes some sense. If she went to the PoW and her car were found there, that places her at or near the pub, and the game’s up. So anyone who killed her there would have to move the car pronto. If you look at the map, where it was dumped was basically the first left off the first left after you cross the river. If you’re driving an unfamiliar car in an unfamiliar place, you might well dump it thus.

 

[Terryb808]

The car is indeed a problem - several actually. First off, the seat was pushed all the way back meaning it was last driven by someone taller than the person allegedly seen outside 37SR. So that person, whoever he was, didn’t drive her car there (this is partly why I think the sighting was in fact of Suzy’s boss during his later visit).

Secondly, the car’s arrival opposite 123SR can’t be accurately timed. There are sightings of the car at noon, yet SJL did not leave the office until 12.40. WJ’s sighting puts it there at about 12.50. BW’s sighting puts SJL in her car in the Fulham Palace Road at 2.30. A bloke looking like James Galway got into a cab around the corner from 123SR at about 3 and said he’d just seen a couple “having a right ruck”. Two BT workers working right next to where the car was seen did not notice anything all day, however, and left at 4pm. At 5pm the owner of the garage it was partly blocking noticed it. All we can say for sure, then, is that it was there by 5pm.

Third, if you were going to abduct her from SR, why not just do so right there, and abandon the car? Why create two places where witnesses could see what you are doing? If it was a planned abduction, and she knew you, why not just ambush her where she had parked near Sturgis, and leave her car there?

Fourth, was SJL in the car? The seat position says not, the passenger door was locked while the driver door was left open, and her purse was left in the door pocket. That says the car had only the driver in it, and it wasn’t her. But there were no unidentified fingerprints inside and it had not been wiped down. So the driver either wore gloves (in July?) or didn't need to avoid leaving his fingerprints because they were easily explained.

In this context, DV’s hypothesis makes some sense. If she went to the PoW and her car were found there, that places her at or near the pub, and the game’s up. So anyone who killed her there would have to move the car pronto. If you look at the map, where it was dumped was basically the first left off the first left after you cross the river. If you’re driving an unfamiliar car in an unfamiliar place, you might well dump it thus.

Excellent, Suzy’s car is the key to solving this. Going against the current JC didn’t do it trend, as part of his criminal kit was a pair of cotton gloves. This saved him needing to wipe everything clean. He wasn’t inept in every aspect, just most of them.

 

[WestLondoner]

Excellent, Suzy’s car is the key to solving this. Going against the current JC didn’t do it trend, as part of his criminal kit was a pair of cotton gloves. This saved him needing to wipe everything clean. He wasn’t inept in every aspect, just most of them.

The height of the man HR saw outside 37SR is also consistent with JC, as far as I can tell. OTOH, that height is inconsistent with the Fiesta's seat position, which calls into question whether the 5'8" was the driver.

 

[WestLondoner]

This is quite interesting - via LinkedIn I've found where JD now is. He has things to say about SJL.

Jim Dickie QPM, MSyl - BGP Global Services

Jim has enjoyed a challenging and successful career in both the public and corporate sector. Prior to joining BGP, Jim was Head of Investigations and Crisis Management for Vodafone. This followed a successful career with London’s Metropolitan Police from where he retired as a detective...

www.bgpglobalservices.com

"New evidence indicates that John Cannan, the prime suspect was seen throwing a suitcase into a canal* around the time of her disappearance.

Jim Dickie, BGP’s Head of Investigations, who also led the re-investigation into her disappearance believes this sighting to be credible**"

* it isn't new and it really doesn't
** can't think why

There's an email address for him. I wonder if he'd settle a few questions if one asked him nicely?

 

[Salah11]

Who drove the car before Suzy that morning?

Just wondering about the height of that person.

 

[WestLondoner]

Who drove the car before Suzy that morning?

Just wondering about the height of that person.

James Calvert, aka JC (but not that JC). Andrew Stephen describes him as "a small man" and hence not the driver.

 

[Terryb808]

James Calvert, aka JC (but not that JC). Andrew Stephen describes him as "a small man" and hence not the driver.

He’s the same height as Suzy and didn’t need to change the seat position.

 

[Pinkizzy]

This is quite interesting - via LinkedIn I've found where JD now is. He has things to say about SJL.

Jim Dickie QPM, MSyl - BGP Global Services

Jim has enjoyed a challenging and successful career in both the public and corporate sector. Prior to joining BGP, Jim was Head of Investigations and Crisis Management for Vodafone. This followed a successful career with London’s Metropolitan Police from where he retired as a detective...

www.bgpglobalservices.com

"New evidence indicates that John Cannan, the prime suspect was seen throwing a suitcase into a canal* around the time of her disappearance.

Jim Dickie, BGP’s Head of Investigations, who also led the re-investigation into her disappearance believes this sighting to be credible**"

* it isn't new and it really doesn't
** can't think why

There's an email address for him. I wonder if he'd settle a few questions if one asked him nicely?

We should send one email, who's willing to compose it? We don't want 10 or so emails asking the same thing.

 

[WestLondoner]

We should send one email, who's willing to compose it? We don't want 10 or so emails asking the same thing.

Good shout. We probably don't want to sound too sceptical either, otherwise he won't bother to engage.

My questions would be:

1/ Were any of SJL's fingerprints found inside 37SR?
2/ Was the seat position of SJL's car suitable for a man of JC's height?

and optionally, but maybe a bit too far into the weeds,

3/ SJL had told family she was being pressured by someone over money. The husband in an apparently wealthy couple she was discussing a business venture with went bankrupt 8 days later. Do you think there could have been a connection?

 

[RichardKimble]

Final question could be, given that the CPS revealed there is nothing that links JC and SJL together what is your professional opinion rather than personal that JC is the only suspect.

 

[WestLondoner]

Final question could be, given that the CPS revealed there is nothing that links JC and SJL together what is your professional opinion rather than personal that JC is the only suspect.

I suspect he'd literally have to say it was both, otherwise he should not have told the world it was JC back in 2002 or whenever.

For myself I have four broad areas of doubt around the Cannan-dunnit case.

1. Evidence that would corroborate the narrative, such as the car's seat position fitting Cannan or her prints at 37SR, is just not there.
2. The arbitrary exclusion as suspects of people who didn't know her or weren't in Fulham that day overlooks the possibility that she wasn't in Fulham either.
3. ID of both SJL and Cannan at 37SR came from the police's opinion, and was never verified properly by witnesses.
4. The circumstantial case that supposedly points to Cannan falls down if it points to anyone else; and they didn't investigate anyone else.

Maybe a roundabout way of getting to this is to ask him whether other rapists released from WS in early 86, or rapists from that area identified later, had ever been studied to the same extent as Cannan. Or maybe whether he thinks the 2000-2002 terms of reference - implicate or eliminate Cannan - were the right ones?

 

[Terryb808]

I think if the approach is too direct you’ll get no response at all. It’s very likely he’ll have to tow the Mets line on Cannan as he implemented it in the first place.
Like DV he’s only likely to provide responses that support his narrative and in Jim Dickies case the Mets line.
Regarding the car seat, initially I thought it would enable us to pin point the perpetrator.
However, if the perpetrator had a bag, it would have (as I would) put this partially under drivers seat. To exit, move the seat back to access the bag.
Couple of points, according to various books having a bag was one of Cannans traits, also, the James Galway man had a bag.

 

[Crusader21]

I'd love to have a beer or two with JD, all off the record of course!